Eternal Security: Once Saved Always S...
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#62 Apr 17, 2013
Thanks to WIL and Barnsweb for sharing their messages. I do consider myself blessed for the relationship I have with my dad now. Most of the brethren who know us don't believe what kind of person my dad used to be. They can't imagine him being different than what they see. Only God can change us in such a manner.

You two bring tears to my eyes thinking of the different and difficult things you have went through. Bless you both.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#63 Apr 17, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Either the Holy Ghost baptism had a fire with it or that is not what he was talking about there. Clarify what he meant in that test in your mind.
I went down this road with nobody a few months ago. I argued that continuing revelation shows us in Acts 1 that Jesus mentioned what John preached, and applied the baptized in the Spirit to the apostles at Pentecost. I believe the baptism of fire to be judgment according to the context in those passages. Nobody disagrees with me, and thinks the coc abuse the passage to eliminate the Spirit. I would appreciate your thoughts, perhaps you see things a little differently also.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#64 Apr 17, 2013
I've never seen a thriving CoC that denied the Spirit. You can tell fairly quickly which congregations are on the right track and the ones that are spiritually dead. Discernment is needful for those inbetween:-)

No matter what any of us go through, it only shows the truth that all things work for the good for those that love the Lord. It may not seem so at any particular moment during the times of trial, but the beauty and hope in that verse really shines for all of us who have been blessed by Him.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#65 Apr 17, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
My dad was the preacher since I was about 4, but a more imbalanced man between the message he preached and the way he treated his family may never be known. Hardly ever at home, quite the liar when it came to being confronted with treatment of his family, always at the office studying and beating everyone at home to make sure he got the right one - damned if you did and damned if you didn't. Whipped me once with the buckle end of the belt from neck to foot for 'making him 45 minutes late to the preachers meeting.'
I tried to talk to him some years ago on my treatment, as well of my siblings and mother - his reply was no acknowlegement at all, but a simple 'No one has a perfect father.' Not a single hint of accepting his sins or hurt to others - not a single twinge of guilt or remorse.
So as I see him today, failing in mind and body - but still preaching to others - it's just sort of empty to feel any anger - pity is more the word that comes to mind.
What is so disapointing to me is to realize how dishonest he really is and has been all his life - but he belongs to the 'correct Church'.
God help his soul. He's delusional to this very day.
I'm sorry for your pain Barnsweb, clearly this shows why God calls the problem in us a log and in others something much smaller.

Pray for him, forgive him if for no other reason then to honor the one who bought you and to free you from the bonds of the pain! And hope that God will open his eyes to his true nature. It will all be exposed in the day of Judgement.

And most of all honor the position he occupies even if you can't honor the man for what he is. The position is from God's authority.

My mother whom my father left when I was 1, was mentally unstable, even to the point of attempting suicide several times. And when off her medication she heard voices and abused alcohol, her second husband (yes Johnny I know what you believe) also abused alcohol and they both physically fought each other. I vowed at one time to kill him if I ever saw him again, I have since repented and forgave them both, mercy calls me to do so, for I was just as abusive to God and yet he still willing to forgive me for my sins. How could I do less for them?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#66 Apr 17, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
I went down this road with nobody a few months ago. I argued that continuing revelation shows us in Acts 1 that Jesus mentioned what John preached, and applied the baptized in the Spirit to the apostles at Pentecost. I believe the baptism of fire to be judgment according to the context in those passages. Nobody disagrees with me, and thinks the coc abuse the passage to eliminate the Spirit. I would appreciate your thoughts, perhaps you see things a little differently also.
As I have heard fire is always judgemental so If Christ brings a baptism of fire that can not mean indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe on Pentecost this was clear to those there. To those today it may not be so clear. I do know that Christ commission did not list this as the way of conversion, and the way the message proceeded it was not given that way either.
King James

Lexington, KY

#67 Apr 17, 2013
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
Does your wife/mom know you talk about them like this on the web? ;)
I never talk like that in their presence, do you think I am crazy or something?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#68 Apr 17, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
My dad was the preacher since I was about 4, but a more imbalanced man between the message he preached and the way he treated his family may never be known. Hardly ever at home, quite the liar when it came to being confronted with treatment of his family, always at the office studying and beating everyone at home to make sure he got the right one - damned if you did and damned if you didn't. Whipped me once with the buckle end of the belt from neck to foot for 'making him 45 minutes late to the preachers meeting.'
I tried to talk to him some years ago on my treatment, as well of my siblings and mother - his reply was no acknowlegement at all, but a simple 'No one has a perfect father.' Not a single hint of accepting his sins or hurt to others - not a single twinge of guilt or remorse.
So as I see him today, failing in mind and body - but still preaching to others - it's just sort of empty to feel any anger - pity is more the word that comes to mind.
What is so disapointing to me is to realize how dishonest he really is and has been all his life - but he belongs to the 'correct Church'.
God help his soul. He's delusional to this very day.
I feel really bad for you. My father was a relatively wealthy man from what I heard but he left me and my Mom to live in poverty. I never saw him again, I was only 2 yrs old and have no memory of him. My mom remarried a good man and life got much better. Today I have absolutely no financial problems-so I have been blessed.

Unlike our earthly fathers our God is a loving God who has our best interest at heart even when we go astray.
nobody

Lexington, KY

#69 Apr 17, 2013
Fire can be judgement or a purifying agent. Baptism of fire as used by John, I believe represents zeal and purification. When we are saved who places the desire to serve God in our souls? The Spirit by fire purifies our soul. What else does it? It is sure not being dipped in water.

1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


We experience various trials in life to make us stronger. Tribulation worketh patience and our trials serve a purpose. This is all a part of our purification by the Spirit and fire. Gold is made pure by refining in fire. I think this is why the example is used below.


1Pe_1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
nobody

Lexington, KY

#70 Apr 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I feel really bad for you. My father was a relatively wealthy man from what I heard but he left me and my Mom to live in poverty. I never saw him again, I was only 2 yrs old and have no memory of him. My mom remarried a good man and life got much better. Today I have absolutely no financial problems-so I have been blessed.
Unlike our earthly fathers our God is a loving God who has our best interest at heart even when we go astray.
Of the three fathers on talked about on here two of them were preachers and one was wealthy. You would think they would make great fathers but that does not seem to have been the case. My father on the other hand was neither wealthy nor a preacher but was a great father. I am the most fortunate among us four and you would think likely to be the least fortunate. Life is strange sometimes.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#71 Apr 17, 2013
Nobody, I think I can join you in saying I have been blessed with a good father. I didn't go through what WIL, Barnsweb, or Bobby did. My dad was gone a lot, but he was working. When he was home he worked all the time. We didn't have lots of time together, and not a deep relationship. He did drink and curse, but not at mom or us. He wasn't violent, and we didn't starve. We never had much, but were basically happy. I just didn't have a real relationship with him, and God changed that.

I will say one thing-I learned from my parents that you stick life out together through thick and thin. If I hadn't had that upbringing, I would have probqbly been divorced and alone a long time ago. Marriage can be hard at times, but having good examples to go by is a great help.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#72 Apr 18, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Nobody, I think I can join you in saying I have been blessed with a good father. I didn't go through what WIL, Barnsweb, or Bobby did. My dad was gone a lot, but he was working. When he was home he worked all the time. We didn't have lots of time together, and not a deep relationship. He did drink and curse, but not at mom or us. He wasn't violent, and we didn't starve. We never had much, but were basically happy. I just didn't have a real relationship with him, and God changed that.
I will say one thing-I learned from my parents that you stick life out together through thick and thin. If I hadn't had that upbringing, I would have probqbly been divorced and alone a long time ago. Marriage can be hard at times, but having good examples to go by is a great help.
I had a good life as a child, my Mom moved back in with my grandparents till I was 10 and she got married. Farm life was hard, we always had enough to eat but not much else.

I learned early on that I wanted a better life and swore to myself I would be a better father. My marriage is great and has been from day one. It is what we do with our circumstances that count...
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#73 Apr 18, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
As I have heard fire is always judgemental so If Christ brings a baptism of fire that can not mean indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe on Pentecost this was clear to those there. To those today it may not be so clear. I do know that Christ commission did not list this as the way of conversion, and the way the message proceeded it was not given that way either.
Wait lets get this straight, John is preaching to those who are repenting that they will be baptized with fire, since he baptized with water...

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

So those being baptized in water would be baptized with fire, so everyone who is water baptized to remove the reasons for them to be judged and sent to hell will be judged and ahem sent to hell???

You might want to rethink this! ;)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#74 Apr 18, 2013
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait lets get this straight, John is preaching to those who are repenting that they will be baptized with fire, since he baptized with water...
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
So those being baptized in water would be baptized with fire, so everyone who is water baptized to remove the reasons for them to be judged and sent to hell will be judged and ahem sent to hell???
You might want to rethink this! ;)
Now you know that is not possible so no that is not the meaning, However fire has always been for distruction and punishment so how does on compare those two. John was also preaching to those who refused his baptism.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#75 Apr 18, 2013
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait lets get this straight, John is preaching to those who are repenting that they will be baptized with fire, since he baptized with water...
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
So those being baptized in water would be baptized with fire, so everyone who is water baptized to remove the reasons for them to be judged and sent to hell will be judged and ahem sent to hell???
You might want to rethink this! ;)
What are you thoughts on this text.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#76 Apr 18, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Now you know that is not possible so no that is not the meaning, However fire has always been for distruction and punishment so how does on compare those two. John was also preaching to those who refused his baptism.
Then you are reading the passage like this:

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and THOSE NOT BAPTIZED WITH WATER HE WILL BAPTIZED with fire:

Funny thing is, that's not how it is written.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#77 Apr 18, 2013
The only scenario I can see this happening in is under the element of correction.

Rev 3:17 Because you say,“I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

But it's clearly not a threat of hell.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#78 Apr 18, 2013
My thoughts are simple baring the tongues of fire that happened at Pentecost, we go though a process of refinement through the Holy Spirit and through his sword called the Bible. As we mature we become more and more refined like gold through a refining fire so that we emerge pure in the site of God. The last stage will be the incorruptible body we receive at the judgement when the dead are raised. At that time we will know as God knows us, fully and completely.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#79 Apr 18, 2013
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait lets get this straight, John is preaching to those who are repenting that they will be baptized with fire, since he baptized with water...
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
So those being baptized in water would be baptized with fire, so everyone who is water baptized to remove the reasons for them to be judged and sent to hell will be judged and ahem sent to hell???
You might want to rethink this! ;)
Here is the complete text of which you speak.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them,“You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “As for me, I baptize you [g]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you [h]with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

To whom is John speaking mostly here? Like your thoughts on this WIL

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#80 Apr 18, 2013
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you are reading the passage like this:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and THOSE NOT BAPTIZED WITH WATER HE WILL BAPTIZED with fire:
Funny thing is, that's not how it is written.
I didnt say anything about water baptism....lol Check out the context and to whom it is speaking.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#81 Apr 18, 2013
Walkinginlove wrote:
My thoughts are simple baring the tongues of fire that happened at Pentecost, we go though a process of refinement through the Holy Spirit and through his sword called the Bible. As we mature we become more and more refined like gold through a refining fire so that we emerge pure in the site of God. The last stage will be the incorruptible body we receive at the judgement when the dead are raised. At that time we will know as God knows us, fully and completely.
We are refined but this is hardly the context here unless you want to force it only in one verse. The leading verses are definitely speaking of fire being a punishment and to change in midstream would make John very confusing to his audience there and the readers of today. Might want to rethink this as you said to me.:)

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