The Primacy of Peter

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Double Edged Sword

Manassas, VA

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#322
Jun 16, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Name Peter's wife. He had one. I am sure he loved her dearly. He left her under Jesus' directions or she died.
Now you claim William makes things up and I have a tendency to agree on at least the two methods of salvation but talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Of course Peter's wife died at some point but your opinion is he separated from his wife when he came to Jesus. That is made up, especially in LIGHT of 1 Cor 9:6.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#323
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Maybe he wants to pray to Peter's wife, as well as Mary?:-)
Bible Talk

Manassas, VA

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#324
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Mike, can't you see you have to be honest with the scriptures? Our understanding can be wrong we do not have the freedom to add or remove. Because we do not like the double edged sword of the word does not change it. Can't you see we should align with it? Not align it with us? How can you insist Peter did not take his wife with him in LIGHT of 1 Cor 9:6? Think about it, seriously.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#325
Jun 16, 2013
 

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"Your main doctrine is SS, which means you are free to make things up."

I study to show myself approved unto God as Paul told Timothy in his second letter to him. I don't study to gain the approval of some priest, the Pope, or Mary so that she can "pray for me."

"Name one Protestant from AD 100 to Ad 1500."

Every gentile that Paul, Timothy, Silas, et al, preached to for starters. Name instance that these men told any gentile church about the "primacy of Peter" and the "co-redemptrix" nature of Mary.

"Of course you disagree with all other Protestants so your Christian history started what, maybe 30 years ago."

Mine started in Acts 9 when the Apostle Paul became the apostle to the gentiles and was given the gospel of the grace of God. Your church started in AD 300 when Constantine formed it. It certainly wasn't in Acts 2, since that was a purely Jewish church there in Jerusalem.

You lose. Again.

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#326
Jun 16, 2013
 

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TU ES PETRUS
http://youtu.be/c6NyDUMgXoU

Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram
Aedificabo Ecclesiam meam,
Et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam:
Et tibi dabo claves
Regni coelorum.
Quodcumque ligaveris super terram,
Erit ligatum et in coelis;
Et quodcumque solveris super terram
Erit solutum et in coelis.


You are Peter, and on this rock
I will build My church,
And the gates of hell will not prevail against it:
And I will give you the keys
To the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth
Will be bound also in heaven;
And whatever you release on earth
Will be released also in heaven.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#327
Jun 16, 2013
 

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William wrote:
"Your main doctrine is SS, which means you are free to make things up."
I study to show myself approved unto God as Paul told Timothy in his second letter to him. I don't study to gain the approval of some priest, the Pope, or Mary so that she can "pray for me."
"Name one Protestant from AD 100 to Ad 1500."
Every gentile that Paul, Timothy, Silas, et al, preached to for starters. Name instance that these men told any gentile church about the "primacy of Peter" and the "co-redemptrix" nature of Mary.
"Of course you disagree with all other Protestants so your Christian history started what, maybe 30 years ago."
Mine started in Acts 9 when the Apostle Paul became the apostle to the gentiles and was given the gospel of the grace of God. Your church started in AD 300 when Constantine formed it. It certainly wasn't in Acts 2, since that was a purely Jewish church there in Jerusalem.
You lose. Again.
"I study to show myself approved unto God as Paul told Timothy in his second letter to him"

Does Paul or Timothy grade your papers for the Catholic book you study?

'Every gentile that Paul, Timothy, Silas, et al, preached to for starter"

Did not answer question because you can't. Every non-Catholic claims anybody named in the Bible. There is no protestant between AD 100 and AD 1500. NONE.

"You lose again"

I am glad to be on other side of those beliefs. Study some history and learn something.

Name anybody in any Church between 100 AD and Constantine.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#328
Jun 16, 2013
 

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MarkEden wrote:
TU ES PETRUS
http://youtu.be/c6NyDUMgXoU
Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram
Aedificabo Ecclesiam meam,
Et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam:
Et tibi dabo claves
Regni coelorum.
Quodcumque ligaveris super terram,
Erit ligatum et in coelis;
Et quodcumque solveris super terram
Erit solutum et in coelis.
You are Peter, and on this rock
I will build My church,
And the gates of hell will not prevail against it:
And I will give you the keys
To the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth
Will be bound also in heaven;
And whatever you release on earth
Will be released also in heaven.
All through Scripture there is an order in directions for the economy of God, and that is the same as the Lord's prayer. Heaven to earth. NOT earth binding heaven or God. Again, you're basing your viewpoint on twisted discernment of the words in Scripture. The Holy Spirit was to reveal to them, they revealed to us. We cannot go against what God has declared true and be found testifying of the truth of God. It's not that hard to grasp, is it?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#329
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Well then, show yourself to be in the truth of God as He has given us:-) Otherwise, stand corrected and thank me:-)
Bible Talk

Chicago, IL

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#330
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
Maybe he wants to pray to Peter's wife, as well as Mary?:-)
No doubt, they pray to Mary, every dead saint they can think of, the Pope, and get forgiveness from their priests. Sooner or later they might make a little room for Jesus.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#331
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
All through Scripture there is an order in directions for the economy of God, and that is the same as the Lord's prayer. Heaven to earth. NOT earth binding heaven or God. Again, you're basing your viewpoint on twisted discernment of the words in Scripture. The Holy Spirit was to reveal to them, they revealed to us. We cannot go against what God has declared true and be found testifying of the truth of God. It's not that hard to grasp, is it?
The Greek verifies that heaven binds to earth, not earth to heaven. You are correct. Does the Aramaic tenses also verify?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#332
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Bible Talk wrote:
<quoted text>No doubt, they pray to Mary, every dead saint they can think of, the Pope, and get forgiveness from their priests. Sooner or later they might make a little room for Jesus.
I don't understand why you want to go to heaven if everybody is dead there.

It is called eternal life.

The prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

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#333
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't understand why you want to go to heaven if everybody is dead there.
It is called eternal life.
The prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
The Litany of the Saints is basically a list of holy men and women from the New Testament as well as some from the following centuries even to the present day. It is sung or read at certain times in Catholic as well as some Protestant churches. Perhaps the most moving and deeply spiritual time is during the ordination of a priest. The candidate for ordination is prostrate on the floor and the people begin the Litany of the Saints asking all who have gone before to pray for the soon to be ordained man. I am providing a link to a contemporary version of this Litany but there is a traditional one as well more often heard in Latin as well as every language around the world. http://youtu.be/NOxMzNLiEEY
Bible Talk

Manassas, VA

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#334
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't understand why you want to go to heaven if everybody is dead there.
It is called eternal life.
The prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
I disagree about Catholics praying to saints. Only having been to one mass in my life whether saints are prayed to there I cannot say. I have purchased a while back the bible from presumably a deceased Catholic. It has a smell from being stored that I recognize often in books that are shelved for a period of time. I get a erie feeling opening a personal bible from someone likely deceased and obviously having battled cancer. It is a special bible to me as somehow I fell the struggles this person may have went through. Inside are prayers and one you may be familiar with. the card ha a picture of St. Anthony Mary Claret/ Claretian Center/ L.A. California on one side. On the other side is "PRAYER to St. Anthony Mary Claret for the cure of cancer, or other serious ailment" followed by a prayer that is to long to type. The prayer is definitely to the saint is my point. That you call tradition, but whose? God or man? I think some examples of praying to saints that have passed on to intercede for someone should be in the scriptures somewhere. Nevertheless I do feel for this person whose bible I now have.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#335
Jun 17, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
The Greek verifies that heaven binds to earth, not earth to heaven. You are correct. Does the Aramaic tenses also verify?
I'm not much of an English expert, let alone Aramaic. I'll quote the verse from the AENT and the study note.
Mt 16:19
"To you I will give the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and anything you bind*164 on earth will be bound in heaven, and all things *165 you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven."

The footnotes have to do with binding and loosing based on Torah findings. Torah findings is to judge according to truth in the standards of judgment as declared by God.

We see an example of this in Acts 15:28,29 - according to the AENT author/translator. However, I must say I disagree with his point that circumcision is for Gentile believers....
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#336
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not much of an English expert, let alone Aramaic. I'll quote the verse from the AENT and the study note.
Mt 16:19
"To you I will give the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and anything you bind*164 on earth will be bound in heaven, and all things *165 you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven."
The footnotes have to do with binding and loosing based on Torah findings. Torah findings is to judge according to truth in the standards of judgment as declared by God.
We see an example of this in Acts 15:28,29 - according to the AENT author/translator. However, I must say I disagree with his point that circumcision is for Gentile believers....
It means the St Peter and his successors speaks for Jesus. Whoever hears you hears me.

Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#337
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't understand why you want to go to heaven if everybody is dead there.
It is called eternal life.
The prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Sounds to me the prayers of living saints are in the Revelation passage and that the Ps passages have to do with angels. Are not the 'host of heaven' the angels?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#338
Jun 17, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds to me the prayers of living saints are in the Revelation passage and that the Ps passages have to do with angels. Are not the 'host of heaven' the angels?
Exactly living in heaven.

Why do you have a such a hard problem of believing that people are alive in heaven? It is called eternal life.

And yes Ps deal with angels. Don't you believe there are angels alive in heaven.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#339
Jun 17, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly living in heaven.
Why do you have a such a hard problem of believing that people are alive in heaven? It is called eternal life.
And yes Ps deal with angels. Don't you believe there are angels alive in heaven.
Mike, that is a good question. Either we go to be with the Lord at death or we must wait for the resurrection of the saints at some time in the future.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#340
Jun 17, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds to me the prayers of living saints are in the Revelation passage and that the Ps passages have to do with angels. Are not the 'host of heaven' the angels?
Exactly. The bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints-have to believe those are coming from living saints on earth. At first the 24 elders have these bowls; but by chapter 8 an angel offers these prayers at the altar.

The whole point and context is that God hears our prayers and that He will deal with the troubles and tribulations His people go through due to wickedness. Nothing suggests those in heaven are praying for us. Those angels aren't even praying; they are serving in the heavenly tabernacle.

The souls under the altar in Revelation are crying out for vengeance. When Saul called up Samuel he asked why do you disturb me? Fact is, we don't have a lot of Biblical info on just what the departed souls in the Lord are doing at the present, other than the passage in Luke 16 from Abraham's bosom; paradise; being with the Lord, etc.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#341
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Bobby wrote:
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Mike, that is a good question. Either we go to be with the Lord at death or we must wait for the resurrection of the saints at some time in the future.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"
Having said that, I do not believe that we should ever pray to angels or men even if they are alive in heaven-the scripture backs that up. Why would would we do that when God hears our prayers, in other words why not go straight to him through our mediator Christ Jesus.

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