Understanding the purpose of Baptism?

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Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#181
May 19, 2013
 
Mike said: You will hear more scripture read in on Mass that in month of a protestant Church. It truly is the real Bible Church.

Not true, unless all you do is read the bible and do not expound on what you read.

In our church all of our messages are taken from scripture and we read it before we start. In fact we read and study the same scriptures in sunday school clases before the pastor gives the message.

Today's message fits what we are talking about here.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

The chapter ends this way:

Paul speaking to Timothy:

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#182
May 19, 2013
 
All 300,000 Catholic Parishes in the World read and the Priest gave a Homily on these verses today.

The Universal Church

Acts 2: 1 - 11
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and wondered, saying,''Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Par'thians and Medes and E'lamites and residents of Mesopota'mia, Judea and Cappado'cia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phryg'ia and Pamphyl'ia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyre'ne, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.''
Psalms 104: 1, 24, 29 - 31, 34
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul! O LORD my God, thou art very great! Thou art clothed with honor and majesty, 24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them all; the earth is full of thy creatures. 29 When thou hidest thy face, they are dismayed; when thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust. 30 When thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; and thou renewest the face of the ground. 31 May the glory of the LORD endure for ever, may the LORD rejoice in his works, 34 May my meditation be pleasing to him, for I rejoice in the LORD.
1 Corinthians 12: 3 - 7, 12 - 13
3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says ''Jesus be cursed!'' and no one can say ''Jesus is Lord'' except by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
John 20: 19 - 23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them,''Peace be with you.'' 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again,''Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.'' 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them,''Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.''
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#183
May 19, 2013
 
Then all of these verses are referenced in every Mass.

Introductory Rites:
•Sign of the Cross: ◦"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt 28:19; cf. John 14:13-14; Acts 2:21)

•Liturgical Greeting: A."The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor 13:14)
B."Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:2; Eph 1:2)
C."The Lord be with you." (2 Tim 4:22; cf. Matt 1:23; 28:20)

•People's Response: ◦"And with your spirit" (cf. Gal 6:18; 2 Tim 4:22)

•Rite of Blessing and Sprinkling Holy Water (see Ezek 36:25; cf. Num 8:7a)
•Penitential Act: ◦Intro: "Let us acknowledge our sins, and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries." (cf. Ps 51:5)
A."I confess to almighty God..." (cf. Lev 5:5; Neh 1:5-9; Dan 9:3-19; James 5:16)
B."Have mercy on us, O Lord./ For we have sinned against you./ Show us, O Lord, your mercy./ And grant us your salvation." (Ps 41:4)
C."Lord, Have Mercy" (Matt 15:22; 17:15; 20:30-31; cf. Ps 123:3)

•Gloria: ◦"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will" (Luke 2:14; cf. Rev 4:11; 5:11-14)
◦"We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you..." (Cf. Ps 148:13)
◦"Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son" (cf. Ps 2:7; John 1:14)
◦"Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world..." (cf. John 1:29)
◦"" (cf.)
◦"" (cf.)
◦"" (cf.)

•Prayers concluded by "Amen" (Neh 8:6; Ps 41:13; Rom 16:27; Heb 13:20-21; Rev 7:16)

Liturgy of the Word:
•Introductory/Concluding Dialogues: ◦"A reading from the book/letter of..."
◦"The Word of the Lord" (1 Peter 1:25)- "Thanks be to God" (Rom 6:17; 2 Cor 9:15)
◦"A reading from the holy Gospel according to..." - "Glory to you, O Lord"
◦"The Gospel of the Lord" (Rom 16:25; Mark 1:1)- "Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ"

•Acclamations before the Gospel: ◦"Alleluia " (many Psalms, esp. Ps 146-150; Rev 19:1-6)
◦"Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ, King of endless glory!" (cf. Ps 24:7-10; 1 Thess 2:12; 2 Tim 4:18)
◦"Praise and honor to you, Lord Jesus Christ!" (cf. Dan 4:34, 37; 1 Peter 1:7)
◦"Glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!" (cf. Phil 1:11)

•Profession of Faith: ◦"I believe..." (Mark 9:24; John 11:27; cf. John 14:1; 1 John 5:10)

•General Intercessions: ◦"We pray to the Lord" (Exod 8:29-30; 10:17-18; Jer 42:2-4; Acts 8:22-24)
◦"Lord, hear our prayer" (2 Kings 20:2-5; Isa 38:2-
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#184
May 19, 2013
 
continued.

Liturgy of the Eucharist:
•Preparation of the Gifts: ◦"Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation..." (cf. 1 Chron 29:10; Ps 72:18-19; 119:10; Luke 1:68)
◦"Blessed be God forever. " (cf. Gen 14:20; Ps 66:20; 68:35)

•Eucharistic Acclamations: ◦"Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts..." (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8)
◦"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." (Ps 118:26; Mark 11:9; Matt 21:9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13)
◦"Hosanna in the highest" (Mark 11:10; Matt 21:9; cf. Luke 19:38)

•Words of Institution:(see Mark 14:22-24; Matt 26:26-28; cf. Luke 22:17-20; 1 Cor 11:23-25) ◦"Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body, which will be given up for you" (a combination of Mark 14:22; Matt 26:26; Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24)
◦"Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins." (a combination of Mark 14:24; Matt 26:27b-28; cf. Luke 22:17, 20; 1 Cor 11:25)
◦"Do this in remembrance of me" (only Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24a, 25b)

•Memorial Acclamations: A."We proclaim your Death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection until you come again." (cf. 1 Cor 16:22)
B."When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again." (cf. 1 Cor 11:26)
C."Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross and Resurrection you have set us free." (cf. Matt 8:25; Luke 4:42; Rom 8:21)

•Lord's Prayer: ◦"Our Father in heaven..." (Matt 6:9-13; cf. Luke 11:2-4; Mark 14:36; Gal 4:6)
◦Doxology: "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours..."
(found only in some biblical manuscripts after Matt 6:13; cf. Rev 4:11; 11:15; 1 Chron 29:11)
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#185
May 19, 2013
 
And finally. Now tell me how long will it take Protestant Church to reference this many verses.

•Greeting of Peace: ◦"Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles,'I leave you peace, my peace I give you'" (John 14:27)
◦"The peace of the Lord be with you always." (cf. John 16:33; 20:19, 21, 26)

•Breaking of the Bread: ◦"Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world..." (cf. John 1:29, 36; Rev 5:6-13; 22:1-3)

•Preparation before Communion: ◦"Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb." (John 1:29, 36; Rev 19:9)
◦"Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed." (Matt 8:8; cf. Luke 7:1-10)

Concluding Rite:
•Final Blessing (cf. Gen 28:3; Deut 14:29; Num 6:23-27; Ps 29:11)
•Dismissal: A."Go forth, the Mass is ended."
B."Go and announce the Gospel of the Lord." (cf. Mark 16:15)
C."Go in peace, glorifying the Lord by your life." (cf. Ps 115:1; 1 Cor 10:31; 2 Thess 1:12)
D."Go in peace." (cf. Exod 4:18; Deut 10:11-13; Judg 18:6; 1 Sam 1:17; Mark 5:34; Luke 7:50; 8:48)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#186
May 19, 2013
 
Mike, the way I have seen the reading in the catholic church was nothing more than a long monolog. It seemed to me that it was practiced so much it did not mean anything anymore. Rituals have a way of doing that.

I do thank you for opening my eyes the the truth about your church. I think i knew it all along but i just did not want to rock the boat by condemning it.

The worst funeral I ever witnessed which was officiated by a catholic priest was for a non cc member whose sister was catholic. No hope or no condolences was offered to the family and friends. I will never forget how structured and stoic it was-so practiced and meaningless. More like a duty than anything else-a lifeless drone. That memory will stay with me for a long time. I wanted to take over for him and say something meaningful.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#187
May 19, 2013
 
I could tell that he was reading from a book. I asked about it later and was told that they have a a guide book designed for every type situation the priest might encounter.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#188
May 19, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Mike, the way I have seen the reading in the catholic church was nothing more than a long monolog. It seemed to me that it was practiced so much it did not mean anything anymore. Rituals have a way of doing that.
I do thank you for opening my eyes the the truth about your church. I think i knew it all along but i just did not want to rock the boat by condemning it.
The worst funeral I ever witnessed which was officiated by a catholic priest was for a non cc member whose sister was catholic. No hope or no condolences was offered to the family and friends. I will never forget how structured and stoic it was-so practiced and meaningless. More like a duty than anything else-a lifeless drone. That memory will stay with me for a long time. I wanted to take over for him and say something meaningful.
This seemed like a longer version of someone mindlessly reciting the Lord's Prayer! I have also never cared for the coc preachers I have heard quote 200 scriptures in a sermon, yet never explain or give context to any of it. What's the point?

I have a funeral book for preachers that has catholic ceremonies in it. Agree with you. Very dry.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#189
May 19, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Mike, the way I have seen the reading in the catholic church was nothing more than a long monolog. It seemed to me that it was practiced so much it did not mean anything anymore. Rituals have a way of doing that.
I do thank you for opening my eyes the the truth about your church. I think i knew it all along but i just did not want to rock the boat by condemning it.
The worst funeral I ever witnessed which was officiated by a catholic priest was for a non cc member whose sister was catholic. No hope or no condolences was offered to the family and friends. I will never forget how structured and stoic it was-so practiced and meaningless. More like a duty than anything else-a lifeless drone. That memory will stay with me for a long time. I wanted to take over for him and say something meaningful.
Everything done in a Catholic worship comes from the Bible. This is the same way the Early Church worshiped. If it was good enough for the Apostles is surely good enough for me. You dont understand the Mass leads up to the Eucharist, the time when heaven opens up and Christ comes to earth and the bread and wine turns into the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Where is the worship of the man with no more authority than anybody else sitting in the pew, talking for 40 minutes worship?. The songs I can see. Where is that from the Bible?

Apparently that guy that died was not a Christian. He was doing a favor for the sister because there was nobody else to do it. What is he going to say, I am sorry your loved one is going to hell? He was being polite by not telling the Truth.

BTW. How did you not know he talked to them personally.

I have a friend in the funeral home business. He is a non Catholic and he jokes about how everybody goes to heaven according to the Pastors at every one of the thousands of funerals he as been at. There is nobody in Hell according to him.

At Catholic funerals we pray that the person who died goes to heaven, because only God knows.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#190
May 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
This seemed like a longer version of someone mindlessly reciting the Lord's Prayer! I have also never cared for the coc preachers I have heard quote 200 scriptures in a sermon, yet never explain or give context to any of it. What's the point?
I have a funeral book for preachers that has catholic ceremonies in it. Agree with you. Very dry.
I totally agree, What's the point of preaching for 40 minutes,making a altar call for 10 minutes, singing for 10 minutes and praying for 1 minute. Is that worshiping the lord or just a bible study.

I bet that book is accurate. Did it come from the Catholic Church?

You bet that there is a prescribe way to do all the sacraments. Because that is way the Church which binds and loosens and speaks for Christ teaches their successors to do it. It is Catholic, Universal.

Back to funerals. There was a great Christian man in my Kiwanis Club who was President of the local Baptist College for 30 years. His Church wasnt big enough, so his funeral was moved to a larger one.

It started at 9AM. His casket was closed. A song was sung.One prayer was said. A man stood up and recapped all his accomplishments. He sat down. The Pastor said another prayer. Some nice music was played and they took him to the cemetery. 20 minutes for an 85 year old man who spent 60 years in ministry. There was not one thing holy about that service. It was sad for me.

No scriptures read.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#191
May 19, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
I could tell that he was reading from a book. I asked about it later and was told that they have a a guide book designed for every type situation the priest might encounter.
Of course they do. They don't want a priest going off on his own. The same rites are done all over the world. Universal.

I got the same sacrament of Confirmation as someone in Africa, or somebody 1000 years ago.

You just do what you want or what the pastor wants I mean.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#192
May 19, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course they do. They don't want a priest going off on his own. The same rites are done all over the world. Universal.
I got the same sacrament of Confirmation as someone in Africa, or somebody 1000 years ago.
You just do what you want or what the pastor wants I mean.
Thanks for making my point. It seems to me that Catholic leaders are fundamentally nothing more than human robots.

When I am asked to lead a group prayer or for someone specifically I can choose my own words. Not only that I often ask people if they would like me to pray for them. I never use a chart or outline to do that I pray for the specific need from my heart-God hears my prayers as easily as he would the pope.

My God is a personal God not one that I am required to go through another man, I can go straight to the throne of God with my request and know that he hears me.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#193
May 20, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a friend in the funeral home business. He is a non Catholic and he jokes about how everybody goes to heaven according to the Pastors at every one of the thousands of funerals he as been at. There is nobody in Hell according to him.
At Catholic funerals we pray that the person who died goes to heaven, because only God knows.
I had to preach my father-in-law's funeral. He rejected Christ. I didn't and couldn't preach him into heaven. Not much fun that day. I don't know your friend, but I have run across some very insensitive funeral home employees before. Some of them need to remember where they are and what they are supposed to be doing.

Not a knock on your friend Mike-those guys have a hard job. But some need to think about what they're doing.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#194
May 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for making my point. It seems to me that Catholic leaders are fundamentally nothing more than human robots.
When I am asked to lead a group prayer or for someone specifically I can choose my own words. Not only that I often ask people if they would like me to pray for them. I never use a chart or outline to do that I pray for the specific need from my heart-God hears my prayers as easily as he would the pope.
My God is a personal God not one that I am required to go through another man, I can go straight to the throne of God with my request and know that he hears me.
Bobby; You continue say falsehoods about the Catholic Church. A Baptist Church has no Sacraments. The Church over 2000 years have developed prayers so every Priest in the world will conduct that holy sacrament in the same way. A simple example. The 'book' says say the words 'I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit' when you conduct a baptism. If this is not followed it may not be valid baptism.

I'd rather have a 'robot' that is a successor of the apsotles telling me the Truth that a man reading the Bible on his won and telling me what it means with no Authority.

As for a leading a group in prayer are a priest giving a blessing, he is free to say anything he seems appropriate and he does.

Our God is both an personal god and community God. Jesus prayed on the Cross we should be one in him, like the father and him were one.

I can go directly to God and I do, but like you I ask others to mediate for me, both people living on earth those living in heaven.

I love the Catholic Church. Jesus created it and I can participate in something Jesus created.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#195
May 20, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I had to preach my father-in-law's funeral. He rejected Christ. I didn't and couldn't preach him into heaven. Not much fun that day. I don't know your friend, but I have run across some very insensitive funeral home employees before. Some of them need to remember where they are and what they are supposed to be doing.
Not a knock on your friend Mike-those guys have a hard job. But some need to think about what they're doing.
You have to be kinda 'strange' to be in that business, but he never heard of anybody going to hell at a funeral. A factual observance.

When you talked that day , did you say, don't be like my father in law, he is in hell or did you say, pray for his soul, with God anything is possible?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#196
May 20, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby; You continue say falsehoods about the Catholic Church. A Baptist Church has no Sacraments. The Church over 2000 years have developed prayers so every Priest in the world will conduct that holy sacrament in the same way. A simple example. The 'book' says say the words 'I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit' when you conduct a baptism. If this is not followed it may not be valid baptism.
Uh oh, where's Walkinginlove and Johnny Marrs when you need them? Mike, you probably just opened another can of worms there. You may as well tell everyone why their baptism may not be valid unless done in the "proper formula".
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#197
May 20, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Uh oh, where's Walkinginlove and Johnny Marrs when you need them? Mike, you probably just opened another can of worms there. You may as well tell everyone why their baptism may not be valid unless done in the "proper formula".
A non-catholic is considered a Christian if they are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and HS. They are lacking in that indelible seal from the anointing by oil however.

You will be anointed when you convert to Jesus' Church

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#198
May 20, 2013
 
Yep, if you are not baptized with the "proper formula" [in the name of the Father, Son and HS], according to Mike, you are lacking in that indelible seal from the anointing by oil. WOW! Pope Peter must have forgot about the "proper formula" when he baptized all of them people.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#199
May 20, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
Yep, if you are not baptized with the "proper formula" [in the name of the Father, Son and HS], according to Mike, you are lacking in that indelible seal from the anointing by oil. WOW! Pope Peter must have forgot about the "proper formula" when he baptized all of them people.
How could Peter forget what Jesus taught him. For a Sacrament to be valid 3 things have to present; the correct form, the correct matter, and the correct intention. the correct matter is water, and the correct intention is to do what the Church teaches.

Matthew 29:19. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

The writings of the first Christians back this up.

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#200
May 20, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
How could Peter forget what Jesus taught him. For a Sacrament to be valid 3 things have to present; the correct form, the correct matter, and the correct intention. the correct matter is water, and the correct intention is to do what the Church teaches.
Matthew 29:19. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
The writings of the first Christians back this up.
Hey mike what about doing what Christ commands. Since when does the called out dish out commands. You do know the Church is the called out dont you? Oh yeah what is a sacrament and where in the bible is that term found.

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