Understanding the purpose of Baptism?

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Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#141
May 16, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Please pray for the tornado victims here in Texas!
Did this morning when I read about it.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#142
May 16, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Mike P-1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the presbyters* among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Presbyters: the officially appointed leaders and teachers of the Christian community (cf. 1 Tm 5:17–18; Ti 1:5–8; Jas 5:14). PRIESTS
Peter was married? What happened to her. Only 2 things. She was dead because she is not mentioned, his mother-in-law was. Or Peter left her, because Jesus told the disciples to leave everything behind and follow him.
Let's use your terminology for a second. Peter was a presbyter, also called a bishop or an elder. You say Peter's wife either died or he left her. However, according to Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus, a bishop has to be "the husband of one wife". If Peter wasn't married when he wrote his first letter, he was scripturally unqualified to be a presbyter or elder. That, or catholic doctrine is wrong :)
I know which one I believe.
Dave, you sure are tough. Jesus and Paul would not qualify as an Bishop or Elder in your Church.

The Catholic Church welcomes Jesus not just as a bishop but as The bishop, as I Peter 2:25 says: For you had gone astray like sheep, but you have now returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls (NAB).

The word translated guardian here in the NAB is actually not just a bishop; rather, The bishop (Greek, ton episkopon) of your souls. Jesus is the bishop of the Catholic Church. And he was and is celibate.”

This is the position of the Catholic Church today. If a man has been married more than once, even if licitly, he cannot be admitted to the episcopacy.

St. Paul’s first letter to Timothy, he would go on to declare that a widow who was “enrolled,” or consecrated, as a celibate and married again to have sinned gravely. There is nothing wrong with a widow remarrying. That is licit and clearly so elsewhere in Scripture, specifically in St. Paul’s own writings (see Romans 7:2-3; I Cor. 7:27-28, 39-40). But it is wrong for the one who has been consecrated for service in the Church. It is interesting that St. Paul uses the same language of limiting the widow to having been the wife “of one husband.” Obviously this was not meant to say “one husband at a time”:

Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband.... But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge (I Tim. 5:9-12).

It is more than fitting that those consecrated as bishops, elders, and deacons would make a similar commitment.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#143
May 16, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I really dont know nor care if I am closer to Bobby or Mike beliefs. I believe God has a special set apart people he calls his own and he did call it the church. The called out folk of God. They are described as, A royal Priesthood, Saints, a kingdom, a church, a body, And they were purchased by Christ himself.
Now you decide, if it is important for you, whom is closer in thoughts.
By the way I have no idea what the fancy word baptismal regeneration means, I do know what command the Christ made for me to be that special set apart people, and what it means to be that child of God.
My views are much closer to yours than Mike's.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#144
May 16, 2013
 
Luke 2:33 NAB

"The child’s father and mother were amazed at what was said about him."

Mike, who is the father of Jesus Christ? God, or Joseph?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#145
May 16, 2013
 
Where in scripture does it say something like this? You shall know your brother in Christ by whether or not he gets the water baptismal formula correct and then goes on to list the correct formula for us.

Here is what I hear from the scripture:

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

I think we are falling short of exercising these principles.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#146
May 16, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
My views are much closer to yours than Mike's.
Again this may seem minor to you Prots, but what I believe is what the Church Jesus started teaches. No views involved.

Only Protesters of that Church have views, including the COC. Somebody mentioned something like unity through diversity in the COC.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#147
May 16, 2013
 
William wrote:
Luke 2:33 NAB
"The child’s father and mother were amazed at what was said about him."
Mike, who is the father of Jesus Christ? God, or Joseph?
That is easy, God was his Birth Father and Joseph was his earthly adopted father.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#148
May 16, 2013
 
In that same sense we are all adopted into the family of God through our earthly born elder brother-our savior. He identifies with us through his flesh.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#149
May 16, 2013
 
"That is easy, God was his Birth Father and Joseph was his earthly adopted father."

If someone were to pick up the NAB and come across that verse, they would think that Joseph is THE father of Jesus Christ. Why would the RCC's bible lessen the divinity of Christ by making it sound like Joseph takes precedence over Christ's real Father?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#150
May 16, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Where in scripture does it say something like this? You shall know your brother in Christ by whether or not he gets the water baptismal formula correct and then goes on to list the correct formula for us.
Here is what I hear from the scripture:
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
I think we are falling short of exercising these principles.
Disciples of who?:-) Even sinners love those who love them:-)

Put together the rest of the teachings Jesus gave about how we know we are disciples - how He said it is - then the sum is true, not just some of it:-)

How can one repent to do the will of God except they know what He said they should be doing to please Him?! The gospel as taught by Jesus is not trusting that He did it all - rather, it's about being hearers and doers of His teachings/doctrine from God.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#151
May 16, 2013
 
William wrote:
"That is easy, God was his Birth Father and Joseph was his earthly adopted father."
If someone were to pick up the NAB and come across that verse, they would think that Joseph is THE father of Jesus Christ. Why would the RCC's bible lessen the divinity of Christ by making it sound like Joseph takes precedence over Christ's real Father?
William must be one of those KJV onlyist.

If someone was to pick up the KJV and read John 6:53 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you, wouldn't they get the idea that you were suppose to eat his flesh and drink his blood?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#152
May 16, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Dave, you sure are tough. Jesus and Paul would not qualify as an Bishop or Elder in your Church.
The Catholic Church welcomes Jesus not just as a bishop but as The bishop, as I Peter 2:25 says: For you had gone astray like sheep, but you have now returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls (NAB).
The word translated guardian here in the NAB is actually not just a bishop; rather, The bishop (Greek, ton episkopon) of your souls. Jesus is the bishop of the Catholic Church. And he was and is celibate.”
This is the position of the Catholic Church today. If a man has been married more than once, even if licitly, he cannot be admitted to the episcopacy.
St. Paul’s first letter to Timothy, he would go on to declare that a widow who was “enrolled,” or consecrated, as a celibate and married again to have sinned gravely. There is nothing wrong with a widow remarrying. That is licit and clearly so elsewhere in Scripture, specifically in St. Paul’s own writings (see Romans 7:2-3; I Cor. 7:27-28, 39-40). But it is wrong for the one who has been consecrated for service in the Church. It is interesting that St. Paul uses the same language of limiting the widow to having been the wife “of one husband.” Obviously this was not meant to say “one husband at a time”:
Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband.... But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge (I Tim. 5:9-12).
It is more than fitting that those consecrated as bishops, elders, and deacons would make a similar commitment.
Jesus has a bride.

Biblical Illiteracy 101 in session.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#153
May 16, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Disciples of who?:-) Even sinners love those who love them:-)
Put together the rest of the teachings Jesus gave about how we know we are disciples - how He said it is - then the sum is true, not just some of it:-)
How can one repent to do the will of God except they know what He said they should be doing to please Him?! The gospel as taught by Jesus is not trusting that He did it all - rather, it's about being hearers and doers of His teachings/doctrine from God.
Yea, I guess your right,we should judge one another's heart by what we believe that they should believe and understand about h20 baptism. And it better be in perfect harmony with ours.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#154
May 16, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus has a bride.
Biblical Illiteracy 101 in session.
He sure does. The Catholic Church. But he remained Celibate.

And since Mary was the Mother of Jesus and, since Jesus is God too, the Mother of God, we are her offspring. Why dont you honor your Mother like the Commandments say.

But her offspring are only those who keep the commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

Are you her offspring?

Rev 17 5
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne.3
13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
16
But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth.
17
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.(18) It took its position 14 on the sand of the sea.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#155
May 16, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Yea, I guess your right,we should judge one another's heart by what we believe that they should believe and understand about h20 baptism. And it better be in perfect harmony with ours.
No. It had best be in accord with the whole truth from God:-) It isn't about you or me or even Alexander Campbell or John Wesley.

How anyone can take immersion from Matthew 28 or Acts 2 or 3 is a mystery to me:-)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#156
May 16, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
No. It had best be in accord with the whole truth from God:-) It isn't about you or me or even Alexander Campbell or John Wesley.
How anyone can take immersion from Matthew 28 or Acts 2 or 3 is a mystery to me:-)
I believe that water baptism should be done by immersion.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#157
May 17, 2013
 
'Immersion' is the actual meaning of the word. It's only by clever arguments that some have denied the simple truth of the matter.

Just curious about what you think on it though. Why do you think so many have put aside the direct meaning of immersion to change it to sprinkle or pouring water over some ones head, rather than immersion?

Seems about as right as LDS using water and leaven bread for the Lord's supper...
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#158
May 17, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
'Immersion' is the actual meaning of the word. It's only by clever arguments that some have denied the simple truth of the matter.
Just curious about what you think on it though. Why do you think so many have put aside the direct meaning of immersion to change it to sprinkle or pouring water over some ones head, rather than immersion?
Seems about as right as LDS using water and leaven bread for the Lord's supper...
Every Christian from 32 AD to 1500 including most of the the original Protesters have taught that immersion is ONE way of baptizes.

But God spoke directly to Campbell I guess, like Smith found the tablets.
mopman

United States

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#159
May 17, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
Does the fact that baptism is into forgiveness mean that forgiveness can only be obtained by understanding the purpose of baptism?
I wholeheartedly contend that baptism is the point at which a sinner is forgiven- added to the Body of Christ, etc.
Is Gods’ grace/forgiveness a result of our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does God require we fully grasp this before He acts IN BAPTISM?
If someone is baptized because they have faith in Jesus’ Blood- His resurrection, isn’t this being baptized for proper reasons? Forgiveness is found IN CHRIST, by His Blood, shed on the cross.
Most everyone I know is baptized with faith in Jesus, knowing His Blood forgives sin. Will God condemn a sinner to hell if he fails to understand that IN BAPTISM there is done an operation on the sinner, by God- Col.2:11-12?
Does the work of God hinge upon our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does our misunderstanding the purpose of baptism cause God to withhold forgiveness of the sinner seeking forgiveness even when the sinner has faith in His Son and faith in Jesus’ Blood and resurrected Life?
At the point of faith, the sinner knows very little- almost nothing about the New Birth, doctrines, etc. I believe at the point of genuine faith, God allows misunderstandings, just as he allows misunderstandings to the New Born IN CHRIST. If God can permit the New Born to hold error/misunderstandings while growing in grace, it seems logical the same standards would apply to the sinner seeking God for salvation.
How can God expect the sinner to get it all right prior to salvation, dotting every i crossing every t before He will grant forgiveness, then allow error/misunderstandings after the sinner is saved?
Does the fact that baptism is into forgiveness mean that forgiveness can only be obtained by understanding the purpose of baptism?
I wholeheartedly contend that baptism is the point at which a sinner is forgiven- added to the Body of Christ, etc.
Is Gods’ grace/forgiveness a result of our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does God require we fully grasp this before He acts IN BAPTISM?
If someone is baptized because they have faith in Jesus’ Blood- His resurrection, isn’t this being baptized for proper reasons? Forgiveness is found IN CHRIST, by His Blood, shed on the cross.
Most everyone I know is baptized with faith in Jesus, knowing His Blood forgives sin. Will God condemn a sinner to hell if he fails to understand that IN BAPTISM there is done an operation on the sinner, by God- Col.2:11-12?
Does the work of God hinge upon our understanding the purpose of baptism? Does our misunderstanding the purpose of baptism cause God to withhold forgiveness of the sinner seeking forgiveness even when the sinner has faith in His Son and faith in Jesus’ Blood and resurrected Life?
At the point of faith, the sinner knows very little- almost nothing about the New Birth, doctrines, etc. I believe at the point of genuine faith, God allows misunderstandings, just as he allows misunderstandings to the New Born IN CHRIST. If God can permit the New Born to hold error/misunderstandings while growing in grace, it seems logical the same standards would apply to the sinner seeking God for salvation.
How can God expect the sinner to get it all right prior to salvation, dotting every i crossing every t before He will grant forgiveness, then allow error/misunderstandings after the sinner is saved?
Where you run off to creed

Since: Jul 11

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#160
May 17, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
<quoted text>
Where you run off to creed
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