created by: Barnsweb | Aug 11, 2013

Martinsville, VA

104 votes

Who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses

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Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#1
Aug 11, 2013
 
The Law and Testimony say that God gave the Torah to Moses. This is retold in The books of Moses - the first five books of the Bible.

Then we see from Paul's letters in the New Testament that the Law was given through angels. Paul goes on to say that they are weak and beggarly elements (elements being spiritual beings). Paul also ascribes the authority of God to earthly rulers. It seems Paul was one confused fellow. Jude, brother of Y'shua, provides a scathing overview to warn others about Paul.

Why should we put so much trust in what Paul said when he didn't even tell the truth on who gave Moses the Law? Apparently, Paul appealed to Rome because the Jerusalem Church leadership had no authority of him, but the god/man of Rome would do the justice of God?
William

Birmingham, AL

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#2
Aug 11, 2013
 
Luke wrote the full account of the Acts of the Apostles and included Paul.

Peter vanishes entirely after Acts 15, so you probably should include Luke on your Hate List of writers of the Bible who don't fit in with your Wanna-be Jew's School of Fake Jewish Righteousness.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#3
Aug 12, 2013
 
And who is (was) Luke? A very close companion of Paul - not the other disciples. And I take Luke at his word. He believed through Paul and to my knowledge didn't have the knowledge of how to tell who God was speaking through - how to tell by the directions given by God through Moses, the established prophets who followed him, and then retold by Jesus (Y'shua) and the record we have of the twelve apostles. James and Jude, knowing Him intimately, as well as the direction and commandment given by God, never called Paul one of the twelve. And what better way to escape detection than to declare the directions void and old and dead and replaced - with his directions replacing them.

Luke didn't write the full account, as he quoted many things briefly. He did quote what he heard for the most part. In fact, he quoted Paul and various exchanges enough that we can know the truth about Paul.

So I thank God that Luke recorded the matters of Acts 1-3 in historical context of the speakers involved, but once Paul is on the scene, have you ever noted how Luke is Paul's personal historian?

Who gave the Torah to Moses? God or angels?
William

Birmingham, AL

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#4
Aug 12, 2013
 

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"So I thank God that Luke recorded the matters of Acts 1-3 in historical context of the speakers involved, but once Paul is on the scene, have you ever noted how Luke is Paul's personal historian?"

This is lame even for a fake wanna-be Jew like you. The Holy Spirit wrote Acts via the pen of Luke, so you don't get to pick and choose what chapters you like and don't like of the account.

Run along now and sell out everything you own. Including your computer. If we see you posting here again it means that you have failed to follow everything that Jesus told you to do.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#5
Aug 12, 2013
 

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No, as I have yet to finish with you William. I'm merely a wanna-be disciple of Y'shua, pointing out some vital things of the once for all delivered faith and contending for the truth.

You have your dreams of salvation according to Paul, whereas I have mine according to Jesus, the real twelve apostles, and the set-apart prophets that God DID approve of.

Is it that you don't have the courage to believe what Y'shua said the words of God are?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#6
Aug 12, 2013
 

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Are you ashamed of the words of God? Are the words of God causing you to stumble because you placed your faith on a few passages from Paul?

Even Martin Luther repented of his mistake of putting faith in Paul instead of Jesus.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#7
Aug 12, 2013
 

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"I'm merely a wanna-be disciple of Y'shua, pointing out some vital things of the once for all delivered faith and contending for the truth."

You are doing nothing but picking and choosing verses here and there to establish your own righteousness. The sacrifice of Christ for your sins and his resurrection for your justification means exactly nothing to you. All you want to be able to do is brag that you were "keeping the law" and God will not permit anyone to brag about what they did to either be righteous via their own works or to claim salvation by anything other than the finished work of Christ.

The law was given as a schoolmaster to show you that you need a savior. It was never intended to make anyone righteous. If it could do that, then Christ's death was completely in vain.

You seriously need to re-think what you think you can do via "obeying" the law, when not one single person in recorded history was ever able to do it outside of Jesus Christ. NOT ONE PERSON could ever do it, and that includes you and all those AENT clowns who think they can do it.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#8
Aug 12, 2013
 

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William wrote:
"I'm merely a wanna-be disciple of Y'shua, pointing out some vital things of the once for all delivered faith and contending for the truth."
You are doing nothing but picking and choosing verses here and there to establish your own righteousness. The sacrifice of Christ for your sins and his resurrection for your justification means exactly nothing to you. All you want to be able to do is brag that you were "keeping the law" and God will not permit anyone to brag about what they did to either be righteous via their own works or to claim salvation by anything other than the finished work of Christ.
The law was given as a schoolmaster to show you that you need a savior. It was never intended to make anyone righteous. If it could do that, then Christ's death was completely in vain.
You seriously need to re-think what you think you can do via "obeying" the law, when not one single person in recorded history was ever able to do it outside of Jesus Christ. NOT ONE PERSON could ever do it, and that includes you and all those AENT clowns who think they can do it.
You are wrong again. Y'shua elevated the law, He upheld it. It spoke of Him, as did Moses and the other prophets of God.

'If they speak not according to the Law and the Testimony, there is no light in them.' That one is from Isaiah.

Jesus said if we love Him that we will keep His commandments, as He loves the Father and keeps His commandments. Take your beef up with Him - not me.

You support those who deny what God has said and treat with contempt those who desire to walk in the ways He decreed and exampled for us all. Sad thing is you likely call yourself a Christian, when you are no more a Christian than the Pharisee Paul, who also rejected the very word of God...

Believe it or not, He doesn't even know you.
William

Montgomery, AL

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#9
Aug 12, 2013
 
"Jesus said if we love Him that we will keep His commandments, as He loves the Father and keeps His commandments."

OK, let's see what he said then:

Luke 18:18-22

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell ALL that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Looks like you haven't sold out and given to the poor, or else the poor would have your computer. And everything else you own. You want to follow every command of Jesus? Well put up or shut up right here.

Otherwise, you are nothing more than a sanctimonious fraud, claiming doctrine that wasn't written to you, for you, or even about you. Christ himself told the 12 and later a Canaanite woman that they and he were not sent to preach but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 10:5-7 and Matthew 15:24), and that ain't none of the likes of you, me, or anyone else on this page.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

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#10
Aug 14, 2013
 
Deuteronomy 33:2; various Psalms, and Acts 7 all provide some evidence that angels were indeed at Sinai during the giving of the law. Jewish tradition believes so as well.
Paul did not invent this idea. Slandering him on it is wrong.
Williams

Birmingham, AL

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#11
Aug 14, 2013
 
He probably thinks that Paul wrote Hebrews too.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#12
Aug 15, 2013
 
If you knew Jesus you'd know what He said and use His words to refute me - which you've tried. Maybe you'll be interested to hear what the original said?(from the AENT)

But keeping the threads 'clean', Jesus said God spoke to Moses from the burning bush - not an angel. Paul said it was an angel. Jesus said it was God, Paul said it was a beggarly angel - who are we to believe?

Then later on Paul says the Law was given by angels, not God. The Bible record says God gave the Law to Moses. Paul speaks not according to the Law nor the Prophets - and not even according to Jesus Christ or the twelve.

If what God said we are to do to know if someone speaks for Him is carefully followed - we have to reject Paul as a false apostle and liar - which is what Jesus does in Revelation 2, as well as the warnings given about those who were to come in His name and tell lies...

If Paul did tell the truth he wouldn't have so markedly departed from the words of God through His chosen representatives. You're in good company - even LDS do the same thing you're doing.
killedjoe

Lindenhurst, NY

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#13
Aug 15, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
The Law and Testimony say that God gave the Torah to Moses. This is retold in The books of Moses - the first five books of the Bible.
Then we see from Paul's letters in the New Testament that the Law was given through angels. Paul goes on to say that they are weak and beggarly elements (elements being spiritual beings). Paul also ascribes the authority of God to earthly rulers. It seems Paul was one confused fellow. Jude, brother of Y'shua, provides a scathing overview to warn others about Paul.
Why should we put so much trust in what Paul said when he didn't even tell the truth on who gave Moses the Law? Apparently, Paul appealed to Rome because the Jerusalem Church leadership had no authority of him, but the god/man of Rome would do the justice of God?
And who or what are the angels. And which angels. Angel of light or angel of darkness. E=MC2
Fathead

United States

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#14
Aug 15, 2013
 
This is backed up further in Hebrews 2:2:

"We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by "angels" was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?"

Maybe Paul wrote Hebrews too ;-)
William

Birmingham, AL

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#15
Aug 15, 2013
 
"Maybe Paul wrote Hebrews too."

You really should quote the entire verse, and then analyze what it says.

Hebrews 2:3-4

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

"... and was confirmed unto US by THEM than heard him; God also bearing THEM witness..."

Whomever it was that wrote Hebrews heard from people who were with Christ and heard him personally. This would exclude Peter, James, John, the rest of the disciples, and Paul, who was with the Lord following his resurrection.

Besides, if you think that Paul wrote Hebrews, then you should discard the epistle entirely since some of you reject his ministry entirely. If you don't reject his ministry entirely and accept that the epistle (written to Hebrews, btw) is genuine, then Paul cannot be the author because he heard the Lord firsthand. The writer of this epistle did not hear the Lord firsthand, as the two verses above state.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the epistle (to the Hebrews, not gentiles), but by whose hand it was penned is just not known.
Caleb

Martinsville, VA

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#16
Aug 15, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
The Law and Testimony say that God gave the Torah to Moses. This is retold in The books of Moses - the first five books of the Bible.
Then we see from Paul's letters in the New Testament that the Law was given through angels. Paul goes on to say that they are weak and beggarly elements (elements being spiritual beings). Paul also ascribes the authority of God to earthly rulers. It seems Paul was one confused fellow. Jude, brother of Y'shua, provides a scathing overview to warn others about Paul.
Why should we put so much trust in what Paul said when he didn't even tell the truth on who gave Moses the Law? Apparently, Paul appealed to Rome because the Jerusalem Church leadership had no authority of him, but the god/man of Rome would do the justice of God?
It’s simple, really. Scripture says it was the “angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Jesus sent His Revelation to John “by an angel”, who spoke for Him. Angels are simply how God intervenes in this world and communicates with Humans. That validates what scripture says:“No man has yet seen God, but the Son, who has revealed Him.”
killedjoe

Lindenhurst, NY

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#17
Aug 15, 2013
 
Caleb wrote:
<quoted text>
It’s simple, really. Scripture says it was the “angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Jesus sent His Revelation to John “by an angel”, who spoke for Him. Angels are simply how God intervenes in this world and communicates with Humans. That validates what scripture says:“No man has yet seen God, but the Son, who has revealed Him.”
So is the angel that fought Jacob, was not an angel of the Lord?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#18
Aug 16, 2013
 
Fathead wrote:
This is backed up further in Hebrews 2:2:
"We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by "angels" was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?"
Maybe Paul wrote Hebrews too ;-)
Thanks for pointing that verse out - if it wasn't Paul, maybe it was a close associate that believed Paul? The more I look into it, the more it seems most of the NT should be tossed out if what Jesus taught is the actual gospel. From my take so far, Matthew, John, Peter, James and Jude don't disagree with what He taught. Luke records some good info in Acts, particularly what the Twelve taught and preached - until Paul comes on the scene... From that point on I doubt them both.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#19
Aug 16, 2013
 
Caleb wrote:
<quoted text>
It’s simple, really. Scripture says it was the “angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Jesus sent His Revelation to John “by an angel”, who spoke for Him. Angels are simply how God intervenes in this world and communicates with Humans. That validates what scripture says:“No man has yet seen God, but the Son, who has revealed Him.”
What did Jesus say? Who did Jesus say appeared to Moses in the burning bush?

Luke 20:37;
(34..) Jesus answered and said to them,'The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised , when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. For He is not the god of the dead, but of the living.

Exodus 3:1-6, 15

The NKJV has this as the angel of the Lord was appearing as a fire from the midst of the bush and when God saw that Moses turned aside to see the bush that God called to Moses from the bush and said 'Moses, Moses!'
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#20
Aug 16, 2013
 
As for Revelation, there are direct statements from Master Y'shua included as well - not just an angel telling visions. And not all of Revelation is symbolism, and He have much we need to know therein. Just one thing is Rev. 2, that we might know the error of Paul to say it's OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols when it is actually forbidden and not a matter of personal discernment as to knowing if 'a weaker brother' is at the table. Paul was a Balaam, just as He warned.

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