New Guy

Morehead, KY

#102 Apr 23, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am troubled by those who say we should believe in the inerrantcy of the scripture and then can't agree on what is true scripture. Barnsweb uses Jewish sources, others use king James only-you get the idea. How do we know which writings to trust? Frankly I will continue to trust the 66 books in the bible, knowing that some translations are better than others.
We agree Bobby. I have my preferences about translations. I prefer the New King James, but I preach out of the KJV because most are familiar. The New American Standard is ok, and the NIV is trash, but this is just an opinion.

I believe wholeheartedly and without a doubt that the 66 books in most of our translations are what God intended for us to have. Thats why I reference the lampstand in the tabernacle so much. One solid piece of gold, with 66 different ornaments on it. The lamp represents the word of God. 66 different books, but one complete unit. I don't believe this is an accident. And, it removes the mystery of what is scripture and what isn't.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#103 Apr 23, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am troubled by those who say we should believe in the inerrantcy of the scripture and then can't agree on what is true scripture. Barnsweb uses Jewish sources, others use king James only-you get the idea. How do we know which writings to trust? Frankly I will continue to trust the 66 books in the bible, knowing that some translations are better than others.
My dad, and many CoC preachers, put a lot of weight on the Greek translations, and I used to believe this was the best resource to base translations on. Over the years I've come to see there is enough value to double check the 'original' text language for information comparison, which lead to noting differences.

Suppose we have any differences in the truth from one base language to another?

Suppose we have any differences in what is presented as Jewish thought on the Torah or the traditions associated with the Torah and Law that are indistinguishable in the Greek, but made more clear from Aramaic or Hebrew?

So I suppose that's why the inquiring mind wants to know;-)

To date I have not changed my web site from the NKJV to the AENT. Perhaps some day, but I need to find more justification of changes to toss the Greek based translations out, but do find valuable info from the AENT and study with a Rabbi to get a better perspective of what they actually believe VS what someone who has never studied with them say they believe or teach.

I don't think it's an error to hear people out and see if there is anything they might add to what I know. And the Spirit and the Word will both testify to what is true.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#104 Apr 24, 2013
My first 20 years of experience with the bible was KJV, today I still often quote from it because I had a lot of it memorized in that language. Who talks that way in the modern world? The last three coc's I have visited all use the niv from the pulpit these days.

I have noticed that one of the reason most of us like a particular translation is because it appears to better support our own doctrine- the things we value most, that is why I like the niv and some of you consider it trash. I find the aent distasteful...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#105 Apr 24, 2013
Because I believe that we are saved by grace and not by law, that is the mindset I read the bible with...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#106 Apr 24, 2013
I'd hate to investigate each and every English version, but we know that a copyright is not given unless there is substantive changes to the text wording of another version. On the opposite side of this - word for word translation of the Aramaic would be nearly impossible to understand due to the way they relayed some thoughts back then that we are not familiar with today.

I believe we are saved by the way Jesus said we are to be saved. Rather than view it as 'by grace and not by law', I see it as 'by grace, according to the truth,' the truth being defined as the word of God, which includes the promises of God.

Torah must have something to do with it if Jeremiah said God would write Torah on our hearts in the covenant established by Jesus Christ.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#107 Apr 24, 2013
One thing I don't do is hang on every word of any preacher to tell me what is true or what to do or not do. God gave His word so we can see who tells it according to what He said and not add in crazy stuff like 'if it isn't authorized in the NT it is prohibited':-); and I also cannot accept anyone who tells me that hearing and doing what Jesus said is only for Heaven and not for today on earth.

Both viewpoints are horribly wrong if Jesus spoke the truth.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#108 Apr 24, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
I'd hate to investigate each and every English version, but we know that a copyright is not given unless there is substantive changes to the text wording of another version. On the opposite side of this - word for word translation of the Aramaic would be nearly impossible to understand due to the way they relayed some thoughts back then that we are not familiar with today.
I believe we are saved by the way Jesus said we are to be saved. Rather than view it as 'by grace and not by law', I see it as 'by grace, according to the truth,' the truth being defined as the word of God, which includes the promises of God.
Torah must have something to do with it if Jeremiah said God would write Torah on our hearts in the covenant established by Jesus Christ.
Would you be saying say that Jesus is the living Torah therefore Torah is eternal?

If so, you could make the case that we are saved by law...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#109 Apr 24, 2013
'That which has been from the beginning', as well as 'those who have been born from the beginning' are the way the AENT phrased some things, such as those who are 'born again' was originally 'those who have been born from the beginning'.

God is light, and in Him is no darkness. The first thing He said at creation was 'Let there be light.' Some view this quite literally, and with good reason and scriptural support - but that's a very deep doctrine I don't think we're ready for on Topix:-)

If Jesus is the Word manifest, and we are saved by Him who fulfilled that which was written of Him... what could that say? Or that He is our Sabbath?

The whole Bible is about Him on every page - that's what I think.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#110 Apr 24, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
'That which has been from the beginning', as well as 'those who have been born from the beginning' are the way the AENT phrased some things, such as those who are 'born again' was originally 'those who have been born from the beginning'.
God is light, and in Him is no darkness. The first thing He said at creation was 'Let there be light.' Some view this quite literally, and with good reason and scriptural support - but that's a very deep doctrine I don't think we're ready for on Topix:-)
If Jesus is the Word manifest, and we are saved by Him who fulfilled that which was written of Him... what could that say? Or that He is our Sabbath?
The whole Bible is about Him on every page - that's what I think.
You are getting better at the way you phrase your words. We are indeed saved by him who fulfilled the law and Jesus is indeed our sabbath-rest, he finished his work upon the cross-just as God rested from his work of creation.

The word sabat, means “to rest or stop or cease from work. When God rested on the seventh day simply that He stopped what He was doing. He ceased from His labors.

The principle is rest=stop. The sabbath symbolized the coming of the Messiah, who would provide a permanent rest for His people. The Jews were constantly “laboring/working” to make themselves acceptable to God.

God provided an array of sin offerings and sacrifices so they could come to Him for forgiveness and restore fellowship with Him, but only temporarily.

Heb 10 says Just as He rested after performing the ultimate sacrifice, He sat down and rested—ceased from His labor of atonement because there was nothing more to be done, ever. Because of what He did, we no longer have to “labor” in law-keeping in order to be justified in the sight of God.

Jesus was sent so that we might rest in God and in what He has provided.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#111 Apr 24, 2013
"It is finished", what is 'it'? He still has to return and fulfill those things, doesn't He?

And disciples 'works' must matter, as He keeps mentioning them in His epistles to the seven Churches of Asia in Revelation.

So based on His and the other apostles teachings, we have a certain type of rest in Jesus, but we still have things to do. The way I read Hebrews is that there remaineth the rest yet to come - where we can personally meet faithful Abraham!
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#112 Apr 24, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
"It is finished", what is 'it'? He still has to return and fulfill those things, doesn't He?
And disciples 'works' must matter, as He keeps mentioning them in His epistles to the seven Churches of Asia in Revelation.
So based on His and the other apostles teachings, we have a certain type of rest in Jesus, but we still have things to do. The way I read Hebrews is that there remaineth the rest yet to come - where we can personally meet faithful Abraham!
I absolutely cannot understand why you are fighting so hard against this. Everything necessary to secure your salvation has already been paid for. Jesus will not return to the cross ever again! Why can't you just accept it and praise the Lord?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#113 Apr 24, 2013
His work IS done on earth to secure the pathway and make it well lit and seen. The matter is that each of us has to walk that pathway He illuminated and showed us how to walk it faithfully.

Are we to walk as He walked? What did John say in his epistle?

And if works don't matter if we've 'been saved', why the admonitions from the Lord in the epistles to the seven Churches.

Would you please address these two questions? Can you give a ready reply? or a studied reply? or one thought out to reconcile why we are saved without doing what He said? You've got my mystified as to your stance in light of His word....

Thanks!
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#114 Apr 24, 2013
And you can add to the two questions above the question just above it - What is the 'it' Jesus was refering to when He said 'It is finished'?

:-)

I do so love our converstations - two old guys egging each other on to appreciate Jesus more:-)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#115 Apr 24, 2013
Tetelestai is an accounting term that means “paid in full. When Jesus said those words, He was declaring that the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped away any debt that He owed to the Father rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed by mankind—the debt of sin.

John 17:4 Jesus said to the father:I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus paid a debt he did not owe for those of us who have a debt we cannot pay.

Obviously we can reject Jesus by denying that we never knew him. Paul says it best though.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Those of us who have accepted the Gospel are then given responsibility to walk in the light of Jesus so that others might see his light and be drawn to the cross. We become co-laborers with Christ to reach the others that do not know him. The great commission comes to my mind.

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#116 Apr 24, 2013
So I just add that we do as He said and be hearers and doers of His word because He said so, and I'm branded a 'legalist'?:-)

One of the greatest signs of the Mazzaroth is Libra, which is about the very topic of the debt paid. It's really wonderful that even in the heavenly sign for this aspect of the gospel that the price paid doesn't just tip the scales as more than the other weight (debt owed for sin), but it is overwhelmingly paid as the scales are totally one sided - far more than owed.
Mike Peterson

United States

#117 Apr 24, 2013
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
I am neither, I am a follower of the way! And the Catholic Church teaches error and it is clearly in contrast with the Bible. While Peter tells Cornelius not to bow and worship him that he is just another man, the CC teaches people to pray to Mary mother of Jesus as though she is some demigoddess. Praying to anyone but God is creating an idol and it is contrary to the teachings in the Bible.
<quoted text>
Working out salvation is a daily baptismal journey, death to self is required daily. Joining any denominational church isn't a requirement.
I find it interesting reading that many defend the addition of those books because of the Septuagint, but don't seem to realize that the original story of the creation of the Septuagint is fabrication and the current one was written by the Catholic Church.
It is interesting to note that the Jews fell away from the translation when it was discovered that it had errors in it compared to the original Hebrew text.
And secondly those quotes in the New Testament that line up with the Septuagint isn't because Jesus used it, it is because the translators who translated had it to use.
So the entire set of books along with the LXX should be considered suspect at best.
The Jews fell away from it because it was being read in the Catholic Churches. Why did it take them until the end of the first century to find errors.

I agree about denominations. That was invented in the 1500s.

How do you get around the fact that Jesus started a Church and with the Keys to the Kingdom given to Peter? He also he would protect this Church until the end of ages.

But I know, the HS has spoken to you personally and have given you the gift of the interpretation of Bible. You and another hundreds of millions of people. But wait, who did the HS really give the truth too, because so many say different things.

I guess I may have to go with you instead of the Apostles. Not.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#118 Apr 25, 2013
Well, there is good evidence that Y'shua quoted the Jewish Scriptures, and not the Greek translation. Second is evidence that Paul quoted the gospel of Matthew.

Why scholarship of the past relies so heavily on the Greek just shows they don't have a keen interest to stay with the original as they should have. Although not as close to the original as the AENT, there reportedly was an English translation about 1905 of Aramaic texts. Wo given the number of significant changes from the Greek texts - why such wide acceptance?

The 'scribes' of Jesus' day were faulted as the Pharisees - Pharisees were saying Scriptures said things they didn't and the scribes didn't correct them, but enjoyed the perks of supporting them.

Has anything changed?;-)
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#119 Apr 25, 2013
Anyone getting email from Nelson or Lucado?

So we've had:

Grace alone.

Faith alone.

now?

Belief alone?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#120 Apr 25, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Anyone getting email from Nelson or Lucado?
So we've had:
Grace alone.
Faith alone.
now?
Belief alone?
Don't know who Nelson is and I doubt Lucado (max) would have the time to send out emails.

I think belief and faith is the same thing.

As to your earlier question about being branded as a legalist, I think legalism takes on many forms. For example some here believe using instruments in worship is a sin. That is legalism but not a salvation issue.

Most of us have issues with certain areas of law keeping especially OT laws that we adhere to. There again that can be legalism, particularly when being bound to other Christians as a condition of salvation-thinking of the sabbath.

I don't don't know exactly where to draw the line. I think homosexuality is a sin, I tend to bind that as a salvation issue but in reality it is a sin issue and God will forgive sin. I know this opens the door for criticism on my part drawing the discussion back to one unforgiven sin will send a person to hell and that eternal security is a lie. However God said through Paul "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". I suspect that all of grieve the Spirit from time to time.

See how circular our discussions are?

One of my friends in church is an alcoholic, he has been aa and has seriously tried to overcome it-he has gone for years without a drink only to start back up. Recently he has hit his wife and she finally filed for divorce. His wife still comes to our meetings and he has stopped coming to church. This has been going on for many years-I think he is in his mid 50's.

Another man came to us about three years ago with the same issue. Today he is still clean and is an outstanding believer. I have never used alcohol and have no idea what that is like to become addicted.

I am thinking about Rahab, wondering if she continued/struggled with prostitution. I believe all of us have skeletons in our closet and should be quick to forgive and careful not to condemn. I believe the church should be a hospital for the sick and wounded among us, as we are all in a constant battle with sin. How do we overcome?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#121 Apr 25, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>

I am thinking about Rahab, wondering if she continued/struggled with prostitution. I believe all of us have skeletons in our closet and should be quick to forgive and careful not to condemn. I believe the church should be a hospital for the sick and wounded among us, as we are all in a constant battle with sin. How do we overcome?
What advise would you have given to Rahab?

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