I Marvel at Whitman

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41 Oct 8, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Since I have no idea texas style teaching so how am I to determine what to rethink??? Should I depend on YOU to tell me that or the pope?:)
How is the two JC's know so damn much about the Catholic Church and nothing about Daniel Sommer and David Lipscomb??? But if I were the JC's I would pretend Sommer, Lipscomb and of course Alexander Campbell never existed.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#42 Oct 8, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Good points about Daniel Sommer. He and W. Carl Ketcherside were two hard-liners who many today have their roots. Both men had a change of heart in their last days and regretted the harm they caused to the Church.
They didn't any harm to the Church. At least no more than any other Prot.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#43 Oct 9, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
How is the two JC's know so damn much about the Catholic Church and nothing about Daniel Sommer and David Lipscomb??? But if I were the JC's I would pretend Sommer, Lipscomb and of course Alexander Campbell never existed.
good question what do you think. Or what does the Pope think.:)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#44 Oct 9, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Couple clicks and you can find out then hide your head in shame.
Hide my head in shame for anothers beliefs.....???? Only if it were the Pope that demand you think as he does would that be the case. So maybe you should be hiding in shame.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#45 Oct 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Hide my head in shame for anothers beliefs.....???? Only if it were the Pope that demand you think as he does would that be the case. So maybe you should be hiding in shame.
Daniel Sommer is in your head and the sole reason you believe as you do.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#46 Oct 10, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Daniel Sommer is in your head and the sole reason you believe as you do.
Still dont know him sorry.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#47 Oct 10, 2013
And now, in closing up this address and declaration, we state that we are impelled from a sense of duty to say, that all such as are guilty of teaching, or allowing and practicing the many innovations to which we have referred, that after being admonished and having had sufficient time for reflection, if they do not turn away from such abominations, that we can not and will not regard them as brethren.

"one who can understand Daniel Sommer has taken a major step toward a better understanding of the conservative religious psychology generally and of the Churches of Christ in particular"

Daniel Sommer was convinced that the "tide of liberalism" was swiftly rising, and he was determined, single-handedly if need be, to stem that tide. Thus, he became the voice of ultra-conservatism within the Movement, and his voice was heard loudly and persistently. He went after the digressives, liberals and innovators with a passion, and insisted that they could not be tolerated in the church, and that "the faithful" must distance themselves from all such godless men and women. "Sommer was one of the first to advocate separation of those who opposed instrumental music and church-supported missionary societies from churches that would not abandon such practices" (The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement, p. 693). Yet, in his extremism one sees the glaring inconsistency that far too often characterizes such militant radicals. "While he himself was bitterly opposed to societies, Bible colleges, the pastor system, and instrumental music, he was grossly impatient with those who opposed other innovations of which he approved, such as Sunday schools and multiple cups for the Communion"

Thus, Sommer's followers came to be referred to as "anti brethren," since they were opposed to so many things. Sommer also frequently insisted that his people were the "only Church of Christ in town." With extremism always comes exclusivism.

Beloved brethren, there are lessons to be learned from the life of Daniel Sommer. Few question his zeal or love for the Lord. He spent his life devoted to promoting his vision of God's will for the church. Unfortunately, for the bulk of his life he had failed to grasp God's purpose! Ignorant of His grace, and the freedom one has in Christ Jesus, he proclaimed a religion of rigidity, and perhaps did more than any other individual during the early years of our faith-heritage to bring about deep divisions. Like the apostle Peter, who wept bitterly after denying Jesus Christ, Sommer spent the latter days of his life lamenting his years of misguided maliciousness. Sadly, he was unable to undo the harm he had inflicted upon the church, and the fruit of his labor is still evident in the rigid, legalistic, patternistic wing of the Churches of Christ. Sommer sowed his seed well, and the tares that have grown up all around us today are the tragic result of his decades of devotion to division.

JC, meet Daniel Sommer.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#48 Oct 10, 2013
Dave P wrote:
And now, in closing up this address and declaration, we state that we are impelled from a sense of duty to say, that all such as are guilty of teaching, or allowing and practicing the many innovations to which we have referred, that after being admonished and having had sufficient time for reflection, if they do not turn away from such abominations, that we can not and will not regard them as brethren.
"one who can understand Daniel Sommer has taken a major step toward a better understanding of the conservative religious psychology generally and of the Churches of Christ in particular"
Daniel Sommer was convinced that the "tide of liberalism" was swiftly rising, and he was determined, single-handedly if need be, to stem that tide. Thus, he became the voice of ultra-conservatism within the Movement, and his voice was heard loudly and persistently. He went after the digressives, liberals and innovators with a passion, and insisted that they could not be tolerated in the church, and that "the faithful" must distance themselves from all such godless men and women. "Sommer was one of the first to advocate separation of those who opposed instrumental music and church-supported missionary societies from churches that would not abandon such practices" (The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement, p. 693). Yet, in his extremism one sees the glaring inconsistency that far too often characterizes such militant radicals. "While he himself was bitterly opposed to societies, Bible colleges, the pastor system, and instrumental music, he was grossly impatient with those who opposed other innovations of which he approved, such as Sunday schools and multiple cups for the Communion"
Thus, Sommer's followers came to be referred to as "anti brethren," since they were opposed to so many things. Sommer also frequently insisted that his people were the "only Church of Christ in town." With extremism always comes exclusivism.
Beloved brethren, there are lessons to be learned from the life of Daniel Sommer. Few question his zeal or love for the Lord. He spent his life devoted to promoting his vision of God's will for the church. Unfortunately, for the bulk of his life he had failed to grasp God's purpose! Ignorant of His grace, and the freedom one has in Christ Jesus, he proclaimed a religion of rigidity, and perhaps did more than any other individual during the early years of our faith-heritage to bring about deep divisions. Like the apostle Peter, who wept bitterly after denying Jesus Christ, Sommer spent the latter days of his life lamenting his years of misguided maliciousness. Sadly, he was unable to undo the harm he had inflicted upon the church, and the fruit of his labor is still evident in the rigid, legalistic, patternistic wing of the Churches of Christ. Sommer sowed his seed well, and the tares that have grown up all around us today are the tragic result of his decades of devotion to division.
JC, meet Daniel Sommer.
Why do you desire me to meet someone you dont follow? Im confused at your tactics. By the way I didnt read it.
Dave P

Grayson, KY

#49 Oct 10, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you desire me to meet someone you dont follow? Im confused at your tactics. By the way I didnt read it.
I wanted you to meet someone you do follow, whether you know it or admit it. Not surprised you didn't read it- Don't really want to know the truth behind your group, your congregation's history do you?
Dave P

Grayson, KY

#50 Oct 10, 2013
I would say you can dive into Baptist, Methodist, or Catholic history quite easily though. You used catholic history for the instrumental questions.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#51 Oct 15, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I wanted you to meet someone you do follow, whether you know it or admit it. Not surprised you didn't read it- Don't really want to know the truth behind your group, your congregation's history do you?
The only one I desire to meet is Christ and his truth even though for some reason you desire me to meet a man. You meet men I will stick with Christ.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#52 Oct 15, 2013
Dave P wrote:
I would say you can dive into Baptist, Methodist, or Catholic history quite easily though. You used catholic history for the instrumental questions.
You say a lot.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#53 Oct 15, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>You say a lot.
Yep. The reason you don't use instruments is that after the Civil War you didn't have any left and the your northern brethren wouldn't give you any money, so not to embarrass yourselves you put that in your Theology.

That's okay, right now we are down a piano/organ player and are singing only.

Is there anybody in the band you play in that needs a Sunday morning job?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#54 Oct 15, 2013
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep. The reason you don't use instruments is that after the Civil War you didn't have any left and the your northern brethren wouldn't give you any money, so not to embarrass yourselves you put that in your Theology.
That's okay, right now we are down a piano/organ player and are singing only.
Is there anybody in the band you play in that needs a Sunday morning job?
Everyone knows that for many centuries the Church did not use musical instruments during the Mass and that is still the way it is today in many places. There is a huge treasure of hymns and chants written expressly for the unaccompanied human voice extant from those early centuries still in use today...everywhere around the world except in the denomination that claims to be the original Church of Christ. The CofC does not use musical instruments but it does use all sorts of hymns etc. written expressly to be accompanied by musical instruments! The hymns used by the CofC are not even from the early centuries...they were written by all sorts of prots from Baptists to Anglicans, from Methodists to Lutherans. Even non-musicians like me can look at a sheet of music and immediately tell if it is for voice only or has notation for instrumental accompaniment. Cracks me up!
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#55 Oct 15, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>The only one I desire to meet is Christ and his truth even though for some reason you desire me to meet a man. You meet men I will stick with Christ.
The churches of Christ never stuck with just Jesus. And you don't stick with just Jesus for your arguments from history. I would rather you be honest about your faith heritage, and realize where much of what you believe comes from. Hint- it isn't from Jesus. Is the non-instrumental faction of the churches of Christ ashamed of its' heritage?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#56 Oct 15, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>You say a lot.
And you say little, and seemingly don't take stands on anything. But you do strain gnats well, and disregard the major points well also.
Dave P

Winder, GA

#57 Oct 15, 2013
How bout this JC- how can you use catholic history to try to make your points about instrumental music in the early church, then deny the same catholic church you quote from? If they arent the "real church", why use their history?

If you can use catholic history, why refuse to use or acknowledge church of Christ history?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#58 Oct 16, 2013
Dave P wrote:
How bout this JC- how can you use catholic history to try to make your points about instrumental music in the early church, then deny the same catholic church you quote from? If they arent the "real church", why use their history?
If you can use catholic history, why refuse to use or acknowledge church of Christ history?
Why you keep asking questions from someone that has so little knowledge as you claim. I dont read the history of what you claim formed my group just the bible and the way I worship agrees with that. The history I used for the instrument argument was dated close to the early church which I find creditable but you do not yet you desire I read history at a later date???? wow. I dont deny the catholic church has its start where the historical accounts of that time claim. I dont deny there are historical accounts of groups that grabbed their bible and formed some thoughts I have yet I have not formed my thoughts from reading those accounts. You still dont get it. They dont have to be the real church to give you a glimpse of what was happening at the time frame. If you say you dont believe any historical account I dont believe you even think that way. Im sorry I dont fit in your boxes.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#59 Oct 16, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
And you say little, and seemingly don't take stands on anything. But you do strain gnats well, and disregard the major points well also.
lol your blowing more air.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#60 Oct 16, 2013
Dave P wrote:
How bout this JC- how can you use catholic history to try to make your points about instrumental music in the early church, then deny the same catholic church you quote from? If they arent the "real church", why use their history?
If you can use catholic history, why refuse to use or acknowledge church of Christ history?
You desire to know about the group that formed where I worship I know that history. Other then that I have no idea about other groups.

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