Early Believers and Scripture

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Since: Sep 13

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#1 Oct 4, 2013
The early believers held to the Scriptures as being the absolute Word of Godís truth.

The early Church understood apostolic doctrine as the written Word of God.

From the very start of the post-apostolic age in the writings of such Apostolic Fathers as Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, and Barnabas, there was an exclusive appeal to the Scriptures for the positive teaching of doctrine and for defense against heresy.

In the writings of these men, the authority cited is that of the Old and New Testaments. In the written texts of the apologists, such as Justin Martyr and Athenagoras, the same exclusive appeal to Scripture is evident.

There was no appeal in any of these writings to the authority of an extra-biblical tradition as a separate body of revelation. Rather, it is in the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian in the mid to late second century that the concept of an apostolic tradition, which was handed down in the Church in oral form, was first encountered. Irenaeus and Tertullian stated forcefully that all the teachings of the bishops that were given orally were rooted in Scripture and could be proven from the written Scriptures.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#2 Oct 4, 2013
Answering Catholics wrote:
The early believers held to the Scriptures as being the absolute Word of Godís truth.
The early Church understood apostolic doctrine as the written Word of God.
From the very start of the post-apostolic age in the writings of such Apostolic Fathers as Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, and Barnabas, there was an exclusive appeal to the Scriptures for the positive teaching of doctrine and for defense against heresy.
In the writings of these men, the authority cited is that of the Old and New Testaments. In the written texts of the apologists, such as Justin Martyr and Athenagoras, the same exclusive appeal to Scripture is evident.
There was no appeal in any of these writings to the authority of an extra-biblical tradition as a separate body of revelation. Rather, it is in the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian in the mid to late second century that the concept of an apostolic tradition, which was handed down in the Church in oral form, was first encountered. Irenaeus and Tertullian stated forcefully that all the teachings of the bishops that were given orally were rooted in Scripture and could be proven from the written Scriptures.
So why don't you believe what they taught?

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#3 Oct 4, 2013
Simply hilarious! Somebody pick me off of the floor. These two clowns are funny!
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

#4 Oct 4, 2013
Answering Catholics wrote:
Simply hilarious! Somebody pick me off of the floor. These two clowns are funny!
Perhaps you might want to rephrase that.
Roman Catholic Sproul

France

#5 Oct 4, 2013
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>Perhaps you might want to rephrase that.
Pearl, you remember the link I asked you to listen to? Did it make any sense? I thought it was good myself, curious as to what you thought.
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

#6 Oct 4, 2013
Roman Catholic Sproul wrote:
<quoted text>Pearl, you remember the link I asked you to listen to? Did it make any sense? I thought it was good myself, curious as to what you thought.
Meh. But hey, I'm a non-believer, so I'm not so easily swayed. Making a living off God are ya?
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

#7 Oct 4, 2013
Roman Catholic Sproul wrote:
<quoted text>Pearl, you remember the link I asked you to listen to? Did it make any sense? I thought it was good myself, curious as to what you thought.
alright, alright you have a good speaking voice. Feel better?, There. good deed for the day...check.
Roman Catholic Sproul

France

#8 Oct 4, 2013
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>Meh. But hey, I'm a non-believer, so I'm not so easily swayed. Making a living off God are ya?
It's an interest of mine. Everyone starts out as an unbeliever. Thanks for listening, no sales pitch. We all gotta get by somehow. Mark is just jealous of me, I don't make as much money as he thinks I do.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#9 Oct 4, 2013
The 'early believers' made no distinction between Scripture as 'OT' and 'NT', and when the idea was proposed thought it injustice to the word of God. The gospel accounts have Y'shua pointing out that he came to fulfill the promises and prophecies of the old - He establishes their fulfillment in Him. He never taught anything that was not the true intent of what was already in the Scripture. The whole idea of OT and NT is theological hogwash foisted on us by evil men who didn't believe the conditions of the covenants of God applied to them, as they did their best to nullify what was given as the truth from God.

Romans is a good place to note the issue, if you'll bear with me a bit.

Paul equates the faith of Abraham being counted to him for righteousness by God, and that salvation is by faith and not of works. Isn't that what Paul taught? Didn't Paul say it was of faith and not of works, lest any man should boast?

Here's the challenge: Go to the gospel accounts and see if you can find Jesus teaching this anywhere - that works don't matter, but faith does. If you can't find it in the gospels, perhaps you can find it in Revelation?

You can spend hundreds of hours looking for this.
Unless you're on the cross with Jesus, you shouldn't judge yourself an equal with the thief who said 'Remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Where did Jesus equate faith without works? A rare account is found where one man invited Him to dinner and repented to repay anyone back if he was unjust in his accounting. There, with belief, repentance and recompense we see Jesus say 'Today has salvation come to this house.' It was his works worthy of repentance that saved him - without repentance there is no salvation, and repentance is to turn and do what God said justice/rightness/righteousnes s is.

Whether you know it or not, the Genesis passage quoted by Paul in Romans is not the covenant passage. Furthermore, the passage is quite inexplicit as to who is counting to whom as righteousness. Study of Hebrew scholars on this passage is interesting, and some even quote Paul's use of the text to make his point in Romans as part of the discussion. The fact is, however, that it is not perfectly clear in the Hebrew if it was Abraham counting God as righteous for making the promise of his seed being as numerous as the stars, or if God was counting Abrahams faith in His promise to righteousness to him.

If it was the faith of Abraham, without works, that was accounted to him as righteousness, then why would God make the statement He made in Genesis 26:5 that the cause of Abraham and his descendants covenant was Abrahams obedience to Gods commandments and charge and word?

And what did Jesus teach? Did Jesus ever equate the 'faith' of Abraham to be counted to him as righteousness - apart from obedience or works? No.
Rather, we can all see that Jesus taught about belief that works - belief that repents to do the will of God, and that not doing as God said is condemned. We pass from death to life when we first believe and repent to do whatever He taught. And by the word of the Holy Spirit through Peter, we know the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham has certain required action on our part as well as those who first heard Peter on Pentecost.

Finally, all through Revelation we see Jesus is looking at our works - from the start to the finish of the book.

Who are we to believe?

"Why do you call Me 'Lord' and not do as I say?"
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#11 Oct 5, 2013
Too bad this isn't the "no spin, no bloviating zone". Bill O'Really would not be happy with the last post.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#12 Oct 6, 2013
In the story about Judgment Day,(Matthew 25:31-46) where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, the only questions that Jesus asks the multitude concern works:

1. Did you feed the hungry?
2. Did you clothe the naked?
3. Did you give a drink to the thirsty, etc.

If they answered ďnoĒ to these works in Matthew 25, then Jesus said that they were going to hell. Nowhere does Jesus ask, "Did you accept me as your personal Lord and Savior?"
William

Alexander City, AL

#13 Oct 6, 2013
It's odd that Jesus didn't tell them about Ephesians 2:8-10 in that speech.

Bad Intel?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#14 Oct 6, 2013
Not odd. Matthew 25 is just part of the Word of God. There is the rest of written scripture and Tradition. You have to believe it all.

Why do you believe only part?

Some man taught you instead of the Jesus' Church started, that is why
William

Opelika, AL

#15 Oct 6, 2013
Are you feeding and taking care of his brethren?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#16 Oct 7, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Not odd. Matthew 25 is just part of the Word of God. There is the rest of written scripture and Tradition. You have to believe it all.
Why do you believe only part?
Some man taught you instead of the Jesus' Church started, that is why
Isnt it amazing that Christ did not tell anyone the church would teach them?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#17 Oct 7, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Isnt it amazing that Christ did not tell anyone the church would teach them?
Sure he did.

He just didn't mention anything about reading a book and every one gets to decide what it means and that is how you decide how to gain eternal salvation.

That book even tells you the Church is the pillar of Truth just like Jesus set it up.

From History, we know it is the Catholic Church. It has been the only one around for the whole 2,000 years.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#18 Oct 7, 2013
This link http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp155.htm explains your confusion about the Church being the pillar of truth. Remove your Catholic blinders!

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#19 Oct 7, 2013
Answering Catholics wrote:
This link http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp155.htm explains your confusion about the Church being the pillar of truth. Remove your Catholic blinders!
Just another cult out to make a buck.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#20 Oct 8, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure he did.
He just didn't mention anything about reading a book and every one gets to decide what it means and that is how you decide how to gain eternal salvation.
That book even tells you the Church is the pillar of Truth just like Jesus set it up.
From History, we know it is the Catholic Church. It has been the only one around for the whole 2,000 years.
Go ahead show us the word of Christ telling his followers that the church would do the teaching and not them.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#21 Oct 8, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Go ahead show us the word of Christ telling his followers that the church would do the teaching and not them.
The Apostles started the Church. It is visible thing. Jesus had already selected Peter as the head guy. Did you notice he said that right after Jesus told Peter that the Father had spoken to Peter. Peter was the only Apostle the Father spoke to directly.

The low end Prots made it invisible in the 17th century.

Who taught you? I don't think you ever answered that. Apparently websites teach you.

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