Does James teach that both faith and ...
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#22 Jan 25, 2014
Church history is vital to understand what was original and what was not. There is an excellent link about Marcionism at the site, if you scroll down to new additions. It's one of the first listed.

I'd be interested in your comments, should you read it.

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com
Dave P

Hillsboro, KY

#23 Jan 25, 2014
BW says- James is agreeing with Maccabees 2:52 about the matter of Genesis account. "Was not Abraham found faithful in temptation, and it was imputed to him for righteousness?" This verse is precisely what James alludes to in James 2:21. James even phrased it almost identically: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?"
James starts by quoting Genesis from the Septuagint. Then James explains that Pauls' teaching of the verse is opposite of what it actually says.

Dave says- first and foremost, James wrote BEFORE Paul. James is explaining nothing about Paul teaching opposite, because James wrote FIRST.

Secondly, the Maccabees account I read is not near the translation you are replying. And Maccabees is discussing nothing of what we're talking about. Some guy named Matthias is dying and is simply giving a final charge for people to keep up the fighting. His point is that they will receive glory for not giving up.

The Maccabees writer is not concerned with matters of doctrine, nor with the Genesis accounts. I wholeheartedly deny and disagree that James is addressing the Maccabees passage. James is dealing with Genesis, and matters of righteousness. Maccabees is saying nothing of either.
Mike_Peterson

Jackson, MS

#24 Jan 25, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Church history is vital to understand what was original and what was not. There is an excellent link about Marcionism at the site, if you scroll down to new additions. It's one of the first listed.
I'd be interested in your comments, should you read it.
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com
It just amazes me that you 'worship' a guy like Del Tondo. An ex Baptist, Calvinist, ambulance chaser.

You let a man like that change the way you think. Of course, of Church of Christer, a Jesus words only person, a Baptist. Whats the difference. All heresy.#
Dave P

Danielsville, GA

#25 Jan 25, 2014
Romans 4:13 The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Righteousness through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show Godís righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

*Here Paul's teaching principle becomes clear. Works of the law. Simply stating that Jews need the gospel of Christ because they cannot be declared righteous by God by doing "works of law". Rather, it is by faith, which has actions as a necessary part of faith.
Dave P

Danielsville, GA

#26 Jan 25, 2014
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nelsons01.php
This is a sizeable rebuttlal to Judaism vs Christianity and JWO.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#27 Jan 25, 2014
Dave P wrote:
BW says- James is agreeing with Maccabees 2:52 about the matter of Genesis account. "Was not Abraham found faithful in temptation, and it was imputed to him for righteousness?" This verse is precisely what James alludes to in James 2:21. James even phrased it almost identically: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?"
James starts by quoting Genesis from the Septuagint. Then James explains that Pauls' teaching of the verse is opposite of what it actually says.
Dave says- first and foremost, James wrote BEFORE Paul. James is explaining nothing about Paul teaching opposite, because James wrote FIRST.
Secondly, the Maccabees account I read is not near the translation you are replying. And Maccabees is discussing nothing of what we're talking about. Some guy named Matthias is dying and is simply giving a final charge for people to keep up the fighting. His point is that they will receive glory for not giving up.
The Maccabees writer is not concerned with matters of doctrine, nor with the Genesis accounts. I wholeheartedly deny and disagree that James is addressing the Maccabees passage. James is dealing with Genesis, and matters of righteousness. Maccabees is saying nothing of either.
It was just presented as supplemental argument. I have no use yet for Maccabees and consider it among 'writings' and not necessarily 'scripture. Since RCC have it in their Bibles, I thought it would be admissible.

As you bring up, the matter in the book is that of unending faithfulness? Which is what Jesus also taught - faithful from start to finish - grace along the way for us to learn and repent, but return to the best we can do in honor to the Name, rather than bringing the name to disrepute among non-believers.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#28 Jan 25, 2014
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
It just amazes me that you 'worship' a guy like Del Tondo. An ex Baptist, Calvinist, ambulance chaser.
You let a man like that change the way you think. Of course, of Church of Christer, a Jesus words only person, a Baptist. Whats the difference. All heresy.#
We've had several exchanges in the last year or so, and I'd hate to tell you where he's going to Church now, and why. Each of us has to make peace between faith and life as we live it.

He's been to several Churches, and hopefully we all can grow in grace and truth as we continue to study and work out our salvation with fear and trembling - so to speak.

DelTondo has not changed my thinking, he confirmed suspicions I had about Paul that were arrived at by careful study of what Jesus taught VS what Paul taught. DelTondo did a significant favor to encourage further study of what Jesus taught and not think we have to somehow reconcile the teachings of Paul to Jesus. Just take Paul at his own words and he exposed himself quite well - if we take the blinders off that think to prove Paul had anything useful to all to the understanding of the gospel of God.

I thank God every day that I am free of the doctrines of Paul to do the will of God in Spirit and Truth and according to His eternally true word.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#29 Jan 25, 2014
Dave P wrote:
Romans 4:13 The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Righteousness through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show Godís righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
*Here Paul's teaching principle becomes clear. Works of the law. Simply stating that Jews need the gospel of Christ because they cannot be declared righteous by God by doing "works of law". Rather, it is by faith, which has actions as a necessary part of faith.
And according to God, Abraham, Moses and all the prophets, and most importantly Jesus Christ - all the above is not - CERTAINLY NOT - true.

Paul - the enemy of God who sowed tares in the field? I think so.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#30 Jan 25, 2014
Jesus: "Think not I have come to loosen Torah or the Commandments of God."
Dave P

Cleveland, GA

#31 Jan 25, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
And according to God, Abraham, Moses and all the prophets, and most importantly Jesus Christ - all the above is not - CERTAINLY NOT - true.
Paul - the enemy of God who sowed tares in the field? I think so.
You think wrong. And why would I agree with you just because you say so? You show no proof of anything. And mishandle the scriptures when you quote them; and don't even bother to attempt to understand Paul's points before you bash him.

If you are wrong about Paul, and you are, you may be in serious trouble with your Maker.
Dave P

Cleveland, GA

#32 Jan 25, 2014
Ever do a study of the word "apostle"? Do it sometime, and see how it was never just an ecclesiastical title given to the 12.
Dave P

Cleveland, GA

#33 Jan 25, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
And according to God, Abraham, Moses and all the prophets, and most importantly Jesus Christ - all the above is not - CERTAINLY NOT - true.
.
Piece by piece, go through those scriptures by Paul, using the ones you mention, and PROVE the above is not true. Don't just say so- show us.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#34 Jan 26, 2014
Going back to just the quotes you made, and establish an often unobserved fact of distinction that shows Paul's lack of telling the whole truth -

When Israel came out of Egypt they were not alone. There were multitudes of other nationalities that came out with them, who walked the same pathways with them, who crossed the sea, who drank from the water at the rock, who ate manna in the desert, and who were present when God came to the mount and gave the Ten Words to Moses for them all to keep. They were given to Jew and Gentile who sought to follow after the ways God had instructed them as they fled the paganism of Egypt to serve the One True God.

The Torah (Law) throughout the texts of the Torah has words to Jew and Gentile - it wasn't just given to the Jews, and anyone with eyes to see and a mind to comprehend might realize this elemental fact - if they believe what the Scriptures say and what God said. When He gave the Law, He didn't say it was only for the twelve tribes of Israel, He said it was given to those He had delivered out of Egypt - those there that day - and the record is that it was Jew and Gentile.

Where does Paul bring that up?
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#35 Jan 26, 2014
Next is the premise of the Law being a curse and enables the power of sin to kill us... in a nutshell, that's what he claimed, that it magnified sin.

What of the goodness spoken of Gods instructions in righteousness? And since Jesus elevated the Law, not just adultery is condemned, but just to lustfully look at a woman? Which is harder? Or that the Law says 'Thou shalt not kill (murder)', but Jesus says not to even be angry with your brother without cause, call derogatory names or such - Which is harder?

I'm just a human with no degree, but it sure looks to me like the standards of right and wrong decreed by Jesus are far above the standards given by God to Moses. So if what God said actually matters, and Jesus said we are to also keep His words, and that His words lead to eternal life - Why is that which is lessor spoken of as evil, when that which came after not identified as an even greater evil, as it is far more capable to show the infant stages of sin before they grow into one of the Ten Words?

Therefore, I don't think Paul placed value on the teachings of Jesus because of his apparent lack of even knowing them or referring to them in his writings. Nothing Paul taught lines up with either the Laws of God or the Testimony of Jesus Christ. As Paul said, it's his gospel, not the gospel preached by Jesus Christ.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#36 Jan 26, 2014
And going back to all the negative things quoted about the Law of God in the Torah - an extremely important distinction must also be make. Because something is quoted from the Torah -

WHO said the negative things about the Law (Words from God)

the people who heard God speak, or God?

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#37 Jan 26, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
We've had several exchanges in the last year or so, and I'd hate to tell you where he's going to Church now, and why. Each of us has to make peace between faith and life as we live it.
He's been to several Churches, and hopefully we all can grow in grace and truth as we continue to study and work out our salvation with fear and trembling - so to speak.
DelTondo has not changed my thinking, he confirmed suspicions I had about Paul that were arrived at by careful study of what Jesus taught VS what Paul taught. DelTondo did a significant favor to encourage further study of what Jesus taught and not think we have to somehow reconcile the teachings of Paul to Jesus. Just take Paul at his own words and he exposed himself quite well - if we take the blinders off that think to prove Paul had anything useful to all to the understanding of the gospel of God.
I thank God every day that I am free of the doctrines of Paul to do the will of God in Spirit and Truth and according to His eternally true word.
It's all about you BW. You are free from the Kingdom to believe what you want. You continue to split up the Body, however minute that is.

What organization since Jesus was crucified has been protected from all evil, from within, from heresies like yours, and invading armies. Only one. Jesus words said that.

How can you reconcile that?

How can you reconcile that Jesus words say he started that Church?

How can you reconcile that Jesus words say unless you eat his body and drink his blood, you have no life in you?

How can you reconcile that when many of his followers, left him because they said these words from his own mouth were too hard to follow.\

You also believe in Sola Jesus Words only.

What a crock.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#39 Jan 26, 2014
http://www.onediscipletoanother.org

Go ahead - make my day. Show me where I've not dealt honestly and uprightly with His words of life. Anyone dare to try? If I'm wrong, I need to know. If I'm right, you need to know.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#40 Jan 26, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
http://www.onediscipletoanothe r.org
Go ahead - make my day. Show me where I've not dealt honestly and uprightly with His words of life. Anyone dare to try? If I'm wrong, I need to know. If I'm right, you need to know.
You are wrong. You call an Apostle a liar. Peter said that Paul's writing is hard to understand.

You are a prime example of why he gave this warning.

This is why Jesus started a Church and did not leave a book in charge
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#41 Jan 26, 2014
Peter, nor any of the twelve, ever said Paul was an apostle. You solely believe the testimony of Paul regarding his being who he claimed.

Testimony of ones self is not true - Jesus told us that too.
Dave P

Cleveland, GA

#42 Jan 26, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Going back to just the quotes you made, and establish an often unobserved fact of distinction that shows Paul's lack of telling the whole truth -
When Israel came out of Egypt they were not alone. There were multitudes of other nationalities that came out with them, who walked the same pathways with them, who crossed the sea, who drank from the water at the rock, who ate manna in the desert, and who were present when God came to the mount and gave the Ten Words to Moses for them all to keep. They were given to Jew and Gentile who sought to follow after the ways God had instructed them as they fled the paganism of Egypt to serve the One True God.
The Torah (Law) throughout the texts of the Torah has words to Jew and Gentile - it wasn't just given to the Jews, and anyone with eyes to see and a mind to comprehend might realize this elemental fact - if they believe what the Scriptures say and what God said. When He gave the Law, He didn't say it was only for the twelve tribes of Israel, He said it was given to those He had delivered out of Egypt - those there that day - and the record is that it was Jew and Gentile.
Where does Paul bring that up?
One BIG thing you ignore- yes, there was a mixed multitude coming out of Egypt. HOWEVER, the passover was not for all gentiles or all nations. Specifically in Exodus 12:43-49, no foreigner or stranger shall eat it, but if a STRANGER desires to, let them be circumcised and so eat. The whole idea is that these people were joining themselves to Israel, becoming a part of the covenant people. The foreigner, alien was not a part.

Deuteronomy 4:44 states that Moses set this law before the children of ISRAEL; Moses spoke these things to the children of Israel after THEY came out of Egypt. Moses says, "Hear, O ISRAEL; the LORD made this covenant with US".

It later becomes obvious that the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites are not part of the covenant. Basically, the covenant and the law of Moses was for Israel and whoever joined themselves to Israel. THIS WAS NOT FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD, JEW AND GENTILE ALIKE.

*You are attempting to make the law of Moses a general covenant given to all mankind at it's inception- which is nothing short of false doctrine. Bottom line. Law of Moses was given to Israel, and strangers who joined with Israel, not the gentile world at large.

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