Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#63 Jul 13, 2013
William wrote:
A Catholic article in a negative light about somebody else adopting Jewish rituals is wildly funny. Catholicism owns the copyright on warmed-over Judaism.
What to see something funny. Compare the first 1500 years of Christian worship to the COC worship, some community I never really heard of until a few months ago, and see if they resemble each other.

Hilarious.

Baptist Church, Church of God, Church of Christ , Church of God in Christ, Bible Church. I thought they were all the same with different preacher man believing something different. Am I missing something.

Messianic Jews is just the latest fad. A few years old.

Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#64 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
If the thoughts that Randy and I have are correct (and so far Bobby agrees in theory), then what we are truly to be baptized for is simply because we look at the gospel facts, recognize Jesus is who He claimed to be, and realize that we put Him on that cross and desire that we be forgiven.
When we believe God and His promises, we act on them and God keeps His promises to us. That makes forgiveness and the Spirit both results, not reasons.
There are a lot more people baptized into Christ than the coc will acknowledge.
In theory yes, but in the real world many people come to faith without having the opportunity to be water baptized. When Abraham was justified by faith there was no law-plus he never knew of a thing called water baptism. It looks like God would have said to the woman in gen 3: I will send you sometime in the future a savior which is my part + water baptism which is your part and together they will rescue you. Instead he said: he would send us a Savior to rescue us.

Speaking to the serpent God said: And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#65 Jul 13, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
In theory yes, but in the real world many people come to faith without having the opportunity to be water baptized. When Abraham was justified by faith there was no law-plus he never knew of a thing called water baptism. It looks like God would have said to the woman in gen 3: I will send you sometime in the future a savior which is my part + water baptism which is your part and together they will rescue you. Instead he said: he would send us a Savior to rescue us.
Speaking to the serpent God said: And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.
Ok. We have been going good here for a while Bobby. Let's not mess this up ;)

Simply- you react in faith to what has been revealed to you. The OT people, pre-law and law period, didn't have any such idea as baptism revealed to them. God didn't reveal that. So many of them acted in faith to what was revealed to them.

Move forward to the time of John and Jesus, baptism was revealed to man. Baptism is God's will for man; even those like you who don't believe baptism to be salvific admit and agree that baptism is something God commanded and needs to be obeyed out of a desire to obey God, correct? If someone is truly convicted of sin, will they not have a desire to do whatever the Master says? We don't have to force people to the water, they will desire to do so.

As for those today, who may not have opportunity to be baptized-
A- Isn't this really a strawman argument? 99% DO have the chance.
B- Where there's a will there's a way. If God is willing (He is) and a person is willing, I still believe in God's providence. He will provide a way.
C- As for that 1%? Those that may believe but really do not get the opportunity before it's too late- let God decide that.

I will say this- perhaps we should all make sure we don't let the time slip away and get caught in that situation. We're not promised another minute. God will deal with those and make the call; I will not. I, ME, am responsible to respond to what I know.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#66 Jul 13, 2013
Compare the first 1500 years of Christian worship to the COC worship, some community I never really heard of until a few months ago, and see if they resemble each other.

Side note- notice the similarity in RCC and COC belief on "worship"? All about what takes place inside the building, paintings, music, windows, rituals, etc?

Other than the snazzy outfits, fancy singing, nice big cathedrals with paintings and stained glass windows, RCC and COC really aren't much different at all. Some have even said the coc has a pope.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#67 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Compare the first 1500 years of Christian worship to the COC worship, some community I never really heard of until a few months ago, and see if they resemble each other.
Side note- notice the similarity in RCC and COC belief on "worship"? All about what takes place inside the building, paintings, music, windows, rituals, etc?
Other than the snazzy outfits, fancy singing, nice big cathedrals with paintings and stained glass windows, RCC and COC really aren't much different at all. Some have even said the coc has a pope.
Here is the similarity between COC and the CC. They believe in Jesus.

Nothing else. There are no low church protestants similar to Catholicism.

The high church Anglicans and Episcopalians do the best job of "playing Church".

Many of them are tired of playing and are coming home.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#68 Jul 13, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is the similarity between COC and the CC. They believe in Jesus.
Nothing else. There are no low church protestants similar to Catholicism.
The high church Anglicans and Episcopalians do the best job of "playing Church".
Faith in Christ isn't enough?

High church- why don't we see any high church ceremonies in the scriptures? What we see described is very simple, unsophisticated assemblies.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#69 Jul 13, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
There are no low church protestants similar to Catholicism.
Read some of these forums, the attitudes of Heath, Johnny Robertson and others. The practices of the non instrumental churches of Christ. They are almost the epitome of low church catholicism. The doctrines are very close on baptism; divorce teaching is identical. The ideas of proper worship. Instead of a pope, either a powerful evangelist or the group of congregational elders serve as the "head" of coc congregations.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#70 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Faith in Christ isn't enough?
High church- why don't we see any high church ceremonies in the scriptures? What we see described is very simple, unsophisticated assemblies.
Dave Dave Dave you may read simple descriptions but you have no idea what the participants were wearing, nothing about the surroundings, nothing about the accoutrements, nothing about the sound of chanting. One thing is for sure the Passover Seder and Sabbath meals were a time to pull out all the stops and there is no reason to believe this did not extend into celebrating and sharing the Eucharist. After the persecutions began and worship moved underground we have a better record because of the catacomb paintings still extant. I think if you folks want to sing like the early Christians you had best hire a hazzan to teach you.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#71 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Read some of these forums, the attitudes of Heath, Johnny Robertson and others. The practices of the non instrumental churches of Christ. They are almost the epitome of low church catholicism. The doctrines are very close on baptism; divorce teaching is identical. The ideas of proper worship. Instead of a pope, either a powerful evangelist or the group of congregational elders serve as the "head" of coc congregations.
Low church Catholicism does not exist. It never has anywhere at anytime. Low Church and High Church are a prot invention.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#72 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok. We have been going good here for a while Bobby. Let's not mess this up ;)
Simply- you react in faith to what has been revealed to you. The OT people, pre-law and law period, didn't have any such idea as baptism revealed to them. God didn't reveal that. So many of them acted in faith to what was revealed to them.
Move forward to the time of John and Jesus, baptism was revealed to man. Baptism is God's will for man; even those like you who don't believe baptism to be salvific admit and agree that baptism is something God commanded and needs to be obeyed out of a desire to obey God, correct? If someone is truly convicted of sin, will they not have a desire to do whatever the Master says? We don't have to force people to the water, they will desire to do so.
As for those today, who may not have opportunity to be baptized-
A- Isn't this really a strawman argument? 99% DO have the chance.
B- Where there's a will there's a way. If God is willing (He is) and a person is willing, I still believe in God's providence. He will provide a way.
C- As for that 1%? Those that may believe but really do not get the opportunity before it's too late- let God decide that.
I will say this- perhaps we should all make sure we don't let the time slip away and get caught in that situation. We're not promised another minute. God will deal with those and make the call; I will not. I, ME, am responsible to respond to what I know.
Here is the issue that concerns me. You have problems with William dividing the Jews and gentiles on the basis that you believe there is one gospel for both Jew and Gentile, I agree. Have you considered that all people from Adam until now are saved the same way, not several gospels but one. Sense Jesus is the gospel and not the law or not water baptism but by the grace God through faith in his son Jesus. All throughout the OT there was the promise of the Messiah who would rescue them. The only difference is that Jesus has come and shed his blood once for all-they looked forward to his coming with expectation, we look back to the cross knowing the fulfillment of the promise has come.

Now, why would you think there should be two gospels, one with faith-Abraham being justified by faith and today we are being justified by faith plus water baptism? That is clearly two different gospels. Water baptism is an obedience issue not a salvation issue. Every other form of disobedience can be be overcome by the cross except water baptism?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#73 Jul 13, 2013
We have the same promise as Abraham.

1 cor 3:11 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#74 Jul 13, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is the issue that concerns me. You have problems with William dividing the Jews and gentiles on the basis that you believe there is one gospel for both Jew and Gentile, I agree. Have you considered that all people from Adam until now are saved the same way, not several gospels but one. Sense Jesus is the gospel and not the law or not water baptism but by the grace God through faith in his son Jesus. All throughout the OT there was the promise of the Messiah who would rescue them. The only difference is that Jesus has come and shed his blood once for all-they looked forward to his coming with expectation, we look back to the cross knowing the fulfillment of the promise has come.
Now, why would you think there should be two gospels, one with faith-Abraham being justified by faith and today we are being justified by faith plus water baptism? That is clearly two different gospels. Water baptism is an obedience issue not a salvation issue. Every other form of disobedience can be be overcome by the cross except water baptism?
Revelation Bobby. We have to act on what God has revealed to us. We are all saved the same way, by obedient faith. This sounds familiar. God hadn't revealed the law to Abraham. God didn't reveal a lot of things to Israel until John and Jesus arrived. After He reveals something, He expects us to obey it doesn't He?

Are you saying baptism isn't a part of having faith? Without having faith baptism is pointless isn't it? God has told us something that He didn't tell others. We're not the first to be done this way by God.

Moses didn't say "Hey God, this isn't right, you didn't tell Abraham all of this stuff." He basically said ok, this is what God would have us to do. This is why I posted some of those articles on God's purposes- He reveals things for us to know Him. It's His decision about when to reveal things. Do we say it's not right, it's not fair, it's two different gospels; or do we say ok God?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#75 Jul 13, 2013
This is just so you folks can see how seriously the Catholic Church has for centuries viewed the Sacrament of Baptism. Don't bother telling me you can't find all of this in the New Testament.

http://fisheaters.com/baptism2.html
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#76 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Revelation Bobby. We have to act on what God has revealed to us. We are all saved the same way, by obedient faith. This sounds familiar. God hadn't revealed the law to Abraham. God didn't reveal a lot of things to Israel until John and Jesus arrived. After He reveals something, He expects us to obey it doesn't He?
Are you saying baptism isn't a part of having faith? Without having faith baptism is pointless isn't it? God has told us something that He didn't tell others. We're not the first to be done this way by God.
Moses didn't say "Hey God, this isn't right, you didn't tell Abraham all of this stuff." He basically said ok, this is what God would have us to do. This is why I posted some of those articles on God's purposes- He reveals things for us to know Him. It's His decision about when to reveal things. Do we say it's not right, it's not fair, it's two different gospels; or do we say ok God?
I agree that he reveals things for us to know him better.

Saved by obedience/obedient faith, I don't see that in the scripture because we all know that we have things we disobey all of the time. Why should one act of disobedience send us to hell whereas another act of disobedience cannot be be forgiven. One is covered by the blood, the other is the unpardonable sin? Check out all on the saints recorded in scripture and we see that all of them had sin in their lives just like we do. Peter even denied Jesus three times. So, what act of disobedience is blasphemy?

I believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is rejecting the gospel until death.

So if we believe that water baptism is not necessary for salvation and we are wrong, is that because God has not revealed that to us yet, or is it the other way around-when others believe water baptism is salvific? What happens if they are wrong? Under the banner of grace both are forgiven!
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#77 Jul 13, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
This is just so you folks can see how seriously the Catholic Church has for centuries viewed the Sacrament of Baptism. Don't bother telling me you can't find all of this in the New Testament.
http://fisheaters.com/baptism2.html
Interesting.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#78 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
If the thoughts that Randy and I have are correct (and so far Bobby agrees in theory), then what we are truly to be baptized for is simply because we look at the gospel facts, recognize Jesus is who He claimed to be, and realize that we put Him on that cross and desire that we be forgiven.
When we believe God and His promises, we act on them and God keeps His promises to us. That makes forgiveness and the Spirit both results, not reasons.
There are a lot more people baptized into Christ than the coc will acknowledge.
That is how I understand EIS. It does point towards remission of sins and the gift of the Spirit BUT hinges upon truths of the gospel. The commands are repent and be baptized ... why? Because Jesus raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of God. The results are two promises ... remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Could repentance and baptism have meaning if not for the work if Jesus. In other words we all look UNTO the cross when we repent and when we are baptized. EIS would have no meaning if not for Jesus.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#80 Jul 13, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree that he reveals things for us to know him better.
Saved by obedience/obedient faith, I don't see that in the scripture because we all know that we have things we disobey all of the time. Why should one act of disobedience send us to hell whereas another act of disobedience cannot be be forgiven. One is covered by the blood, the other is the unpardonable sin? Check out all on the saints recorded in scripture and we see that all of them had sin in their lives just like we do. Peter even denied Jesus three times. So, what act of disobedience is blasphemy?
I believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is rejecting the gospel until death.
So if we believe that water baptism is not necessary for salvation and we are wrong, is that because God has not revealed that to us yet, or is it the other way around-when others believe water baptism is salvific? What happens if they are wrong? Under the banner of grace both are forgiven!
Are you rejecting baptism, or just the part of it being something God requires?
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#81 Jul 13, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
That is how I understand EIS. It does point towards remission of sins and the gift of the Spirit BUT hinges upon truths of the gospel. The commands are repent and be baptized ... why? Because Jesus raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of God. The results are two promises ... remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Could repentance and baptism have meaning if not for the work if Jesus. In other words we all look UNTO the cross when we repent and when we are baptized. EIS would have no meaning if not for Jesus.
I agree with you. We're looking back at events from the past, but the action is forward for us. Forward to remission, forward to the Spirit. Without Christ none of it matters.

Bobby is still having a little trouble with our view here. He does not want to say that baptism has anything to do with salvation. We have all beaten that path to death. The main thing is faith and repentance in who Jesus is, the gospel, etc. Baptism is still part of that. God said it, just do it.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#82 Jul 13, 2013
It appears that Bobby you still have issues with our knowledge; what WE BELIEVE about baptism when its done. All we have to go by is scripture, and Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved; if we repent and are baptized God will forgive us and give us His Spirit.

Do we believe Jesus is the Son of God; He died for sin; rose the third day? Do we repent? Will we be baptized? If the answer is yes to all, why won't God keep His promises?

Was anyone else in scripture questioned about their beliefs on baptism more than this? I don't see it.

As for revelation, the NT is the end of God's revelation. We know all we need to. What will we do with that knowledge?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#83 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with you. We're looking back at events from the past, but the action is forward for us. Forward to remission, forward to the Spirit. Without Christ none of it matters.
Bobby is still having a little trouble with our view here. He does not want to say that baptism has anything to do with salvation. We have all beaten that path to death. The main thing is faith and repentance in who Jesus is, the gospel, etc. Baptism is still part of that. God said it, just do it.
Our take on this doesn't allow for faith only. But it allows for anyone who believes and is baptized. Bobby still sees this as works and may reject our take on this.

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