Does James teach that both faith and ...

Does James teach that both faith and works are required for salvation?

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Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#2 Jan 24, 2014
Nice try, but not so. Study Jesus. See what He said is required. See what Peter and John also said is required. See what Peter said Moses said is required. Some doctrines originated with Paul. Justification by faith is one of them. Look back to Genesis. When was Abraham "Justified"? It wasn't until after he died! Look again at Genesis 26:5. Even in Revelation (and we know not to add to or take away from even a word of that book!), whether one goes to heaven or to hell is based upon works. The works that save are the commandments of God and instruction from God that Jesus taught.

Faithfulness to God, His Son, and His Word - empowered and enabled by the Spirit - faithful till death.
Jerry Taylor

Axton, VA

#3 Jan 24, 2014
"whether one goes to heaven or to hell is based upon works"

I havent read the link yet but the statement from Barnsweb above is just down right nonsense.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#4 Jan 24, 2014
26 There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.

2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said:“Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Genesis 15 (New King James Version)
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Genesis 15

New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Covenant with Abram

15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,“Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

2 But Abram said,“Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said,“Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said,“Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him,“So shall your descendants be.”

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#5 Jan 24, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Nice try, but not so. Study Jesus. See what He said is required. See what Peter and John also said is required. See what Peter said Moses said is required. Some doctrines originated with Paul. Justification by faith is one of them. Look back to Genesis. When was Abraham "Justified"? It wasn't until after he died! Look again at Genesis 26:5. Even in Revelation (and we know not to add to or take away from even a word of that book!), whether one goes to heaven or to hell is based upon works. The works that save are the commandments of God and instruction from God that Jesus taught.
Faithfulness to God, His Son, and His Word - empowered and enabled by the Spirit - faithful till death.
Bad try. Abraham was declared righteous by God back in Genesis 15 according to Moses and God. Justification by faith originated with God, and James said it before Paul ever said it.

You are good at telling others what they need to look at, study, learn- but you don't put things together chronologically accurate, don't pay attention to what the Scripture actually says, and never address others' points that point out where you are mistaken.

Hard to take your POV seriously like this.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#6 Jan 24, 2014
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Bad try. Abraham was declared righteous by God back in Genesis 15 according to Moses and God. Justification by faith originated with God, and James said it before Paul ever said it.
You are good at telling others what they need to look at, study, learn- but you don't put things together chronologically accurate, don't pay attention to what the Scripture actually says, and never address others' points that point out where you are mistaken.
Hard to take your POV seriously like this.
I noticed the quotes, but they didn't seem to completely say the same things. I'll consult my Complete Jewish Bible as a reference.

Some time later the word of Adonai came to Avram in a vision: "Don't be afraid, Avram. I am your protector; your sure reward will be very great." Avram replied, "Adonai, God, what good will your gifts be to me if I continue childless; and El'ezer from Dammesek inherits my possessions? You haven't given me a child," Avram continued; "so someone born in my house will be my heir." But the word of Adonai came to him; "This man will not be your heir. No, your heir will be a child from your own body." Then he brought him outside and said; "Look up at the sky, and count the stars - if you can count them! Your descendants will be that many!" He believed in Adonai, and he credited to him as righteousness."

Nothing there about the specific "seed" that would bless the nations yet, but that he would have an heir to inherit his estate and that he would have a multitude of descendents. It isn't the covenant of the gospel at all. That is not found until 26:5. Later in chapter 15 we see the matter of Egypt and the land of promise, but not the seed of promise to all nations.

You're wrestling with the word of God - as for me, I choose to listen and not twist it to match the lies of Paul.

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com
onediscipletoanother.org
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#7 Jan 24, 2014
Abraham said God was righteous in His promises to Abraham, God was not saying Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God would grant him an heir. Do recall, capitalization of 'He' is all that is at stake here, and that is a matter of interpretation - not the actual words used.

If Abraham was declared righteous in chapter 15, then what is the point that God would tell one of his descendants something different just 11 chapters later? Was Moses mixed up and made the story up out of whole cloth? Jesus said to believe what Moses said/wrote - so I do.

You don't.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#8 Jan 24, 2014
Jerry Taylor wrote:
"whether one goes to heaven or to hell is based upon works"
I havent read the link yet but the statement from Barnsweb above is just down right nonsense.
Read the last chapter of Revelation, also read the first three chapters. Works, works, works, works, works, works, works, and works and works.

Don't recall His ever saying someone is saved by imputed righteousness.

Did I miss that verse? Bring it up if I did! I'm not perfect.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#9 Jan 24, 2014
in Romans 3:20, Paul says, "Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin", a very clear distinction between works of the law and doing good deeds as a result of your faith.

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”.(James 2:24)

In the story about Judgment Day,(Matthew 25:31-46) where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, the only questions that Jesus asks the multitude concern works:

1. Did you feed the hungry?
2. Did you clothe the naked?
3. Did you give a drink to the thirsty, etc.

If they answered “no” to these works in Matthew 25, then Jesus said that they were going to hell. Nowhere does Jesus ask, "Did you accept me as your personal Lord and Savior?"

Just as it's not enough to tell your wife that you love her, and never do anything for her, it's also true of your faith relationship with Jesus. Faith and performing good works for your fellow man go together like body and soul. You simply aren't alive unless both body and soul are united (James 2:26). It's the same for being alive in Christ - You need faith in Christ first, and then good works (not works of the law) to justify that faith. Neither one on its own will get you into Heaven (once again, deathbed conversions are a different standard), but both in tandem have a symbiotic relationship that results in eternal salvation and heaven. Remember, when all is said and done, we are nothing more that servants of God (Romans 6:22). Any servant has a LOT of work to do.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#10 Jan 24, 2014
Matthew 25:31-46:



"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand,`Come, O blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him,`Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them,`Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand,`Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer,`Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them,`Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#11 Jan 24, 2014
Mike Peterson wrote:
in Romans 3:20, Paul says, "Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin", a very clear distinction between works of the law and doing good deeds as a result of your faith.
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”.(James 2:24)
In the story about Judgment Day,(Matthew 25:31-46) where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, the only questions that Jesus asks the multitude concern works:
1. Did you feed the hungry?
2. Did you clothe the naked?
3. Did you give a drink to the thirsty, etc.
If they answered “no” to these works in Matthew 25, then Jesus said that they were going to hell. Nowhere does Jesus ask, "Did you accept me as your personal Lord and Savior?"
Just as it's not enough to tell your wife that you love her, and never do anything for her, it's also true of your faith relationship with Jesus. Faith and performing good works for your fellow man go together like body and soul. You simply aren't alive unless both body and soul are united (James 2:26). It's the same for being alive in Christ - You need faith in Christ first, and then good works (not works of the law) to justify that faith. Neither one on its own will get you into Heaven (once again, deathbed conversions are a different standard), but both in tandem have a symbiotic relationship that results in eternal salvation and heaven. Remember, when all is said and done, we are nothing more that servants of God (Romans 6:22). Any servant has a LOT of work to do.
I know you love Paul, but I love Jesus. So since Jesus is the object of our faith, please show where Jesus taught this.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#12 Jan 24, 2014
Mike Peterson wrote:
Matthew 25:31-46:
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand,`Come, O blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him,`Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them,`Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand,`Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer,`Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them,`Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Jesus taught faith in action. Faith that does works.

Paul taught that faith without or apart from works saves.

This should be adequate to show the point, and thanks for using His word.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#13 Jan 24, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I know you love Paul, but I love Jesus. So since Jesus is the object of our faith, please show where Jesus taught this.
The Church that Jesus started, and built upon Rock, Peter, decided in AD 390 that Paul's Epistles listed in the Bible is the inerrant written word of God. Not only do you believe in Sola Scriptura but you believe in a personal decision to decide what is the written word of God.

The Bible is a teaching tool. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

In the Old Testament we see God's continual involvement in the lives of the Israelites through appointed prophets. God delivered, instructed and admonished the Israelites. He made His motions in a visible, specific and formal way. He always did so through human hands, mouths, feet, minds and wills. God established a law and a means for executing it.

In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church. Jesus said to Peter, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said "build," as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.

Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)

Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today. We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles. We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, "Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18) There is no Scriptural evidence of independent local churches.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim to have been founded by Christ personally. Every other church traces its lineage back to a mere human person such as Martin Luther or John Wesley. The Catholic Church can trace its lineage back to Jesus Christ who appointed St. Peter as the first pope. This line of popes has continued unbroken for almost 2,000 years.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#14 Jan 24, 2014
If your Church doesn't and can't see the errors of Paul, all that means is that lack the spiritual insight of Peter, that you claim your Church is founded upon.

Books are out there, so you don't need to remain ignorant because your Church scholars are sell-outs.

Paul has been proven false since the first century through the twenty-first centuries, yet lies persist.

Those who sincerely submit to the word and will of God as taught by Jesus Christ don't joint the Catholic Church that I've ever heard examples of. Most are born into it and never question anything.

You seem to fit that pattern.
Dave P

Cleveland, GA

#15 Jan 24, 2014
BW says: Abraham said God was righteous in His promises to Abraham, God was not saying Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God would grant him an heir. Do recall, capitalization of 'He' is all that is at stake here, and that is a matter of interpretation - not the actual words used.

If Abraham was declared righteous in chapter 15, then what is the point that God would tell one of his descendants something different just 11 chapters later? Was Moses mixed up and made the story up out of whole cloth? Jesus said to believe what Moses said/wrote - so I do.

DAVE P- Hey BW, look how your boy James uses this passage. James used this passage like myself and others are using it- and in no way saying what you are trying to make him say. Read it. The whole point James is making is about how ABRAHAM was righteous, not how Abe thought GOD was righteous.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

*Once again, you fail the text and context test. And to say you believe Jesus and Moses- what a crock. You don't even believe James, yet you supposedly put a lot of stock in his words.
Dave P

Cleveland, GA

#16 Jan 24, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I noticed the quotes, but they didn't seem to completely say the same things. I'll consult my Complete Jewish Bible as a reference.

You're wrestling with the word of God - as for me, I choose to listen and not twist it to match the lies of Paul.
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com
onediscipletoanother.org
Yes indeed- use your biased Jewish paraphrase.

You telling someone they are twisting scriptures? Holy pot calling kettle black Batman!
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#17 Jan 25, 2014
Dave P wrote:
BW says: Abraham said God was righteous in His promises to Abraham, God was not saying Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God would grant him an heir. Do recall, capitalization of 'He' is all that is at stake here, and that is a matter of interpretation - not the actual words used.
If Abraham was declared righteous in chapter 15, then what is the point that God would tell one of his descendants something different just 11 chapters later? Was Moses mixed up and made the story up out of whole cloth? Jesus said to believe what Moses said/wrote - so I do.
DAVE P- Hey BW, look how your boy James uses this passage. James used this passage like myself and others are using it- and in no way saying what you are trying to make him say. Read it. The whole point James is making is about how ABRAHAM was righteous, not how Abe thought GOD was righteous.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
*Once again, you fail the text and context test. And to say you believe Jesus and Moses- what a crock. You don't even believe James, yet you supposedly put a lot of stock in his words.
James is agreeing with Maccabees 2:52 about the matter of Genesis account. "Was not Abraham found faithful in temptation, and it was imputed to him for righteousness?" This verse is precisely what James alludes to in James 2:21. James even phrased it almost identically: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?"
James starts by quoting Genesis from the Septuagint. Then James explains that Pauls' teaching of the verse is opposite of what it actually says. Those commentators influenced by Paul, and those who attempt to translate Genesis 15:6 to match Pauls thoughts are mystified how to reconcile Paul and James. Paul clearly taught faith apart from works justifies, where James said only faith and works justifies, because faith without works is dead. The Jewish use for the words faith and faithfulness cannot be separated from works - it would not even make sense - at least the commentators who were pre-Jesus and uninfluenced by Paul.
If the Pauline theology is correct, Abraham must have been a lost and unrepentant sinner who was lost until Genesis 15:6. But Abraham was already in the pathway of believing faith that did as God said and lead, so that can't be true. No matter which side we look at this verse, what Paul said about it cannot be true.
What James was saying was in keeping with the teaching of the sower of the wheat and the ground on which it fell. Not all produced fruit, and for certain reasons that still apply today.
Yes, I think that James used the passage and exact word that Paul used to make an explicit point which shows Pauls' theology and use of the word were in direct conflict with truth as taught by Jesus. I'm glad you brought this up, and it shows you're paying attention to the passages.
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#18 Jan 25, 2014
The passage I used about Abraham was the Genesis 15:6, not the later passage about Isaac. Yes, it's different at the Isaac to be sacrificed event - totally on a different scale than believing God would provide him many descendants. The later passage also goes along with Genesis 26:5 to show God declared Abraham justified after he died - based upon his faithfulness and works in life - declared righteous after he died. This is why Jesus taught that once you die, you cannot change your status, as judgment is based on our faith and works in life and if we believe and do whatever Jesus Commanded - total submission to His rule in our life.

Since: Sep 13

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#19 Jan 25, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
If your Church doesn't and can't see the errors of Paul, all that means is that lack the spiritual insight of Peter, that you claim your Church is founded upon.
Books are out there, so you don't need to remain ignorant because your Church scholars are sell-outs.
Paul has been proven false since the first century through the twenty-first centuries, yet lies persist.
Those who sincerely submit to the word and will of God as taught by Jesus Christ don't joint the Catholic Church that I've ever heard examples of. Most are born into it and never question anything.
You seem to fit that pattern.
A JW has more credibility that you. You currently are a confused puppy. Get you a CCC and start reading that.

Have you be taken by the African internet scam yet?
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#20 Jan 25, 2014
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
A JW has more credibility that you. You currently are a confused puppy. Get you a CCC and start reading that.
Have you be taken by the African internet scam yet?
Sounded like Arabs to me. Posing as Microsoft Techs correcting registry issues?

Tried to crash my computer and deleted my word files I was working on - almost lost about five years of research.... filed a complaint through IC3.gov

Have you?
Barnsweb

Akron, OH

#21 Jan 25, 2014
There are a number of errors of Paul if one believes the previous accounts true. Faith apart from works - or faith that works faithfully - there is a huge difference. James speaks according to the established to be true Jewish perspective, where Paul didn't.

So as I look at the two viewpoints, I think James matches what Jesus taught and Moses through all the OT prophets taught.

Seems to me the established meaning from of old is the best and most consistent view.

Ever checked out Google Books?

They have an on line copy the 1823 book quoted in Jesus' Words Only. The arguments on the topic of Paul have been going on a long time. I think it's called "Not Paul But Jesus"?

The issue about Paul resides in Romans 4:4,5. This is were Paul most clearly identifies the issue as not per works, but quite apart from works.

Jesus taught doing - which is works. I can't make it any more elemental.

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