Eternal Security: Once Saved Always Saved

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Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#82
Apr 18, 2013
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
My thoughts are simple baring the tongues of fire that happened at Pentecost, we go though a process of refinement through the Holy Spirit and through his sword called the Bible. As we mature we become more and more refined like gold through a refining fire so that we emerge pure in the site of God. The last stage will be the incorruptible body we receive at the judgement when the dead are raised. At that time we will know as God knows us, fully and completely.
I agree...
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#83
Apr 18, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is the complete text of which you speak.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them,ďYou brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,ĎWe have Abraham for our fatherí; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 ďAs for me, I baptize you [g]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you [h]with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Ē
To whom is John speaking mostly here? Like your thoughts on this WIL
So if I take a chapter that is mostly based on talking about those saved and it has a part in it about hell can I configure that to mean the saved are hell bound? John IS allowed to change subjects.

1 Co 3:12 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver,[d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each manís work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each manís work. 14 If any manís work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any manís work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The above uses the same Greek word puri who's root is pur since I am not a scholar of the ancient Greek but it is clearly used here as a reference to removing the things that are unworthy of God that we have done.

And I realize the passages that talk about chaff being the unrighteous people of the world, I am simply stating that in this case it MAY be the unrighteous parts of us that have to be separated so that we are purified.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#84
Apr 18, 2013
 
http://classic.net.bible.org/search.php...

Are all the references to puri. So since puri was used in a reference to removing our works that need to be burned up, it can be that this is how it is being used in that passage.

Since: May 10

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#85
Apr 18, 2013
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
So if I take a chapter that is mostly based on talking about those saved and it has a part in it about hell can I configure that to mean the saved are hell bound? John IS allowed to change subjects.
1 Co 3:12 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver,[d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each manís work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each manís work. 14 If any manís work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any manís work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
The above uses the same Greek word puri who's root is pur since I am not a scholar of the ancient Greek but it is clearly used here as a reference to removing the things that are unworthy of God that we have done.
And I realize the passages that talk about chaff being the unrighteous people of the world, I am simply stating that in this case it MAY be the unrighteous parts of us that have to be separated so that we are purified.
Wow great how did you miss verse 7. Dont let me confuse you with the fact of the text.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, HE SAID TO THEM,ďYou brood of vipers
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#86
Apr 18, 2013
 
There is no doubt that fire can be either purification or judgement. According to context in John's sermon, I would have to say that the baptism of fire is judgment there. I believe Jesus was speaking of two different baptisms, one of the Holy Spirit and one of fire. I think context shows us the fire baptism is judgment, and in Acts 1 Jesus quotes John and says to the apostles that they will be baptized by the Spirit not many days from now. No mention of the fire baptism from Jesus there.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#87
Apr 18, 2013
 
John was speaking of two different baptisms, not Jesus. These smart phones can be so dumb.
nobody

Morehead, KY

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#88
Apr 18, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
There is no doubt that fire can be either purification or judgement. According to context in John's sermon, I would have to say that the baptism of fire is judgment there. I believe John was speaking of two different baptisms, one of the Holy Spirit and one of fire. I think context shows us the fire baptism is judgment, and in Acts 1 Jesus quotes John and says to the apostles that they will be baptized by the Spirit not many days from now. No mention of the fire baptism from Jesus there.
I corrected the mistake by the dummy phone above. I don't believe it is two baptisms but only one John is talking about. If it is two it would be like saying "I will baptize you with heaven and with hell. The only way one baptism of blessing and one of judgement could be used by John here that would even come close to making any sense is the earth being destroyed by fire on the last day. The destruction of the earth by water and coming destruction by fire I have heard paralleling baptism of the earth. It is a case in both instances where water and fire were used as judgement and as purifying agents at the same time. It makes much more sense to be one baptism spoken of and fire being the purifying action of the Holy Ghost ongoing in our lives after the second birth. Context is a word thrown around usually because what someone says is is contradicted in scripture. Explain this context in detail if you don't mind. I see no such context.

Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#89
Apr 18, 2013
 
No problem nobody. My phone ain't just dumb its downright stupid.

In verses 10, 11-12 in Matthew John says that every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. He then mentions baptism with the Spirit and fire. He then says the chaff will be burned up with unquenchable fire.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#90
Apr 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
There is no doubt that fire can be either purification or judgement. According to context in John's sermon, I would have to say that the baptism of fire is judgment there. I believe Jesus was speaking of two different baptisms, one of the Holy Spirit and one of fire. I think context shows us the fire baptism is judgment, and in Acts 1 Jesus quotes John and says to the apostles that they will be baptized by the Spirit not many days from now. No mention of the fire baptism from Jesus there.
There should be some break in the sentence to indicate a different group is being spoken to again read the text in KJV ;)...

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
baptize you with and at the end, and with fire. There is nothing that indicates the you in the baptize you has chanced to a different you.

Thus it has to be purification and not hell.
nobody

Morehead, KY

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#91
Apr 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
No problem nobody. My phone ain't just dumb its downright stupid.
In verses 10, 11-12 in Matthew John says that every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. He then mentions baptism with the Spirit and fire. He then says the chaff will be burned up with unquenchable fire.
I am trying to figure out your understanding of two baptisms and exactly what they are. If I am missing your thoughts than point it out.
1. The chaff is not the church but the unsaved.
2. Verse 12 is separated into two parts and is speaking of the future end time. The first part of the verse is speaking of the church in the end time. The unsaved(but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire)in the last part of the verse. I am taking it that you are calling this a baptism of fire. It is judgement but is not called a baptism.
3. You seem to be taking fire out of verse 11 and making a second baptism with verse 12. I believe the baptism is in eleven only and John is only continuing his exhortation. The Luke accounts are about the same but indicates a continuing sermon.

Luke 3:
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

4. If there is a baptism of the Holy Ghost and then a separate baptism of fire when the Lord returns then we definitely have a gospel of works. Those who were baptized with the Holy Ghost and did not bear fruits and then get the Baptism of fire would be in constant need of preachers telling them to bear fruit and save themselves every sermon, every Sunday. I think part two of verse 12 is the unsaved myself.
Psalm:1
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

I am at lunch now but will leave you with this to think about. Is this the part of the sermon John is preaching? The tree,fruit,chaff,judgement,etc .
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
If nothing else this song according to the bible, says those of us on here may be blessed when we are discussing and thinking of the word, even though we probably rarely consider that. I hope I am not stretching that verse to far with my interpretation but if the bible says we are blessed then we surely are. Have a blessed day. I hope this doesn't post a dozen times. I had a lot of trouble with it.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#92
Apr 19, 2013
 
Not much time either nobody, getting ready for work myself. I'll go over your post, think and read on it, and get back to you later tonight about it. Have a blessed day yourself as well. :)
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#93
Apr 19, 2013
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
My thoughts are simple baring the tongues of fire that happened at Pentecost, we go though a process of refinement through the Holy Spirit and through his sword called the Bible. As we mature we become more and more refined like gold through a refining fire so that we emerge pure in the site of God. The last stage will be the incorruptible body we receive at the judgement when the dead are raised. At that time we will know as God knows us, fully and completely.
We are all impure when we die. We are then judged for heaven or hell. Once judged for heaven we are purified as through fire to make "clean" for heaven. This purification process is called Purgatory. Nobody knows how long this will take. It could be a twinkling of an eye. We cannot know how 'time' is in heaven.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#94
Apr 19, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
We are all impure when we die. We are then judged for heaven or hell. Once judged for heaven we are purified as through fire to make "clean" for heaven. This purification process is called Purgatory. Nobody knows how long this will take. It could be a twinkling of an eye. We cannot know how 'time' is in heaven.
I guess I'll have to put Catholic Doctrine next on my list of things to review and test against the word. I will say that the system where I send money to nuns to pray my loved ones out of purgatory is very very suspect. Also accept for a place in Maccabees a book added later there seems to be no reference to the place I can find, is it by chance called something different?

Also between John 2:9's call to confess my sins as they occur and the ONE baptism that remits my sins, if I am faithfully calling on God with a repentant heart when I fail to hold to his words, how am I unclean, since I am clothed in Christ through the one baptism, and thus seen by God as sinless?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#95
Apr 19, 2013
 
This is for nobody:

First, I dig those psalms being set to guitar and singing. Really neat, have to find more of those. And I don't think you are stretching the verses when you say we are blessed for having the word on our minds and talking about it. We could be thinking and talking of useless stuff like much of the world. Nothing I'd rather be doing anyway. I also think John could very well have had this psalm in mind when preaching the sermon.

I think your first three points are dead on what I think. He mentions the baptism of the Spirit and fire, then verse 12 when you describe the end times idea. Yes I do put the baptism of fire in the second part of verse 12. In Luke 3, Johns sermon does continue. Both places he warns the religious leaders who warned you to flee the wrath to come? Then later he states the baptism part.

I also see the second part of Matthew 3:12 to be the unsaved. I think we can tie in Matthew 13 and the parable of the wheat and rates too. You are right about what I believe the best I can tell. You might not agree, but that's ok. Fire is also certainly used as a refining substance too. I think the baptism of the Spirit is the bigger issue in John's sermon.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#96
Apr 19, 2013
 
Wheat and tares, not rates. Spell check strikes again.
Mike Peterson

United States

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#97
Apr 23, 2013
 
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess I'll have to put Catholic Doctrine next on my list of things to review and test against the word. I will say that the system where I send money to nuns to pray my loved ones out of purgatory is very very suspect. Also accept for a place in Maccabees a book added later there seems to be no reference to the place I can find, is it by chance called something different?
Also between John 2:9's call to confess my sins as they occur and the ONE baptism that remits my sins, if I am faithfully calling on God with a repentant heart when I fail to hold to his words, how am I unclean, since I am clothed in Christ through the one baptism, and thus seen by God as sinless?
Be careful. If you read what the CC really teaches and compare those teachings to the what the 1st Christians wrote and how they worshiped you might end up like me, Catholic. I tried not to be but to read history is to cease being Protestant.

You need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling like Paul. He was never sure, but he was baptized and he confessed his sins, so he could not find any reason to keep him from heaven.

Why do you think the inspired and inerrant words of God like Maccabees and 6 other books were thrown in the Garbage by Father Luther who broke his solemn vows he made with God

Since: May 10

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#98
Apr 23, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Be careful. If you read what the CC really teaches and compare those teachings to the what the 1st Christians wrote and how they worshiped you might end up like me, Catholic. I tried not to be but to read history is to cease being Protestant.
You need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling like Paul. He was never sure, but he was baptized and he confessed his sins, so he could not find any reason to keep him from heaven.
Why do you think the inspired and inerrant words of God like Maccabees and 6 other books were thrown in the Garbage by Father Luther who broke his solemn vows he made with God
Please reference where you found Paul claim he was not sure of the salvation of himself or others in Christ. I claim you made a false unsupported statement.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#99
Apr 23, 2013
 
Also the idea about Maccabees and other books being inspired and innerant. I disagree.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#100
Apr 23, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Also the idea about Maccabees and other books being inspired and innerant. I disagree.
I am troubled by those who say we should believe in the inerrantcy of the scripture and then can't agree on what is true scripture. Barnsweb uses Jewish sources, others use king James only-you get the idea. How do we know which writings to trust? Frankly I will continue to trust the 66 books in the bible, knowing that some translations are better than others.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

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#101
Apr 23, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Be careful. If you read what the CC really teaches and compare those teachings to the what the 1st Christians wrote and how they worshiped you might end up like me, Catholic. I tried not to be but to read history is to cease being Protestant.
I am neither, I am a follower of the way! And the Catholic Church teaches error and it is clearly in contrast with the Bible. While Peter tells Cornelius not to bow and worship him that he is just another man, the CC teaches people to pray to Mary mother of Jesus as though she is some demigoddess. Praying to anyone but God is creating an idol and it is contrary to the teachings in the Bible.
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling like Paul. He was never sure, but he was baptized and he confessed his sins, so he could not find any reason to keep him from heaven.
Why do you think the inspired and inerrant words of God like Maccabees and 6 other books were thrown in the Garbage by Father Luther who broke his solemn vows he made with God
Working out salvation is a daily baptismal journey, death to self is required daily. Joining any denominational church isn't a requirement.

I find it interesting reading that many defend the addition of those books because of the Septuagint, but don't seem to realize that the original story of the creation of the Septuagint is fabrication and the current one was written by the Catholic Church.

It is interesting to note that the Jews fell away from the translation when it was discovered that it had errors in it compared to the original Hebrew text.

And secondly those quotes in the New Testament that line up with the Septuagint isn't because Jesus used it, it is because the translators who translated had it to use.

So the entire set of books along with the LXX should be considered suspect at best.

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