Imputed Righteousness

[New Guy]

Bobby wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree with you on the “2nd work of grace”. It implies that you can obtain perfection through sanctification while still on earth, at which point you no longer sin. Instead, you only make mistakes. In addition, you can lose your salvation before you are perfect but, you can also be saved again.
Answer to the problem is: Justification means we are redeemed, not that we have not sinned because in fact we still sin.
Sanctification is a life long process where the potter molds us into the vessel he chooses where the redeemed are refined like pure gold.
Lastly is Glorification where we are removed from this world of sin and come in direct contact with God- all things will be forever changed-sin shall be no more.

It is nice to be in agreement with you on something Bobby. This is the process, and I pretty much agree totally. I would add that the sanctification process begins at our justification, and continues until our removal from the world.

I also agree with the typology of the mercy seat, and the blood of Christ being our "covering" for sins. Wouldn't we be accurate to say then that when God sees the blood, He will pass over us? God sees the blood of His Son, we are clothed with Christ. That's what God sees when He looks at us-or the lack of blood and Christ for those outside. I believe this to be true. We are never told God credits His Son's righteousness to our account, and sees His perfect obedience. Christ's perfect obedience makes Him the One true perfect sacrifice, and His shed blood was for our sins. But God still sees us all for what we are-He did Israel, and still does today. Thus the need for repentance when we do sin.

[Bobby]

New Guy wrote:

<quoted text>
It is nice to be in agreement with you on something Bobby. This is the process, and I pretty much agree totally. I would add that the sanctification process begins at our justification, and continues until our removal from the world.
I also agree with the typology of the mercy seat, and the blood of Christ being our "covering" for sins. Wouldn't we be accurate to say then that when God sees the blood, He will pass over us? God sees the blood of His Son, we are clothed with Christ. That's what God sees when He looks at us-or the lack of blood and Christ for those outside. I believe this to be true. We are never told God credits His Son's righteousness to our account, and sees His perfect obedience. Christ's perfect obedience makes Him the One true perfect sacrifice, and His shed blood was for our sins. But God still sees us all for what we are-He did Israel, and still does today. Thus the need for repentance when we do sin.

Yes, Jesus is our passover lamb. Our differences always boil down to coc cardinal doctrines. Things like we are justified by faith but not without water baptism. Christ blood covers past sins but not future sins. Our final salvation depends more on us than on God. Man is born good without sin.

You see I believe our sin condition is so deep that God gives what we need not what we deserve. The coc sees God as a God of wrath even toward believers who sin. I see God as a loving, kind, patient God who will discipline us in a way that he gets the result he is looking for-he does not destroy us in the process especially after the high cost for our redemption-he is not going to lose any of us even while we are in disobedience to him. Those who are the most difficult to love are the very ones who need it the most. If the coc was the judge of heaven and hell they would have an army standing at Heaven's door judging everyone and then telling God who gets in and who does not.

[William]

That last sentence of yours is pure genius. Bravo.

[Dave P]

Once again, do not judge all that attend or preach at a coc of the same beliefs and attitudes as those you dealt with before. Clearly not the same.

I could state that our differences boil down to calvinistic beliefs instead. Really, in a couple of the points you mentioned Bobby, the biggest difference we have is interpretation of what we are saying. Christ's blood doesn't cover future sins? Really, who believes that? But is that conditional or not? That is the question, and John states that IF we confess our sins, He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Final salvation depends more on us than God? Not hardly. The righteous man will scarcely be saved. BTW, if we are sinners, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?

You had a true statement the other day. "If there is an exception to the rule, the rule is busted". Ok that's good, but if we are born sinners totally depraved, that must include babies-no exceptions. I don't believe that, and neither do you, and rightly so. Doesn't this tell you the whole calvinistic system is busted? Paul also told the Corinthians they were washed, sanctified, and justified at the same time.

You are right. Some coc here, we know who they are, probably do have the gumption to tell God who is saved and who enters into the kingdom. I must tell people the truth about how to enter the kingdom or I will never see it myself. Paul was afraid of preaching in vain and ending up disqualified. That is a sobering thought. What I say on Topix I do not take lightly.

[Bobby]

Dave P wrote:

Once again, do not judge all that attend or preach at a coc of the same beliefs and attitudes as those you dealt with before. Clearly not the same.
I could state that our differences boil down to calvinistic beliefs instead. Really, in a couple of the points you mentioned Bobby, the biggest difference we have is interpretation of what we are saying. Christ's blood doesn't cover future sins? Really, who believes that? But is that conditional or not? That is the question, and John states that IF we confess our sins, He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Final salvation depends more on us than God? Not hardly. The righteous man will scarcely be saved. BTW, if we are sinners, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
You had a true statement the other day. "If there is an exception to the rule, the rule is busted". Ok that's good, but if we are born sinners totally depraved, that must include babies-no exceptions. I don't believe that, and neither do you, and rightly so. Doesn't this tell you the whole calvinistic system is busted? Paul also told the Corinthians they were washed, sanctified, and justified at the same time.
You are right. Some coc here, we know who they are, probably do have the gumption to tell God who is saved and who enters into the kingdom. I must tell people the truth about how to enter the kingdom or I will never see it myself. Paul was afraid of preaching in vain and ending up disqualified. That is a sobering thought. What I say on Topix I do not take lightly.

Of course Christ blood covers future sins but not for those who believe we must repent beforehand. That places our salvation in our hands and depends on us to know that we have sinned. We all sin and may not even be aware of it at the time. This is why cocers always end their prayers with forgive us of our sins without being specific.

Let me ask you a question, do you have unconditional love for your wife and and especially your children? If you do and God cannot do the same for you then you are a better father than he is.

You see love is a choice. I have a son in his 40's who is not pleasing me right now. If I were to break off our relationship then I would no longer have any influence on him. I choose to love him in spite of his current situation. He has become one of the top men in a midsize company and has let his money and power go to his head. I will never turn my back on him, even though sometimes I want to.

Saved people are only saved because God is in charge. We cannot go to him and say "God I have followed all of the rules/law, now you owe me salvation". No he doesn't! That is basically what the rich young ruler did. There will always be that one thing we lack. Grace and love prevails- concurs sin. Death hell and the grave is defeated at the cross for those who will have faith.

What is the greatest commandment "love God and second love your neighbor as you love yourself". Living for God becomes a new lifestyle not another system of laws/rules.

[JustChristian]

William wrote:

"So in a spiritual world there is going to be a literal ark?"
I don't know. There was a literal Ark once, and it went somewhere. Revelation indicates that it is in heaven and not on the earth, and it has never been found on earth despite what the History Channel seems to want to tout.
The thing ended up someplace, that much is certain.

Lets see in a world that Christ ask us to come to a Spiritual vs a flesh you claim there will be a combination? What good would the stone laws be in Heaven (spiritual). And what would that do to the teaching of Christ whom fullfilled the Law to then again bring it forth. Will it be on display so those Jews can walk by and say "I told you the Law was still in force". I think there is a good reason it was never found and never will be.

[JustChristian]

Bobby wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, Jesus is our passover lamb. Our differences always boil down to coc cardinal doctrines. Things like we are justified by faith but not without water baptism. Christ blood covers past sins but not future sins. Our final salvation depends more on us than on God. Man is born good without sin.
You see I believe our sin condition is so deep that God gives what we need not what we deserve. The coc sees God as a God of wrath even toward believers who sin. I see God as a loving, kind, patient God who will discipline us in a way that he gets the result he is looking for-he does not destroy us in the process especially after the high cost for our redemption-he is not going to lose any of us even while we are in disobedience to him. Those who are the most difficult to love are the very ones who need it the most. If the coc was the judge of heaven and hell they would have an army standing at Heaven's door judging everyone and then telling God who gets in and who does not.

Wow what a perverted and disgusting view you have of the Body of Christ.

[JustChristian]

Bobby wrote:

<quoted text>
Of course Christ blood covers future sins but not for those who believe we must repent beforehand. That places our salvation in our hands and depends on us to know that we have sinned. We all sin and may not even be aware of it at the time. This is why cocers always end their prayers with forgive us of our sins without being specific.
Let me ask you a question, do you have unconditional love for your wife and and especially your children? If you do and God cannot do the same for you then you are a better father than he is.
You see love is a choice. I have a son in his 40's who is not pleasing me right now. If I were to break off our relationship then I would no longer have any influence on him. I choose to love him in spite of his current situation. He has become one of the top men in a midsize company and has let his money and power go to his head. I will never turn my back on him, even though sometimes I want to.
Saved people are only saved because God is in charge. We cannot go to him and say "God I have followed all of the rules/law, now you owe me salvation". No he doesn't! That is basically what the rich young ruler did. There will always be that one thing we lack. Grace and love prevails- concurs sin. Death hell and the grave is defeated at the cross for those who will have faith.
What is the greatest commandment "love God and second love your neighbor as you love yourself". Living for God becomes a new lifestyle not another system of laws/rules.

I John 1:ff speaks to the way sins are viewed by God. Continual cleansing for those who walk in the light.

Now apply that to your son and you. Do you change your rules because your son does not do things to please you, or is your hope that he pleases you? God does not break a relationship man does. Saved people are not saved people because God is in charge but because of his grace. If God were in Charge all would be saved. God part is Grace and man has a part.

Nowhere do cocs (as you call them) claim to follow rules to gain Heaven.

You say God will never turn his back on Mankind I hope you mean while the man is alive because the judgement picture appears to be a throwing away of the soul into punishment and eternal distruction.

By the way arent you glad that the cocs have the Holy Spirit straighting out their prayers even if they do mess them up? How bout you do you ever say something that is incorrect in prayer?

Most ive heard pray in public are saying to please continue to forgive us when fail and many are saying thanks for the continual forgiveness you give. I like the last myself in my understanding of I John 1:7

By the way what did the model prayer that Christ prayed look like?

Glorified the father, ask for the kingdom, give us substance, Forgive us as we forgive, keep us from temptation.

He restates forgiveness after the prayer.

[Walkinginlove]

I agree with Bobby, many in the hardline sects of the churches of Christ are spot on as Bobby describes their view. If you ever sat through one of their encounters where they spend their entire time convincing someone who believes they are saved as not being so you will note the number of wrath based scriptures they pull. I dueled them before I started my serious studies for 45 minutes, it was very entertaining as they attempted to find a weakness or element of fear or doubt they could capitalize on.

And after reading and studying and asking God for wisdom it has come to me that sitting in a building with a sign on the outside that has churches of Christ on it, does nothing to get me into the kingdom in as much as sitting in a garage can make me a car.

Suffering the ONE baptism does.

[JustChristian]

Walkinginlove wrote:

I agree with Bobby, many in the hardline sects of the churches of Christ are spot on as Bobby describes their view. If you ever sat through one of their encounters where they spend their entire time convincing someone who believes they are saved as not being so you will note the number of wrath based scriptures they pull. I dueled them before I started my serious studies for 45 minutes, it was very entertaining as they attempted to find a weakness or element of fear or doubt they could capitalize on.
And after reading and studying and asking God for wisdom it has come to me that sitting in a building with a sign on the outside that has churches of Christ on it, does nothing to get me into the kingdom in as much as sitting in a garage can make me a car.
Suffering the ONE baptism does.

sitting is the key word. I believe Paul called it a walk.

By the way I think Christ spoke of Hell quite often, and it was not pleasant speech.

[Bobby]

JustChristian wrote:

<quoted text>I John 1:ff speaks to the way sins are viewed by God. Continual cleansing for those who walk in the light.
Now apply that to your son and you. Do you change your rules because your son does not do things to please you, or is your hope that he pleases you? God does not break a relationship man does. Saved people are not saved people because God is in charge but because of his grace. If God were in Charge all would be saved. God part is Grace and man has a part.
Nowhere do cocs (as you call them) claim to follow rules to gain Heaven.
You say God will never turn his back on Mankind I hope you mean while the man is alive because the judgement picture appears to be a throwing away of the soul into punishment and eternal distruction.
By the way arent you glad that the cocs have the Holy Spirit straighting out their prayers even if they do mess them up? How bout you do you ever say something that is incorrect in prayer?
Most ive heard pray in public are saying to please continue to forgive us when fail and many are saying thanks for the continual forgiveness you give. I like the last myself in my understanding of I John 1:7
By the way what did the model prayer that Christ prayed look like?
Glorified the father, ask for the kingdom, give us substance, Forgive us as we forgive, keep us from temptation.
He restates forgiveness after the prayer.

Myth buster: When do any in your church come forward for prayer admitting their specific sin. It might happen in your church but I never saw it. The invitation song was for non members to come forward for water baptism or a coc person from another coc wanting to place membership. Anyone coming forward for prayer was non existent.

A coc member might ask for prayers for other people's sins or sick people, but for a coc member to admit his sin just did not happen. That would be like saying "I am lost"!

[Bobby]

That is right, at the end of every public prayer was these words "forgive us of our sins". The good part is they realize they still sin.

[William]

"...Will it be on display so those Jews can walk by and say "I told you the Law was still in force". I think there is a good reason it was never found and never will be..."

You can be 110% certain that if it were around today that it would be worshipped and revered by people who call themselves Jews. And most Christian religions as well.

"Proof of God" they would call it.

[JustChristian]

Bobby wrote:

<quoted text>
Myth buster: When do any in your church come forward for prayer admitting their specific sin. It might happen in your church but I never saw it. The invitation song was for non members to come forward for water baptism or a coc person from another coc wanting to place membership. Anyone coming forward for prayer was non existent.
A coc member might ask for prayers for other people's sins or sick people, but for a coc member to admit his sin just did not happen. That would be like saying "I am lost"!

As you know your view of the way different groups function is skewed at the least. The coming in front of the congregation for prayers for any reason, temptation or sin problems, financial are all things that happen. We are now really considering a different approach to lessen the problem of walking forward for issues that can be handled in a private setting. Very rarely if ever does one respond to the gospel from a sermon being preached, since we encourage personal bible study and it seems that after study depending on the conviction of the person the baptism occurs immediately. Wow sounds like the early church. Your goal here seems to be to lead all people away from all churches of Christ because of your past experience. Maybe you should encourage something different.:)

[New Guy]

JustChristian, have to agree with your assessment. Bobby doesn't seem to address the scriptural issues of topic here, just seems to want to steer people away from the coc. I asked about the two gospel system, he simply said I don't agree and don't desire to go any further on it. I would think that anytime there is false gospels being discussed we would all be concerned and into it. There are meatier issues than discussing the churches of Christ.

[Bobby]

JustChristian wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow what a perverted and disgusting view you have of the Body of Christ.

Yea, you are right, I could have said: All people who are not members of the bible churches are evil sinners on their way to hell. Is ok for you to teach that (while denying that you don't) but not for me to?

[Bobby]

New Guy wrote:

JustChristian, have to agree with your assessment. Bobby doesn't seem to address the scriptural issues of topic here, just seems to want to steer people away from the coc. I asked about the two gospel system, he simply said I don't agree and don't desire to go any further on it. I would think that anytime there is false gospels being discussed we would all be concerned and into it. There are meatier issues than discussing the churches of Christ.

Not true, I think if there are true christians in any church that it will be by the power of God and not their pet doctrines. Randy Frazee (my wife was once his banker)is a former bible church pastor, he is now preaching in Oak Hills church formerly a church of christ. They have 5 different campuses linked together with Randy preaching live via satellite to all of them. I have heard that the membership is about 10,000.

Do I agree with everything they teach, no. However no two of us here agree 100% with each other. What I am annoyed by is people judging one another on a salvation level. Every one of us has changed our view on something.

http://oakhillschurch.com/beliefs/

[Barnsweb]

According to John, who testifies totally in line with the truth as taught by Master Y'shua, the blood covers those who walk in the light. Anyone who is a disciple of the Lord knows what the 'light of His word' is.
AENT
'We announce to you that which was from the beginning which we have heard and have seen with our eyes, looked upon, and handled with our hands, that which is the Word of Life. And the life was manifested, and we have seen and do testify and announce to you the life which is eternal; which was with the Father and was revealed to us. And what we have seen and heard, we make known to you also that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Y'shua the Mashiyach. And these things we write to you that our joy in you may be complete. And this is the announcement which we have heard from him and declare to you, that Elohim is light and no darkness at all is in him. And if we say that we have fellowship with him and we walk in the darkness, we are liars and walk not in the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each other and the blood of Y'shua his Son cleanses us from all our sins. And if we say that we haven o sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all our iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us."

John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words, and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

Truly it was said that in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine, but will prefer lies.

[Bobby]

This is one of the best descriptions of Legalism I have seen. Probably all of us practice legalism to some degree.

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

Legalism, in Christian theology, is a pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on law or codes of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigor, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit.

A strict adherence to rules or the law as a way to find favor with God
A human attempt gain salvation or prove our spirituality through following a list of religious "do's" and "don'ts"

le·gal·ism (l g-lzm)

n.

Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality.
A legal word, expression, or rule.

legalism
n : strict conformity to the letter of the law rather than its spirit

It can easily cause feelings of self-righteousness
It can cause a person to consider others as being less Christian or less spiritual if they don't follow a particular rule or list of rules
It can and will quench joy in the life of the believer
It often poisons people to the true message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
It can blind us to the reality of God's grace in the life of a believer.
It can make an individual divisive and condemning.

Legalism is contrary to the Grace dynamic of God in Jesus Christ
2. Legalism is contrary to faith, our receptivity of God's activity; a satanic substitute that supplants faith.
3. Legalism is contrary to the Lordship of Christ, wherein He directs and guides our lives.
4. Legalism is contrary to Christian obedience, which is "listening under" the direction of the living Lord Jesus Christ.
5. Legalism is contrary to the Spirit-led Christian life, wherein the Spirit of Christ enables and empowers.

Christian Legalism cannot change a heart, it tries to control people with laws and expectations that are not even kept by the religionists who interpret and apply the rules. We have to keep in mind that we have grace and the Holy Spirit's convictions. Our own faith without GRACE is sin (i.e. legalism). Legalism is spiritually fatal. Whenever legalism of faith doctrines replaces grace, legalism causes a Christian to sin. Many Christians have spent their time correcting their faith symptoms rather than allowing the Holy Spirit lead their faith. According to the Apostle Paul,“If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace”(Rom. 11:6). God says all our righteousnesses are fatally flawed.

It is the whole difference between legalism and true Christianity under Grace. Christ's blood counts as payment for all our sins, and His fulfillment of the law counts as all the merit we need. We are not under law, but under grace. God's desire that I should reflect His own holiness and goodness (not my own flesh's efforts). Holiness is the balance between my nature and the law of God as expressed in Jesus Christ within me. True "sanctification" is only through the Holy Spirit who produce the evidence of my own true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God that my flesh CANNOT DO. Legalism is man's own concept of obedience makes him feel very safe that if its part of his life, he will impose on others. If they are not following his formula of legalistic beliefs, they are not being obedient according to his understanding of the Scriptures.

[Bobby]

New Guy wrote:

JustChristian, have to agree with your assessment. Bobby doesn't seem to address the scriptural issues of topic here, just seems to want to steer people away from the coc. I asked about the two gospel system, he simply said I don't agree and don't desire to go any further on it. I would think that anytime there is false gospels being discussed we would all be concerned and into it. There are meatier issues than discussing the churches of Christ.

Wrong, I do not want to steer people away from the coc. I would rather see them come to a strong position on Grace rather than to wallow in legalism. Sometimes the discussions here are rabbit trails that lead no where. If anything I say or do causes you as a coc preacher or teacher to teach your congregation how to better walk in the grace of God, I feel I have made an impact. Legalism is like sour apples. I remember hearing a coc preacher say that the coc must have been raised on dill pickle juice because the were constantly looking for ways to condemn others.