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Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#1
May 28, 2013
 
This has been discussed some before, but wanted to go back for a little while. Where does God draw the line on false ideas, false beliefs being held? How much error can someone hold and be ok? I have some thoughts to share.

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This text, in context, is speaking of leaving the faith and going back to the law. There is no sacrifice for sins for continuing in willful sin. Would this not also be appliable to any willful and knowledgeable sin? After all, James tells us that to him that knows to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

*If someone holds a false doctrine, and deep down inside knows it's wrong, yet continues in it, would it not fall into this category? Would God draw the line here, and should we?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a given, as is rejection of Christ. Anyone have thoughts on just what comprises blasphemy of the Spirit? Do the very words we speak possibly condemn us?

*I also go back to Matthew 15. Traditions of men being elevated to status of scripture, and commands of God being nullified by tradition, seems to be one place God draws a line. What does this say for:
Catholicism and their traditions, or dispensational doctrine such as William's position that states that there is no purpose for baptism; millenial teaching that causes some to put off salvation; OSAS causing some to not care about their lifestyle; homosexuality being accepted in the church; and more. Jesus said that if anyone became a stumbling block, woe to that man! It would be better to have a millstone hung around the neck, and drowned.

*Does God draw the line at being a stumbling block? It appears so. It appears to me that if:
Someone knowingly holds something false;
someone elevates tradition, or nullifies God's word;
Someone causes others to stumble by their beliefs and teachings;
----------

God draws the line there. Did I miss anything? Any thoughts or anything to add?

Since: Jul 11

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#2
May 29, 2013
 
I will address this post later today- got to be more awake to tackle this post.
Mike Peterson

United States

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#3
May 29, 2013
 

Judged:

2

1

1

Dave: "If someone holds a false doctrine, and deep down inside knows it's wrong, yet continues in it, would it not fall into this category? Would God draw the line here, and should we"

100% agree. He absolutely did. Jesus drew that line in the sand when he was alive and before he ascended into heaven.

That line was the Church. Jesus was leaving the world and he set up the way that line was to never move until the end of ages.

SS has been the greatest enemy of that line. It allows anybody to put it exactly where he wants it.

Nothing about a book but the Word of God. Jesus did not say go forth and write a book, he said to go forth and preach what I have taught you. Tradition.

The Church existed at least 10 -20 years before an apostle wrote anything. Only 5 Apostles were credited with writing anything and not everything they wrote made into the Bible.

The Church is the line. It has not budged from the areas of faith and morals since 32 AD even though many Catholic in the pews want Change.

The Bible, which the Church created and has protected for 2000,, is exactly what it says it is , the written word of God sufficient for teaching. Teaching about the line. Taught by who. The Church which is the pillar of Truth.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#4
May 29, 2013
 
Not too long ago the saying was WWJD (what would Jesus do), but this leaves the doors open to whatever anyone could imagine He might do - rather than what the intact Set-Apart Scriptures say He said - the teaching others of what He did command the original disciples (apostles). He also blessed those who would believe on Him through their testimony of Him - the eyewitness testimony of the testimony of heaven from the Father Himself.

And what is the line of error? This is the greatest question we face today or in any past generation, or God willing, every future soul who desires to repent to do the will of God. We know Jesus surely taught about those who called Him 'Lord' and believed soundly that they would be saved - yet He said:'Depart from Me, ye workers of iniquity. I never knew you.' One can only imagine the horror of facing the Lord, the one you believed had freed you from the Torah requirement, only to find it was as He had said,'think not that I have come to destroy Torah' or set it aside.

Acts 3:22,23 is just as important as Acts 2:38; we cannot reject His word and expect to be saved. He called for disciples, not people who merely brand themselves 'Christian' for one man made reason or another.

If you think this is wrong - please do explain why you believe so...
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#5
May 29, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
Dave: "If someone holds a false doctrine, and deep down inside knows it's wrong, yet continues in it, would it not fall into this category? Would God draw the line here, and should we"
100% agree. He absolutely did. Jesus drew that line in the sand when he was alive and before he ascended into heaven.
That line was the Church. Jesus was leaving the world and he set up the way that line was to never move until the end of ages.
SS has been the greatest enemy of that line. It allows anybody to put it exactly where he wants it.
Nothing about a book but the Word of God. Jesus did not say go forth and write a book, he said to go forth and preach what I have taught you. Tradition.
The Church existed at least 10 -20 years before an apostle wrote anything. Only 5 Apostles were credited with writing anything and not everything they wrote made into the Bible.
The Church is the line. It has not budged from the areas of faith and morals since 32 AD even though many Catholic in the pews want Change.
The Bible, which the Church created and has protected for 2000,, is exactly what it says it is , the written word of God sufficient for teaching. Teaching about the line. Taught by who. The Church which is the pillar of Truth.
'The Church' of Christ is the one who has for 2000 years upheld the truth He taught? If that is so, then the only ones true to what He taught -'The truth, and nothing but the truth'- is which Church? Knowing what I know now, if this is the actual and true standard - the only one that could get my vote (not that this is what matters:-) would be the Netzarim, as they are the only ones who have 'kept His word' intact. The RCC killed Netzarim as they sought to force them to change their Scriptural records to match what the RCC said it was.

Now I just can't bring myself to say it was right to kill other followers of the Master Teacher because they believed it was wrong to change any of the explicit word from God.

And some would still wish them ill for maintaining those words that lead to eternal life.

How so?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#6
May 29, 2013
 
aent.org

onediscipletoanother.org

If what God taught through His only begotten Son is needful for salvation and doing the will of God; if the Genesis 5 prophecy is true; if the sermon on the mount and the great commission of Mathew 28 is true:

there are millions who believe themselves to be 'Christians' that will be sent to the pit totally unawares that they have been lied to about what the truth actually is.

The end times are surely a time of great deception and men will not endure sound doctrine, but curse those who try to tell them the truth.

Since: Jul 11

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#7
May 29, 2013
 
Dave wrote:“This has been discussed some before, but wanted to go back for a little while. Where does God draw the line on false ideas, false beliefs being held? How much error can someone hold and be ok? I have some thoughts to share.”

Randy wrote: Is ignorance bliss? Who decides who holds error- how is it determined? The battle of the minds; the best hermeneutical principles; personal interpretation? None of us agree on the Bible 100%. This feeds Mikes fire and every other Catholic out there. They see us all reading the same book, reaching all kinds of opinions and teachings- its no wonder scripture alone is mocked by the RCC. However, what Mike stands for is additions to the Bible- sacred tradition they claim to have come via the apostles. Hail Marys and all that is teachings of the Catholic Church, NOT from the apostles. If going beyond what is written is out of bounds, the RCC are NOT the Church.

Dave wrote: Hebrews 10:26-29
This text, in context, is speaking of leaving the faith and going back to the law. There is no sacrifice for sins for continuing in willful sin. Would this not also be appliable to any willful and knowledgeable sin? After all, James tells us that to him that knows to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Randy wrote: I believe Hebrews 10:26-29 is addressing those who desired to return to Moses, leaving Jesus for Law- in which there remains no forgiveness of sins. It is either Jesus or nothing. I believe the context of “willful sin” is the rejection of Jesus. However, I get your point far as it being applicable.

Since: Jul 11

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#8
May 29, 2013
 
Dave wrote: If someone holds a false doctrine, and deep down inside knows it's wrong, yet continues in it, would it not fall into this category? Would God draw the line here, and should we?

Randy wrote: I’m certain there are people who purposely teach error- however, most people believe error because they simply do not understand something. Most people are honestly seeking truth. In their quest to seek truth, they may hold error. Will God allow this? How far will God allow “ignorance” to be excused? As I stated before, if we take this to its logical end, it opens the door for universalism. There must be certain truths that we all must agree or else we all are going to heaven, no matter what error we hold. Does God excuse error after the point of faith? Maybe. After repentance? When?
__________

Dave wrote: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a given, as is rejection of Christ. Anyone have thoughts on just what comprises blasphemy of the Spirit? Do the very words we speak possibly condemn us?

Randy wrote: In the context of Matt-12:22-32, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan- they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit by Whom Jesus performed His miracles. I’m not sure how this is applicable. Perhaps I’m missing your point.

Since: Jul 11

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#9
May 29, 2013
 
Dave wrote: I also go back to Matthew 15. Traditions of men being elevated to status of scripture, and commands of God being nullified by tradition, seems to be one place God draws a line. What does this say for: Catholicism and their traditions, or dispensational doctrine such as William's position that states that there is no purpose for baptism; millenial teaching that causes some to put off salvation; OSAS causing some to not care about their lifestyle; homosexuality being accepted in the church; and more. Jesus said that if anyone became a stumbling block, woe to that man! It would be better to have a millstone hung around the neck, and drowned.

Randy wrote: Perhaps you are correct- I don’t know. People can be “ignorant” of the things above. I don’t know any person teaching OSAS and KNOW it to be wrong; they wholeheartedly believe it to be true. Same with end-time teaching- most honestly believe what they understand as truth. Homosexuality is stated plainly as sin thus I see this in a separate category. Baptisms’ purpose might also fall into a separate category.
__________

Dave wrote: Does God draw the line at being a stumbling block? It appears so. It appears to me that if:
a. Someone knowingly holds something false;
b. someone elevates tradition, or nullifies God's word;
c. Someone causes others to stumble by their beliefs and teachings;
God draws the line there. Did I miss anything? Any thoughts or anything to add?

Randy wrote: Agree with “a” and “b”………………………c” however could get us all in trouble. If I believe baptism to be part of Gods plan of salvation then my beliefs and teachings on this could cause others to stumble.
mopman

United States

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#10
May 29, 2013
 
It is simple randy. Run far and fast from it all and become Catholic.
Mike Peterson

Atlanta, GA

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#11
May 29, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
It is simple randy. Run far and fast from it all and become Catholic.
Exactly.

It is the only Church that has existed since Jesus. The Protesters moved the line.

Church = Truth = Line

Bible = Gods written word sufficient for teaching. Helps make the liner clearer.

Then you can add the prayer by Jesus. " all should be as one as the Father and I are one"

You cross the line are you are no longer part of the "one" that existed for 1500 years and you that can still find today.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#12
May 29, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
It is simple randy. Run far and fast from it all and become Catholic.
Wrong mopman. They violate the whole "binding and elevating traditions to scripture" thing, plus sacrificing Christ on a daily basis in the mass which amounts to blasphemy, not to mention idolatry and other such things. Elevating the church to a position never intended, having two heads, etc. As Randy said earlier, if Jesus was here, He'd deal with that-and when He returns He will.

I think Matthew 23 also addresses them very well.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#13
May 29, 2013
 
Going to address BW's posts first.
And what is the line of error? This is the greatest question we face today or in any past generation, or God willing, every future soul who desires to repent to do the will of God. We know Jesus surely taught about those who called Him 'Lord' and believed soundly that they would be saved - yet He said:'Depart from Me, ye workers of iniquity. I never knew you.' One can only imagine the horror of facing the Lord, the one you believed had freed you from the Torah requirement, only to find it was as He had said,'think not that I have come to destroy Torah' or set it aside.

Dave P-thought of this a lot, as well as the idea of "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." I think oftentimes we take matters of faith and decide very carelessly about them, as if some things don't matter. But every decision, every idle word, we will be held accountable on the great day. Why teachers have a stricter judgment! That should scare the pants off anyone who desires to teach others the Word! These are not trivial matters, and to make them so, or even to simply "take the church's word for it", is a dangerous game to play. God isn't playing.

BW-'The Church' of Christ is the one who has for 2000 years upheld the truth He taught? If that is so, then the only ones true to what He taught -'The truth, and nothing but the truth'- is which Church? Knowing what I know now, if this is the actual and true standard - the only one that could get my vote (not that this is what matters:-) would be the Netzarim, as they are the only ones who have 'kept His word' intact. The RCC killed Netzarim as they sought to force them to change their Scriptural records to match what the RCC said it was.

Now I just can't bring myself to say it was right to kill other followers of the Master Teacher because they believed it was wrong to change any of the explicit word from God.

And some would still wish them ill for maintaining those words that lead to eternal life.

How so?

Dave P-have to agree. Of course, being the oldest isn't the standard as you point out. But given a choice between those two, one is a better option than the other.

BW-Acts 3:22,23 is just as important as Acts 2:38; we cannot reject His word and expect to be saved. He called for disciples, not people who merely brand themselves 'Christian' for one man made reason or another.
If what God taught through His only begotten Son is needful for salvation and doing the will of God; if the Genesis 5 prophecy is true; if the sermon on the mount and the great commission of Mathew 28 is true:

there are millions who believe themselves to be 'Christians' that will be sent to the pit totally unawares that they have been lied to about what the truth actually is.

The end times are surely a time of great deception and men will not endure sound doctrine, but curse those who try to tell them the truth.

Dave P-have to agree with all those final points. We all need to consider them. 3 excellent posts in my opinion, much to think about.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#14
May 29, 2013
 
Now for Randy's posts:
Randy-Randy wrote: Is ignorance bliss? Who decides who holds error- how is it determined? The battle of the minds; the best hermeneutical principles; personal interpretation? None of us agree on the Bible 100%.

Dave P-the one who decides what error is ultimately is God. None of us agree 100%. Ultimately, which errors really influence salvation-to me, imho, this is really the critical point. If we disagree about 1 Peter 3-when and how and who preached to the spirits in prison-does that affect our salvation? No. But if we take that to say that we have a second chance after death to hear and respond to the gospel, could that affect our salvation? Absolutely. If I personally believe OSAS, but I still live a Christian life in the Spirit, does that affect my salvation? I don't think so-but if I teach someone who understands that to be a license to sin, it becomes a stumbling block and can lead to their ruin.
We that teach need to examine the doctrines we teach-where they ultimately lead to. We do the best we can do, study to show ourselves approved, and God will judge at the end.

Randy: This feeds Mikes fire and every other Catholic out there. They see us all reading the same book, reaching all kinds of opinions and teachings- its no wonder scripture alone is mocked by the RCC. However, what Mike stands for is additions to the Bible- sacred tradition they claim to have come via the apostles. Hail Marys and all that is teachings of the Catholic Church, NOT from the apostles. If going beyond what is written is out of bounds, the RCC are NOT the Church.

Dave P-agree. Unfortunately, all the religious confusion in the world does feed the fires of such people. We have two extremes-hundreds of differing opinions, many wrong vs. a group that all holds mostly the same teachings, yet wrong. Don't forget-this is all happening within the will of God. By that I simply mean that God is allowing all of this confusion. I believe it is to see who is truly seeking after Him, who is willing to cut through all the noise and clutter and really be a disciple as BW would say. It is possible, and isn't meant to be easy.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#15
May 29, 2013
 
Randy wrote: I believe Hebrews 10:26-29 is addressing those who desired to return to Moses, leaving Jesus for Law- in which there remains no forgiveness of sins. It is either Jesus or nothing. I believe the context of “willful sin” is the rejection of Jesus. However, I get your point far as it being applicable.

Dave P-agree. Trying not to divorce the text from it's context-and you are right about the context. I do see this as being applicable in other situations. If we willfully sin knowing it's sin in other situations, I feel it does apply.

Randy wrote: I’m certain there are people who purposely teach error- however, most people believe error because they simply do not understand something. Most people are honestly seeking truth. In their quest to seek truth, they may hold error. Will God allow this? How far will God allow “ignorance” to be excused? As I stated before, if we take this to its logical end, it opens the door for universalism. There must be certain truths that we all must agree or else we all are going to heaven, no matter what error we hold. Does God excuse error after the point of faith? Maybe. After repentance? When?

Dave P-this is the sticky part isn't it? Certain truths-the gospel. Death, burial, resurrection of Christ-the gospel is the power of God to salvation. The eunuch confessed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John called antichrist those who denied Jesus coming in the flesh. Lack of faith certainly, because without faith it is impossible to please God. Hearing and doing the words of Jesus are necessary-how we interpret and decide what that means is the big issue.

If all of the above are true, universalism is gone out the window. Many people deny that Christ actually died on the cross, He swooned; many deny His deity; gnostics still exist today; unbelievers are still here; many don't listen or obey His word, even within the confines of the "church".

Thought question-are all seeking truth? How many already believe they have truth figured out, and won't change their minds no matter what is presented to them? I know MANY. How many would be willing to leave whatever group they're part of if they learn truth?

I wholeheartedly believe we will be held accountable for what we know and act on, not what we don't know. But God also expects us to learn and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. We will be held accountable for that too.

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#16
May 29, 2013
 
Dave: Thought question-are all seeking truth? How many already believe they have truth figured out, and won't change their minds no matter what is presented to them? I know MANY. How many would be willing to leave whatever group they're part of if they learn truth?

Randy: True! Good point!
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#17
May 29, 2013
 
Randy wrote: Perhaps you are correct- I don’t know. People can be “ignorant” of the things above. I don’t know any person teaching OSAS and KNOW it to be wrong; they wholeheartedly believe it to be true. Same with end-time teaching- most honestly believe what they understand as truth. Homosexuality is stated plainly as sin thus I see this in a separate category. Baptisms’ purpose might also fall into a separate category.

Dave-I agree that many do believe what they teach. They aren't trying to lead others astray. They can be ignorant as you say. I don't necessarily think someone is lost for believing such as these. But, when they're taught and lead to false ideas that affect someone's salvation, both teacher and hearer are in trouble.

Example-guy at work goes to a charismatic church. I don't believe in "tongues", but one isn't lost simply for doing it. BUT- the preacher teaches that tongues are the "evidence of being saved", and this man thinks that if the Spirit doesn't move on him he can't be saved. What's next-does he fake it; or does he just walk away with no hope? That's the danger.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#18
May 29, 2013
 
Gonna stop for a while and let other thoughts and posts come in. Lots of feedback. Much to think about-and this isn't an easy thing to pinpoint down.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#19
May 29, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Randy wrote: Perhaps you are correct- I don’t know. People can be “ignorant” of the things above. I don’t know any person teaching OSAS and KNOW it to be wrong; they wholeheartedly believe it to be true. Same with end-time teaching- most honestly believe what they understand as truth. Homosexuality is stated plainly as sin thus I see this in a separate category. Baptisms’ purpose might also fall into a separate category.
Dave-I agree that many do believe what they teach. They aren't trying to lead others astray. They can be ignorant as you say. I don't necessarily think someone is lost for believing such as these. But, when they're taught and lead to false ideas that affect someone's salvation, both teacher and hearer are in trouble.
Example-guy at work goes to a charismatic church. I don't believe in "tongues", but one isn't lost simply for doing it. BUT- the preacher teaches that tongues are the "evidence of being saved", and this man thinks that if the Spirit doesn't move on him he can't be saved. What's next-does he fake it; or does he just walk away with no hope? That's the danger.
I have thought the same things in regard to the tongues issue. In fact there was I time I asked God for the gift of tongues and to this day it has never happened.

While I am fully convinced that Jesus is the only way to the father, I am willing to admit that there is still a lot I do not understand. I am not willing to give up my faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord but If there was some way to be fully convinced of any error I hold, I think I could accept that.
William

Opelika, AL

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#20
May 29, 2013
 
ISAS, is what I like to term it.

:)

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