He that believes and is baptized will be saved

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X-CofC

Martinsville, VA

#1 Jul 9, 2013
In many Church of Christ circles today is a generally held opinion that unless a person has been specifically baptized for the remission of sins, understanding that such is the purpose for baptism and that one is not saved until he is baptized, his baptism is invalid.

In other words, to be baptized out of a desire to follow our Lord's example is not sufficient. To be baptized out of a desire to please the Lord is not good enough. And not even to be baptized out of a desire to obey one of our Lord's commands (as set forth in Scripture) is sufficient. Rather, one must understand a particular thing about baptism: That it is for the remission of sins, and that a person is lost until he is baptized. If this is not clearly understood, then a person is lost, even if he was baptized out of a desire to obey the Lord's command to be baptized … according to the Church of Christ.

It is one thing to say that the purpose of baptism is "for the remission of ins" ("so that your sins may be forgiven"), but quite another thing to say that "for the remission of sins" is part of a baptismal formula which must be said over the one being baptized. And, it is quite another thing to say that the purpose of baptism must be understood in its full significance by the one being baptized (that is, that the person being baptized understands that he is not saved until he is baptized). That the purpose of baptism is "for the remission of sins," rests upon an express statement of Scripture. That "for the remission of sins" is part of a baptismal formula that must be repeated over the one being baptized, has no express statement of Scripture to rest upon, and thus is, at best, only a speculation or opinion of man. The same is true with regard to the claim that the one being baptized must understand that he is not saved until he is baptized. There is no express statement of Scripture which indicates such, and thus it is only a speculation or opinion of man.

Anyone who is baptized out of a desire to obey the divine command to be baptized, regardless of the particular denominational environment that it may have occurred in; and regardless of his understanding as to what point salvation comes in relation to the act of baptism is my brother in Christ Jesus. After all, in an express statement of Scripture, we have a record of where our Lord himself, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved."
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#2 Jul 10, 2013
How about it coc members? Any thoughts?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#3 Jul 10, 2013
The only thing that matters is the promise of God and that God will be true to His promise and cannot lie.

The message of Peter was just days after Jesus gave the great commission about madding disciples, immersing them into the Name (FSH) and Peter concludes his sermon with the promise, which is also a command. Those who believe are to repent and be immersed into His name. Repentance is to go and do what God said to do that you hadn't done before or failed to do, or went around and didn't do it. If God said to repent and be immersed for the forgiveness of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit, how could one have repented to do what God said to do if they were not immersed for the reason He promised? It is the culmination of the promise to Abraham by which all the nations will be blessed - so many as believe and repent to do His will.

Because of this, actual repentance has not taken place until one is immersed into His name.

Second to this is the often overlooked verses of Acts 3:22,23, which says we need to abide in learning and doing whatever He taught - not just being baptized, and not just John 3:16. Jesus said if we love Him we will keep His commandments, as He loves the Father and keeps His commandments. Moses and Peter agree - whoever doesn't do whatever He said will be cut off from the brethren....

But do we really believe them?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#4 Jul 10, 2013
dang typos - making disciples, not madding disciples:-)
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#5 Jul 10, 2013
But then, I consider myself a 'fringe Church of Chirster', and have just about studied myself out of their Church and am about to join the Messianic Synagogue - they study the Torah and teachings of Y'shua and worship on the Sabbath.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#6 Jul 10, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
But then, I consider myself a 'fringe Church of Chirster', and have just about studied myself out of their Church and am about to join the Messianic Synagogue - they study the Torah and teachings of Y'shua and worship on the Sabbath.
Have you been visiting a Messianic Synagogue? I do know that they do not all teach exactly the same things. The only ones I have experience with consider water baptism to be an ordnance and not a sacrament/salvific. I might feel comfortable in some of them but I think their ministry is basically Jewish...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#7 Jul 10, 2013
The Rabbi is a Gentile:-) They teach immersion per the promise of God as Peter preached.

You can study their web site and hear some sermons from Michael on line and see what you think. So far I'm pretty impressed and have learned a few new things.

Do a google search for Star in the East, Canton, OH
X-CofC

Martinsville, VA

#8 Jul 11, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
If God said to repent and be immersed for the forgiveness of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit, how could one have repented to do what God said to do if they were not immersed for the reason He promised? It is the culmination of the promise to Abraham by which all the nations will be blessed - so many as believe and repent to do His will. Because of this, actual repentance has not taken place until one is immersed into His name.
Therefore you teach that in ones mind he must know that which he does is to be forgiven? If he fails to be immersed to be forgiven he is not baptized into his name?
Mike Peterson

United States

#9 Jul 11, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
But then, I consider myself a 'fringe Church of Chirster', and have just about studied myself out of their Church and am about to join the Messianic Synagogue - they study the Torah and teachings of Y'shua and worship on the Sabbath.
Keep studying , put your swimming trunks on , and swim the Tiber.

Jesus is waiting.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#10 Jul 11, 2013
X-CofC wrote:
<quoted text>
Therefore you teach that in ones mind he must know that which he does is to be forgiven? If he fails to be immersed to be forgiven he is not baptized into his name?
What Peter said is the current promise of God to all men is the same today as it was the day he gave it almost 2000 years ago.

As I said to start with - what matters is what God said about it.
'The sum of Thy word is truth.'
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#11 Jul 11, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Keep studying , put your swimming trunks on , and swim the Tiber.
Jesus is waiting.
What's the 'Tiber'?
X-CofC

Martinsville, VA

#12 Jul 11, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
What Peter said is the current promise of God to all men is the same today as it was the day he gave it almost 2000 years ago.
As I said to start with - what matters is what God said about it.
'The sum of Thy word is truth.'
I don’t care for rabbit meat nor enjoy chasing them. Answer me directly. Must the unsaved know immersion is to be forgiven? If he fails to be immersed to be forgiven he is not baptized into his name? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#13 Jul 11, 2013
X-CofC wrote:
In many Church of Christ circles today is a generally held opinion that unless a person has been specifically baptized for the remission of sins, understanding that such is the purpose for baptism and that one is not saved until he is baptized, his baptism is invalid.
In other words, to be baptized out of a desire to follow our Lord's example is not sufficient. To be baptized out of a desire to please the Lord is not good enough. And not even to be baptized out of a desire to obey one of our Lord's commands (as set forth in Scripture) is sufficient. Rather, one must understand a particular thing about baptism: That it is for the remission of sins, and that a person is lost until he is baptized. If this is not clearly understood, then a person is lost, even if he was baptized out of a desire to obey the Lord's command to be baptized … according to the Church of Christ.
It is one thing to say that the purpose of baptism is "for the remission of ins" ("so that your sins may be forgiven"), but quite another thing to say that "for the remission of sins" is part of a baptismal formula which must be said over the one being baptized. And, it is quite another thing to say that the purpose of baptism must be understood in its full significance by the one being baptized (that is, that the person being baptized understands that he is not saved until he is baptized). That the purpose of baptism is "for the remission of sins," rests upon an express statement of Scripture. That "for the remission of sins" is part of a baptismal formula that must be repeated over the one being baptized, has no express statement of Scripture to rest upon, and thus is, at best, only a speculation or opinion of man. The same is true with regard to the claim that the one being baptized must understand that he is not saved until he is baptized. There is no express statement of Scripture which indicates such, and thus it is only a speculation or opinion of man.
Anyone who is baptized out of a desire to obey the divine command to be baptized, regardless of the particular denominational environment that it may have occurred in; and regardless of his understanding as to what point salvation comes in relation to the act of baptism is my brother in Christ Jesus. After all, in an express statement of Scripture, we have a record of where our Lord himself, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved."
couple of quick comments. If understanding the purpose of baptism is not an issue then baptism of all infants would suffice for them. Second the Baptist faith of which my wife was devote in does not baptize except to place one in that group and moving from group to group requires a letter. Also the Baptist require a re-baptism if one were baptized for remission of sins.
X-CofC

Martinsville, VA

#14 Jul 11, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
couple of quick comments. If understanding the purpose of baptism is not an issue then baptism of all infants would suffice for them. Second the Baptist faith of which my wife was devote in does not baptize except to place one in that group and moving from group to group requires a letter. Also the Baptist require a re-baptism if one were baptized for remission of sins.
You’re tossing up oranges and apples. Do babies have faith? Certainly not as they are too young to understand. Do tell what the unsaved should know about baptism to make their baptism good in the eyes of God? Clothed in Christ? Added to the Church? Raised a new creation? Granted the gift of the Spirit? If the unsaved be immersed per the example of Mark 16:16 I would say he is saved. Jesus said so after all. You should be mindful and careful not to lean upon your understanding as such is inadequate. Your words betray those of Jesus Christ who said those who believe and are baptized will be saved.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#15 Jul 11, 2013
X-CofC wrote:
<quoted text>
You’re tossing up oranges and apples. Do babies have faith? Certainly not as they are too young to understand. Do tell what the unsaved should know about baptism to make their baptism good in the eyes of God? Clothed in Christ? Added to the Church? Raised a new creation? Granted the gift of the Spirit? If the unsaved be immersed per the example of Mark 16:16 I would say he is saved. Jesus said so after all. You should be mindful and careful not to lean upon your understanding as such is inadequate. Your words betray those of Jesus Christ who said those who believe and are baptized will be saved.
Did you really want comments, or just your platform here?
X-CofC

Martinsville, VA

#16 Jul 11, 2013
You can have the platform sir. I addressed in depth my concerns to which you failed to adequately provide an answer. Bringing up babies who do not have the ability to believe and comparing them to an adult capable of believing is apples and oranges. You’re position fails you because it requires the unsaved to know the truths of baptism before God will forgive them. Jesus said belief and be baptism will make one saved. Did Jesus lie?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#17 Jul 11, 2013
X-CofC wrote:
You can have the platform sir. I addressed in depth my concerns to which you failed to adequately provide an answer. Bringing up babies who do not have the ability to believe and comparing them to an adult capable of believing is apples and oranges. You’re position fails you because it requires the unsaved to know the truths of baptism before God will forgive them. Jesus said belief and be baptism will make one saved. Did Jesus lie?
YOu dont know my position and think it best you not get any responses. Have a good day.
X-CofC

Martinsville, VA

#18 Jul 11, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
YOu dont know my position and think it best you not get any responses. Have a good day.
You obviously have a split personality then. Your first comment is abundantly clear as to your position.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#19 Jul 11, 2013
X-CofC wrote:
<quoted text>
You obviously have a split personality then. Your first comment is abundantly clear as to your position.
Have a good day.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#20 Jul 11, 2013
Understanding the purpose of baptism. Is it:

A- specifically FOR remission of sins and the Spirit;
B- for being guilty of crucifying Christ.

I contend B. The crowd at Pentecost asked "what shall we do"? They had crucified Christ, were guilty and convicted, and asked what shall we do?

Peter's response- 2 commands, 2 promises. Commands- repent and be baptized. 2 promises- remission of sins, gift of the Spirit.

"For" is eis in the Greek- into or unto remission. Not "for" as in purpose. That Greek word is gar. They were to repent and be baptized for killing Christ, because of their sins. Forgiveness and the Spirit are the results. As Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

The crowd at Pentecost wasn't baptized for a theological discussion; nor did they have Romans 6 or 1 Peter 3 to go on.

Perhaps we can be baptized FOR remission of sins and still get it wrong. Perhaps conviction of sin, and asking what to do, is the answer. Forgiveness and the Spirit are results, not purposes.

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