Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#21 Apr 16, 2013
Since we are Clothed in Christ through the ONE baptism, and God was clearly focused on the wedding clothes of the man who did not have them, clearly God is focused on Christ and not us, otherwise we are all dead men.

And to balance things logizomai the word used for imputed means about 20 different meanings and words:

1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
1a) to take into account, to make an account of
1a1) metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute
1a2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
1b) to number among, reckon with
1c) to reckon or account
2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
3a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
3b) to suppose, deem, judge
3c) to determine, purpose, decide

So may I ask what importance is this? Does it by chance have to do with works vs. faith debate that FYI should not even exist?
Dave P

Duluth, GA

#22 Apr 16, 2013
WIL it leads to a belief of being sinless in Gods eyes, and once saved always saved. God will never see you sin.

Back to work guys. Later.
William

Anniston, AL

#23 Apr 16, 2013
2 Corinthians 5:18-21

Who did God make to BE sin for us, NOT umputing ourtrespasses to us?

Us who believe and trust the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is.
William

Anniston, AL

#24 Apr 16, 2013
Imputing.

That is.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#25 Apr 16, 2013
There is a difference in being clothed with Christ or having the righteous life of Jesus credited to our account. When we are clothed with Christ, put on Christ the Father declares us justified or righteous due to our faith in His Son and what Jesus done for us. It is not of any kind of works or self righteousness. It is because of faith. Yet God still sees us as we are, still knows what we are doing and what is in our hearts. And when we stumble, we must repent and ask for forgiveness.

If the righteousness of Christ is credited to us however, that changes. God no longer sees us as we are, He only sees the Son when He sees us. It is like He has on blinders, or rose colored glasses. He doesn't see or acknowledge our sins, and they are continuously cleansed anyhow, so we are essentially sinless or perfect. This does become OSAS, because if God doesn't see us, how can we sin and fall short?
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#26 Apr 17, 2013
William wrote:
2 Corinthians 5:18-21
Who did God make to BE sin for us, NOT umputing ourtrespasses to us?
Us who believe and trust the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is.
Matthew 18:31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him,‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

In the above if you have an offense against another and they seek forgiveness and you refuse to release them from their debt what will God do to you?

Pay all of what debt means we are accountable for our sins again, it is the great debt we can not pay.

Your only option under this scenario is to declare that anyone not willing to forgive was never saved because the word is clear, if you walk in un-forgiveness you are accountable to pay your debt to God.

In the parable of the prodigal son who had a relationship with his father before he left home, was called lost and dead by the father when he returned saying was lost now found, was dead and is now alive.

Clearly the parable is about God and those who return to him after falling away. They clearly had a relationship with the father, they clearly went to do their own will, and clearly were welcomed back by God, but while gone they were dead to him and also lost to him.

Again the word of God clearly shows a change of status from acceptable, to unacceptable, and back again.

Thus at a minimum there are conditions where we lose our covering. There are more passages, but the above is enough to refute permanent status of saved. While we walk with God following his will we are acceptable, if we go our own way we are not.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#27 Apr 17, 2013
Dave P wrote:
There is a difference in being clothed with Christ or having the righteous life of Jesus credited to our account. When we are clothed with Christ, put on Christ the Father declares us justified or righteous due to our faith in His Son and what Jesus done for us. It is not of any kind of works or self righteousness. It is because of faith. Yet God still sees us as we are, still knows what we are doing and what is in our hearts. And when we stumble, we must repent and ask for forgiveness.
If the righteousness of Christ is credited to us however, that changes. God no longer sees us as we are, He only sees the Son when He sees us. It is like He has on blinders, or rose colored glasses. He doesn't see or acknowledge our sins, and they are continuously cleansed anyhow, so we are essentially sinless or perfect. This does become OSAS, because if God doesn't see us, how can we sin and fall short?
Read heb 11 the great hall of faith. There we find that none of their sins are mentioned. It is not because he can't remember them but because he chooses to remember them no more.

1 John 3:19-20, "We shall know by this that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before Him, 20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things."

"Our sins, when laid upon Christ, were yet personally ours, not his; so his righteousness, when put upon us, is yet personally his, not ours." - John Bunyan
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#28 Apr 17, 2013
Another thing, when the word of God asserts that God sees no sin in His people, the teaching is not that there is no sin in believers.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#29 Apr 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Read heb 11 the great hall of faith. There we find that none of their sins are mentioned. It is not because he can't remember them but because he chooses to remember them no more.
1 John 3:19-20, "We shall know by this that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before Him, 20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things."
"Our sins, when laid upon Christ, were yet personally ours, not his; so his righteousness, when put upon us, is yet personally his, not ours." - John Bunyan
Actually to understand the way Christ functions you need to Read Hebrews 9 where it gives the history of the tabernacle, what was in it and how that was done away with and Replaced with Christ. Note Not just the priest were replaced but the entire sacrifice system used in the Old covenant. Even the Mercy seat (which blocked Gods eyes figuratively from the Ten Commandments) and was replaced by the blood of Christ which does the same thing. Christ blood figuratively blocks Gods eyes from our sin. I wonder why the Ark of the Covenant was never found?
William

Birmingham, AL

#30 Apr 17, 2013
"I wonder why the Ark of the Covenant was never found?"

Revelation 11:19 (KJV)

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Indiana Jones won't like to hear this!
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#31 Apr 17, 2013
I thought it was in a warehouse at area 51? Indy found it and killed a bunch of Nazis, remember?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#32 Apr 17, 2013
The issues of imputed righteousness and sinless perfection are actually 2 different things, but many holiness in this area put them together. Much controversy in eastern Ky and southern Ohio the last 10 year's over this. It spread into the churches of Christ here as well. Many run around claiming to be perfect, being above sin. It is mainly a Wesleyan idea, although I don't think Wesley actually taught any such thing himself. It is the whole 2nd work of grace idea.

The imputed righteousness doctrine is just another Calvinist idea basically. Another idea of OSAS, and not understand that impute just means to reckon. Again, the Bible never says that the righteous life of Jesus is accounted to us. The Bible says our faith is accounted to us for righteousness, and that is the righteousness from God. No quotes from any author will supercede Gods own word.
William

Birmingham, AL

#33 Apr 17, 2013
That's what "they" want you to believe.
William

Birmingham, AL

#34 Apr 17, 2013
The warehouse/Area 51 thing, I meant.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#35 Apr 17, 2013
William wrote:
"I wonder why the Ark of the Covenant was never found?"
Revelation 11:19 (KJV)
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Indiana Jones won't like to hear this!
Im talking the literal Ark
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#36 Apr 17, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Actually to understand the way Christ functions you need to Read Hebrews 9 where it gives the history of the tabernacle, what was in it and how that was done away with and Replaced with Christ. Note Not just the priest were replaced but the entire sacrifice system used in the Old covenant. Even the Mercy seat (which blocked Gods eyes figuratively from the Ten Commandments) and was replaced by the blood of Christ which does the same thing. Christ blood figuratively blocks Gods eyes from our sin. I wonder why the Ark of the Covenant was never found?
Good points...
William

Birmingham, AL

#37 Apr 17, 2013
"I'm talking the literal Ark."

"... and there was SEEN in his temple the ark of his testament."

John saw the literal ark, unless he was just "spiritualizing" things, as many of you folks say about Revelation.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#38 Apr 17, 2013
William wrote:
"I'm talking the literal Ark."
"... and there was SEEN in his temple the ark of his testament."
John saw the literal ark, unless he was just "spiritualizing" things, as many of you folks say about Revelation.
So in a spiritual world there is going to be a literal ark?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#39 Apr 17, 2013
Dave P wrote:
The issues of imputed righteousness and sinless perfection are actually 2 different things, but many holiness in this area put them together. Much controversy in eastern Ky and southern Ohio the last 10 year's over this. It spread into the churches of Christ here as well. Many run around claiming to be perfect, being above sin. It is mainly a Wesleyan idea, although I don't think Wesley actually taught any such thing himself. It is the whole 2nd work of grace idea.
The imputed righteousness doctrine is just another Calvinist idea basically. Another idea of OSAS, and not understand that impute just means to reckon. Again, the Bible never says that the righteous life of Jesus is accounted to us. The Bible says our faith is accounted to us for righteousness, and that is the righteousness from God. No quotes from any author will supercede Gods own word.
I agree with you on the “2nd work of grace”. It implies that you can obtain perfection through sanctification while still on earth, at which point you no longer sin. Instead, you only make mistakes. In addition, you can lose your salvation before you are perfect but, you can also be saved again.

Answer to the problem is: Justification means we are redeemed, not that we have not sinned because in fact we still sin.

Sanctification is a life long process where the potter molds us into the vessel he chooses where the redeemed are refined like pure gold.

Lastly is Glorification where we are removed from this world of sin and come in direct contact with God- all things will be forever changed-sin shall be no more.
William

Birmingham, AL

#40 Apr 17, 2013
"So in a spiritual world there is going to be a literal ark?"

I don't know. There was a literal Ark once, and it went somewhere. Revelation indicates that it is in heaven and not on the earth, and it has never been found on earth despite what the History Channel seems to want to tout.

The thing ended up someplace, that much is certain.

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