created by: Barnsweb | Aug 11, 2013

Martinsville, VA

58 votes

Who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses

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  • God
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  • Peter
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#365
Sep 3, 2013
 
It boils down to the grade on the curve. If God allows one group to be saved although they hold false teaching, why not another?

Personally, I believe there are saved Catholics - but Mike and Mark have made me question this. I mean question me thinking there are saved Catholics. If all are like them two, I'm not so sure. They use cuss words like any other sinner out there.

I guess, in the end, God is the final Judge.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#366
Sep 3, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
That's easy. The Church started with only Tradition. That is how Jesus taught, orally (tradition)
The Church was 10 years old before the first word that is now considered scripture was written. It was 60 years old before the last words were written.
It was 350 years old before the Bible was created.
So the Bible supplanted the teachings of the Church which was tradition only at first.
Jesus created a Church. No scripture. The Church did that.
I agree that the church started before the NT scripture was written. However that church was never called Roman catholic. And, the scripture was written before the apostles died and was used in the early church long before it was canonized.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#367
Sep 3, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
It boils down to the grade on the curve. If God allows one group to be saved although they hold false teaching, why not another?
Personally, I believe there are saved Catholics - but Mike and Mark have made me question this. I mean question me thinking there are saved Catholics. If all are like them two, I'm not so sure. They use cuss words like any other sinner out there.
I guess, in the end, God is the final Judge.
Give me the list of curse words that I am not suppose to use. Does the Bible list them or are they part of your Tradition?

Wait, you don't believe in Tradition
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#368
Sep 3, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
It boils down to the grade on the curve. If God allows one group to be saved although they hold false teaching, why not another?
Personally, I believe there are saved Catholics - but Mike and Mark have made me question this. I mean question me thinking there are saved Catholics. If all are like them two, I'm not so sure. They use cuss words like any other sinner out there.
I guess, in the end, God is the final Judge.
I agree with both you and Dave. It is not our call because only God knows what is in our hearts. Most of the people in my church think the same way because we value the grace of God. However are to believe the catholic boys here when they say we are all lost as a goose unless we convert to Catholicism?-absolutely not! This is the very reason I began to have trouble with the church of Christ, but that is changing now. As I have said before "if Jesus was to return on a sunday morning, there will be a lot of church going people left behind". That belief that the church is the savior is dead wrong!
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#369
Sep 3, 2013
 
Most of the booths for Baptists and Evangelical Churches asked,'If you were to die today, do you know if you'll go to heaven?' Do they really know? I know they think they know, but so did all those Jesus said that He never knew!

Thank God for His grace, and I hope they're saved, but I won't put my soul in the same church pot they're in. Is taking Yeshua at His word being 'legalistic'? I prefer to think of it in terms of discipleship and growing in His words that lead to eternal life.

None of us will absolutely know until His return, when the 'faith becomes sight'. Even Abraham didn't attain the promise in his lifetime - but perhaps God gave him a vision of what was to come? He looked for the heavenly city not built with hands where only righteousness dwells.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#370
Sep 3, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
Most of the booths for Baptists and Evangelical Churches asked,'If you were to die today, do you know if you'll go to heaven?' Do they really know? I know they think they know, but so did all those Jesus said that He never knew!
Thank God for His grace, and I hope they're saved, but I won't put my soul in the same church pot they're in. Is taking Yeshua at His word being 'legalistic'? I prefer to think of it in terms of discipleship and growing in His words that lead to eternal life.
None of us will absolutely know until His return, when the 'faith becomes sight'. Even Abraham didn't attain the promise in his lifetime - but perhaps God gave him a vision of what was to come? He looked for the heavenly city not built with hands where only righteousness dwells.
I am not surprised that you cannot be sure that you are saved because that is the way it is when you depend on law keeping for your salvation. The reason I know this is because not one person was ever saved through the law system, because no one other than Jesus has kept all of it.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#371
Sep 3, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not surprised that you cannot be sure that you are saved because that is the way it is when you depend on law keeping for your salvation. The reason I know this is because not one person was ever saved through the law system, because no one other than Jesus has kept all of it.
Believe it or not, you missed the point and my viewpoint on it.

The standard is 'blameless', not 'perfection'. You might spend some time reading in the OT;-)
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#372
Sep 3, 2013
 
Were Moses and Elijah and Ezekiel saved?
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#373
Sep 3, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Protestants have a hard time with concept of Authority. Especially American Protestants. They confuse the Democracy of Politics and the Kingdom of God.
From the CCC:
"The keys of the kingdom"
551 From the beginning of his public life Jesus chose certain men, twelve in number, to be with him and to participate in his mission.280 He gives the Twelve a share in his authority and 'sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal."281 They remain associated for ever with Christ's kingdom, for through them he directs the Church:
As my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.282
552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the "living Stone",285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286
553 Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."287 The "power of the keys" designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: "Feed my sheep."288 The power to "bind and loose" connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles289 and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.
If Jesus built the Church on Peter, rather than His being the Son of God and long awaited Messiah, then we should find something that puts Peter in this central role in the Great Commission. But He spoke of making disciple of Him - not Peter. Immersion into the Name (FSH)(which Peter did express in Acts 2). Then He went on to instruct them that His commandments are what the disciples are to be instructed to keep - all of them,'whatsoever I have commanded you'. The corpus was set, and Peter, as the rest of the Twelve, and we who follow in their footsteps, abide in what He told them to do.

'Binding' has to do with judgment. A judge bound the defendant, but 'loosed' him if found innocent of charges - sort of a legally binding thing. That's why the two or more had to establish it - that was the standard of judgment God required. So when they chose the replacement apostle, that was an example of their authority on earth. Makes sense to me anyway.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#374
Sep 3, 2013
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
Were Moses and Elijah and Ezekiel saved?
They were saved when Jesus descended into hell.

They discussed the details during the transfiguration.

Moses and Elijah represent the two principal components of the Old Testament: the Law and the Prophets.

Moses was the giver of the Law, and Elijah was considered the greatest of the prophets.

The fact that these two figures "spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem" illustrates that the Law and the Prophets point forward to the Messiah and his sufferings.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#375
Sep 3, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
It boils down to the grade on the curve. If God allows one group to be saved although they hold false teaching, why not another?
Personally, I believe there are saved Catholics - but Mike and Mark have made me question this. I mean question me thinking there are saved Catholics. If all are like them two, I'm not so sure. They use cuss words like any other sinner out there.
I guess, in the end, God is the final Judge.
The church of Sardis shows us that indeed, some can be saved inside organizations that have error going on there. This gives me hope for all of us, because I don't think any can honestly say we have everything figured out. Salvation is individual, not collective.

I am also disappointed because one of my former mentors is a former catholic, and as Mike and Mark point out, his information about the RCC is actually not in accordance with what Catholicism actually seems to teach. Often we see simple hit pieces that aren't exactly true. I have found that the coc does this at times with others as well.

Let's also be honest. Some catholics throughout history had to be saved, or else Jesus' words about the gates of Hades not prevailing against His church would be a lie. I am not the biggest M & M fan in the world. But, much traditional RCC teaching is pretty sound.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#376
Sep 4, 2013
 
The epistles of Yeshua in Revelation sure point out that the Church you go to matters, but also that membership does not equal salvation. To which of the seven churches do we belong? And are the seven churches also a foretelling of the yet future history of the church? or words to consider for ourselves?

Perhaps the 'heaven or hell' preaching needs to be reviewed? What of those 'outside' the New Jerusalem, who get healing from the leaves of the tree of life?

Anyone have some thoughts on that to share? Perhaps there are many who don't go to hell with Satan and his angels, but are also not in the heavenly city? Just a thought I had from the other day....
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#377
Sep 4, 2013
 

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Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
The church of Sardis shows us that indeed, some can be saved inside organizations that have error going on there. This gives me hope for all of us, because I don't think any can honestly say we have everything figured out. Salvation is individual, not collective.
I am also disappointed because one of my former mentors is a former catholic, and as Mike and Mark point out, his information about the RCC is actually not in accordance with what Catholicism actually seems to teach. Often we see simple hit pieces that aren't exactly true. I have found that the coc does this at times with others as well.
Let's also be honest. Some catholics throughout history had to be saved, or else Jesus' words about the gates of Hades not prevailing against His church would be a lie. I am not the biggest M & M fan in the world. But, much traditional RCC teaching is pretty sound.
I would say all RCC teaching is completely sound. It is the pillar of Truth.

Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#378
Sep 4, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
The epistles of Yeshua in Revelation sure point out that the Church you go to matters, but also that membership does not equal salvation. To which of the seven churches do we belong? And are the seven churches also a foretelling of the yet future history of the church? or words to consider for ourselves?
Perhaps the 'heaven or hell' preaching needs to be reviewed? What of those 'outside' the New Jerusalem, who get healing from the leaves of the tree of life?
Anyone have some thoughts on that to share? Perhaps there are many who don't go to hell with Satan and his angels, but are also not in the heavenly city? Just a thought I had from the other day....
Hell or Heaven. That is your judgement results.

Only the pure will enter heaven directly.

Those of us who are not completely pure will be purified as through fire before they are ready to meet Jesus.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#379
Sep 4, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Hell or Heaven. That is your judgement results.
Only the pure will enter heaven directly.
Those of us who are not completely pure will be purified as through fire before they are ready to meet Jesus.
Only the shed blood of Jesus has the power to purify/cleanse us. It was offered only once for all time never to be repeated. We don't have to offer a new sacrifice each time we sin or do works to pay for our sin. There is no such thing as purgatory!
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#380
Sep 4, 2013
 

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Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Only the shed blood of Jesus has the power to purify/cleanse us. It was offered only once for all time never to be repeated. We don't have to offer a new sacrifice each time we sin or do works to pay for our sin. There is no such thing as purgatory!
Thank ya Jeeezzzzusss!!!!!

One of the many problems with Bobby's infallible interpretation of a Catholic book is he ignores most of it. Every verse in the Bible is is true in context.

Notice no blood mentioned in these.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and when Paul was baptized he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them,‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23).(This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

I would say the blood of Christ, baptism, and confession all forgive sins. They are all in the Bible. Oh yeah, how I can forget the Eucharist.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#381
Sep 4, 2013
 

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Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
They were saved when Jesus descended into hell.
They discussed the details during the transfiguration.
Moses and Elijah represent the two principal components of the Old Testament: the Law and the Prophets.
Moses was the giver of the Law, and Elijah was considered the greatest of the prophets.
The fact that these two figures "spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem" illustrates that the Law and the Prophets point forward to the Messiah and his sufferings.
Can someone explain why this was judged badly?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#382
Sep 4, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
The epistles of Yeshua in Revelation sure point out that the Church you go to matters, but also that membership does not equal salvation. To which of the seven churches do we belong? And are the seven churches also a foretelling of the yet future history of the church? or words to consider for ourselves?
Perhaps the 'heaven or hell' preaching needs to be reviewed? What of those 'outside' the New Jerusalem, who get healing from the leaves of the tree of life?
Anyone have some thoughts on that to share? Perhaps there are many who don't go to hell with Satan and his angels, but are also not in the heavenly city? Just a thought I had from the other day....
Are you dancing in limbo/purgatory territory? You believe there is an "in-between"? Please share thoughts here.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#383
Sep 5, 2013
 
In Revelation only certain people can enter the New Jerusalem - those who have the right to. They will be able to eat of the tree of life. Doesn't it also say that those outside the city would be able to use the leaves of the tree of life for healing? Trying to make some literal application might be that there are many not going to hell with Satan and his angels, but who will also not be able to enter the new Jerusalem....?

What's your take on the passage?
MCOC

Martinsville, VA

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#384
Sep 5, 2013
 
literal application is where you are off track.

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