Prove That God Is REAL

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Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#222
Jun 18, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, it would be nice to have another life after this one. It would be nice to get to be with all the people I loved who are dead. It would be nice to avoid never-ending suffering. It would be nice, nice, nice.
I know, Bobby, that when my brain ceases to function that all the knowledge, memories, influences, cares, and personality that is me will cease to exist. The only way that any of that lives on is through the communications that I leave behind - my writings, my pictures, the memories that others have of me - I would still exist until all of those things are gone and then it will be as if I never existed. And I won't care - because I won't exist.
You think that the alternative to Heaven is Hell. I believe it is nothing. You say my position is sad, but I say: it is honest even if you are sad about it. I am not sad - I accept that my life will be over whenever it's over and it will be no different for you than for me. How can you think that something biologically different would happen when you die than when I die just because we had different thoughts? Our bodies are the same.
When you look at the awesomeness of the universe, what do you see? I see the power of a creator and that creator can give people new life. At least if I am wrong and the bible is a lie, I lose nothing.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#223
Jun 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
ASM, you miss the important point here. Your attitude in your response is right. But, the verses I quoted here are dealing with "anyone who claims to be a brother or sister". He had already redeemed them. They were rotten to the core, and He ate with them. Then they went and acted like they had before they had been redeemed. Paul is telling the church not to associate with "brothers" acting like that. They are to be warned, and if they don't listen, then put out of the church. But even then, the point for them was to repent and come back, not hate or spite.
No coveting for Christians or you'll void out your assurance of being accepted into Heaven.

Christians are to accept what they have and not yearn for what others have. Christians are not allowed to take what others have. Christians are to control their envy and jealousy - when they experience it, they tell God and God eases the emotion?

I agree that coveting benefits no one. It fuels a bitter resentment towards others - not good for others or the person resenting. My advice towards coveting is this: if you can recognize your emotion, you can control your emotion. No need to drag God into it - the power to control yourself is within everyone. Why do you need God to tell you to accept your life for what it IS instead of what you want it to be? I can tell you that.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#224
Jun 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Envy desires to deprive someone else of what they have; jealousy wants the same thing for itself. Another example-envy (covet) wants what someone else has; jealousy fears losing what it has to someone they feel is superior to them.
Would you say that society suggests that envy and jealousy are excellent motivators? They both motivate people to be superior over another - they able people to disregard the method of achievement so long as the goal is met.

Hmm, do not covet. I had long ignored this commandment, considering it a given. I will look for life examples of coveting.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#225
Jun 19, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
When you look at the awesomeness of the universe, what do you see? I see the power of a creator and that creator can give people new life. At least if I am wrong and the bible is a lie, I lose nothing.
Bobby - your faith is so wonderful - I feel like such a jerk when I keep trying to yank it out from under you. I can only keep honestly having this conversation because I have faith that YOUR faith will not be wavered by anything I say. I'm the Devil, Bob, don't get to believing me. I often wish I could stop believing what I say, but I can't.

Let's pretend for a second that I am correct. Suppose you spend your life faithfully following God's rules - if you were any good at it, you probably turned out to be a responsible, well-behaved gentleman - there's no loser there, right? Suppose you died and when you did, you ceased to exist - that is what I believe happens to all people and animals, even plants and planets. Nothing lost - that is true - no betrayal, no anger at being mislead, no worries about your soul's future - your emotions will be gone. Why not be faithful to God? I certainly seems to make you very happy. I just disagree that it is necessary to reach your ultimate result: dead and decaying, just as I will without any faith.

I think the world and the universe and everything else is just awesome too! I get annoyed hearing God get all the credit - this stuff just happens and God's magic seems like a reasonable explaination for it. I don't have a better one - but that doesn't mean that there isn't a better one. Explaining nature in terms that the population can understand is why any myth originated.

"Why in the night sky are the lights hung?
Why is the Earth moving 'round the sun?
Floating in a vacuum with no purpose, not a one.
Why in the night sky are the lights hung?

Why is life made only for to end?
Why do I do all this waiting then?
Why this frightened part of me is fated to pretend?
Why is life made only for to end?

In the city only for a while.
Here to face the fortune and the bile.
I heard you on the radio, I couldn't help but smile.
In the city only for a while." (Fleet Foxes)

Those questions - why, why, why - they are answered by religion and since you are so in belief of your religion, you cannot recognize that there are more logical answers to these questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#226
Jun 19, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby - your faith is so wonderful - I feel like such a jerk when I keep trying to yank it out from under you. I can only keep honestly having this conversation because I have faith that YOUR faith will not be wavered by anything I say. I'm the Devil, Bob, don't get to believing me. I often wish I could stop believing what I say, but I can't.
Let's pretend for a second that I am correct. Suppose you spend your life faithfully following God's rules - if you were any good at it, you probably turned out to be a responsible, well-behaved gentleman - there's no loser there, right? Suppose you died and when you did, you ceased to exist - that is what I believe happens to all people and animals, even plants and planets. Nothing lost - that is true - no betrayal, no anger at being mislead, no worries about your soul's future - your emotions will be gone. Why not be faithful to God? I certainly seems to make you very happy. I just disagree that it is necessary to reach your ultimate result: dead and decaying, just as I will without any faith.
I think the world and the universe and everything else is just awesome too! I get annoyed hearing God get all the credit - this stuff just happens and God's magic seems like a reasonable explaination for it. I don't have a better one - but that doesn't mean that there isn't a better one. Explaining nature in terms that the population can understand is why any myth originated.
"Why in the night sky are the lights hung?
Why is the Earth moving 'round the sun?
Floating in a vacuum with no purpose, not a one.
Why in the night sky are the lights hung?
Why is life made only for to end?
Why do I do all this waiting then?
Why this frightened part of me is fated to pretend?
Why is life made only for to end?
In the city only for a while.
Here to face the fortune and the bile.
I heard you on the radio, I couldn't help but smile.
In the city only for a while." (Fleet Foxes)
Those questions - why, why, why - they are answered by religion and since you are so in belief of your religion, you cannot recognize that there are more logical answers to these questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
I have a peace in my life that surpasses understanding. I do not have as many of those unanswered questions. We both live in the same world with similar problems, but I doubt that either of us look forward to dying.

I am not in belief of religion as you seem the think. Lots of people practice religion without knowing it. They do not walk under a ladder, they have daily routines that they feel must be preformed or something bad will happen. They might even have lucky numbers they use for lotto tickets. Everyone is waiting for that something in life that will please them to come along, it helps them to get through life.

That stuff is an outward religion, a mystical religion. Now, many christians also follow a similar pattern, but those things never satisfy. A pure religion is a relationship.

So lets look at relationships for a moment. Have you ever been married? I know you have family members, so surely you have relationships with others. We both should know how hard that can be to get along all the time. True love treats others, not according to what they deserve but by what they need even tough love. That is the kind of relationship we can have with God. He gives us what we do not deserve and if we truly love him we try to please him. I also have a wonderful relationship with my wife, I would die for her. That is exactly what Jesus has done for us.

Love is something lots of people never experience. I have found that those who need love the most are the most difficult to love. So, my point is that people either love the things of the world which only satisfies for a short time. My love relationship with my wife will last as long as I live because I have chosen to love her, not because I have to, I love her unconditionally, the way God loves us.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#227
Jun 19, 2013
 
God loves us unconditionally but does not save us unconditionally. Sometimes we love people with an undying love and they still reject us and a relationship is not possible.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

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#228
Jun 19, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you say that society suggests that envy and jealousy are excellent motivators? They both motivate people to be superior over another - they able people to disregard the method of achievement so long as the goal is met.
Ah yes- the ends justify the means. Society does teach and suggest that envy and jealousy are good motivators. But is that really true?

Do you know what Alexander the Great did after conquering the world? Drank himself to death-nothing left to accomplish. Why do millionaires and billionaires try to make more money? Because it isn't enough.

Ever heard of Kevin Nash? He's a former basketball player and pro wrestler. He was good with money. Millionaire times over. Yet he cannot sleep at night-because he worries about money.

Envy, jealousy, fear can all be good motivators- but for how long? Many "Christians" are motivated by fear-fear that God will cast them into hell if they don't do enough.

Do you know what the greatest motivator is? Love. Love will motivate you to do more than envy, greed, jealousy, fear, obedience, or any other thing will.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

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#229
Jun 19, 2013
 
Bobby gives great answers.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#230
Jun 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Love is something lots of people never experience. I have found that those who need love the most are the most difficult to love. So, my point is that people either love the things of the world which only satisfies for a short time. My love relationship with my wife will last as long as I live because I have chosen to love her, not because I have to, I love her unconditionally, the way God loves us.
I disagree - everyone experiences love, so long as their brain is able to produce that emotion, everyone loves something. Everyone pursues happiness and whatever it is that they love. Even Kevin Nash wouldn't be worried so much about money if he didn't love money. His goal must be to acquire more money because it will make him more happy. But we both know that money will never return love, so his "relationship" with the thing he loves will never ever be satisfied - he will continue to pursue, but the results will never be enough. His worry is an example of anxiety produced because his life is in some way out of balance. To overcome the anxiety, he would need to bring balance to his life by re-evaluating his relationship with money.

A more determining factor would be: Who do you love? What do you love?

God is a good answer - family - animals - music - church - community - children - art - sports - books - video games - internet. These are good answers because they are able to return the love that you invest in them. Even inanimate things like games and TV communicate emotions, including love, to the person who interacts with it - the emotions of PEOPLE are expressed through items of communication like paintings or DVDs. If a person loves these things, it will likely be a satisfying relationship since their love is able to be returned by the thing or person they love - bringing balance.

Some bad answers would be: money - drugs - crime - solitude - power - self - gambling - control - commerce - politics. These "loves" will never return your love, quite the opposite: they will betray your love and your love will prevent you from recognizing it. In the case of solitude and self - if you give yourself love and then return it to yourself, you've not really accomplished the "love" experience. If you are investing love in any of these examples - you will experience anxiety instead because your love will be un-balanced.

OK - I listed God as a good investment of love and for believers, that is true - for me, God is a bad answer. You can invest love in God and feel his love in return, yes? It is only because you believe it to be true that you can feel love from God - since I know that God cannot love you when he doesn't exist, I cannot feel his love. I once did until I realized that I was loving myself and the feelings of God's love were exposed to me as an illusion. Now, I can't invest love into God, since I know that my efforts are in vain and I'm passionate about using them towards some purpose with goals that are achievable.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#231
Jun 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
God loves us unconditionally but does not save us unconditionally. Sometimes we love people with an undying love and they still reject us and a relationship is not possible.
Your relationship would be un-balanced if you are contributing love and receiving none in return. Those people that are hardest to love are the ones who need the most love - exactly! If a person is unable to love something that will return their love, they are in a state of turmoil and dis-satisfaction, making them less likely to invest love in anyone since their experience is to have their love betrayed. Those people need to be encouraged to pursue relationships with someone or something who will satisfy their emotional needs by having an exchange of emotions - God is a nice option if that person believes in God - if there is no belief, God will also contribute to anxiety produced by an un-balanced life.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#232
Jun 20, 2013
 
In the bible, there are four kinds of love translated from the greek text.

Agape, philia, storge, and eros.

Agape is unconditional love, God for mankind

Philia is similar to Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, or love that exists between close friends.

Storge is love that grows between family members.

Then there is "eros" which is a special intimate love between just two people for life.

Then there is a love for other things which usually has more to do with a love for earthly things or maybe just a passion for success.

I once had a passion for building houses and growing my wealth. I thoroughly enjoyed the hard work and to this day I am glad I did that-I am now retired.

Last week I was at my cousins farm, the old family farm. While I was there he wanted me to see his new truck, it was worth over $50,000. He spent 20 minutes explaining every feature. I really was not very interested but I complimented it anyway.

You see he has 11 operating oil wells on his property and he is enjoying his success- he is not a christian. These days I find myself less and less interested in the things of the world. I am far more interested and motivated by other things.

My Son and his wife had a 7 year old foster child in their care for most of a year, she was returned to her mother recently, we all miss her very much-to me those are things with lasting value. My wife and I were the only authorized/background tested family members who could help care for her. We still love her like our own. Being a christian is about giving away our lives in the service of God investing in the kingdom, the rewards in this life are great also!
pearl

West Jordan, UT

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#233
Jun 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
When you look at the awesomeness of the universe, what do you see? I see the power of a creator and that creator can give people new life. At least if I am wrong and the bible is a lie, I lose nothing.
This post exposes one of the most corrupt issues regarding Christianity. The "if I'm wrong, no harm, no foul" claim. Never taking into regard, all the lost wisdom, the destruction of countless cultures due to the Christian agenda. It's one of the most offensive claims a Christian could make and yet Christians are completely oblivious to this.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#234
Jun 20, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>This post exposes one of the most corrupt issues regarding Christianity. The "if I'm wrong, no harm, no foul" claim. Never taking into regard, all the lost wisdom, the destruction of countless cultures due to the Christian agenda. It's one of the most offensive claims a Christian could make and yet Christians are completely oblivious to this.
http://scholarscorner.com/apologia/deathtoll....
pearl

West Jordan, UT

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#236
Jun 20, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Don't be foolish I'm not referring to your wars, that's a whole other topic. I'm talking about your expansion, your constant infringement on other cultures, your forced assimilation. Lest we forget what Christians did to the native population of this land. And you're doing it again in Africa right now. You claim dominion over everything on this planet, then claim it's no big deal to you if you are wrong, that it is no loss for you, because it doesn't affect you personally. But your Christianity has had far reaching consequences for the entire earth. And now you admit you could be wrong and it's no big deal? You have demonstrated a complete lack of perspective and an "it's all about me attitude"
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#237
Jun 20, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>This post exposes one of the most corrupt issues regarding Christianity. The "if I'm wrong, no harm, no foul" claim. Never taking into regard, all the lost wisdom, the destruction of countless cultures due to the Christian agenda. It's one of the most offensive claims a Christian could make and yet Christians are completely oblivious to this.
C. S. Lewis :

Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A dolphin wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.(Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, "Hope")
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

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#238
Jun 20, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>Don't be foolish I'm not referring to your wars, that's a whole other topic. I'm talking about your expansion, your constant infringement on other cultures, your forced assimilation. Lest we forget what Christians did to the native population of this land. And you're doing it again in Africa right now. You claim dominion over everything on this planet, then claim it's no big deal to you if you are wrong, that it is no loss for you, because it doesn't affect you personally. But your Christianity has had far reaching consequences for the entire earth. And now you admit you could be wrong and it's no big deal? You have demonstrated a complete lack of perspective and an "it's all about me attitude"
This sounds very much like anti-colonialism. Yeah, those bad old Christians, bad old capitalists, bringing people upward instead of leaving them behind in the stone age. Helping lifespans double in a short amount of time. Improved standards of living across the globe. Bringing information and technology into the darkest parts of the globe.

Maybe you like Islam better. The people of the middle east were the leading mathematicians and scientists until Islam came along. They've been stuck in 890 AD or so ever since.

Don't like manifest destiny? Blame Andrew Jackson and John L. O'Sullivan.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#239
Jun 21, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
C. S. Lewis :
Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A dolphin wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.(Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, "Hope")
That is a good book...

I like cs Lewis but did you know that he was a democrat?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#240
Jun 21, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
That is a good book...
I like cs Lewis but did you know that he was a democrat?
Although he remained a lukewarm Anglican, His and GK Chesterton writings have brought more converts to the Catholic Church from the Pastoral and Theological level, people who tend to read a lot of theology books, than any other men in the 20th Century.

Both were converted Atheists.

He was an Englishman. Democrat?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#241
Jun 21, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Although he remained a lukewarm Anglican, His and GK Chesterton writings have brought more converts to the Catholic Church from the Pastoral and Theological level, people who tend to read a lot of theology books, than any other men in the 20th Century.
Both were converted Atheists.
He was an Englishman. Democrat?
What are unbelievers-those outside of Christ?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#242
Jun 21, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
What are unbelievers-those outside of Christ?
Unbeliever? Why respond to a post with a question that doesn't make sense.

I am unbeliever of most things you post.

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