Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#201 Jun 14, 2013
Dave P wrote:
*We cry about "teenage pregnancy". Why do we think it happens? Societal change is the answer. God designed us for reasons. Sexual urges are strong. Why do we hit puberty at around 12-13? Even as late as 100 years ago "young marriage" wasn't uncommon. Today-you have to wait until after high school (18); wait after college (22-26,27); get settled into a career (mid-thirties or later).
We have strong sexual desires young; society basically forces people either to-put off those desires for success; or to commit fornication and try to prevent pregnancy for years while doing such fornication.
If two high school students today considered marriage, we'd jump to the ceiling!
I'm going to hold back my response to "teen pregnancy" since it is a topic very personal to me. If you've done any math since we began talking, you may have realized that I am a VERY young grandmother and it has everything to do with teen pregnancy.
This is an important topic to me and so, when I collect my thoughts about it, I think I will start a new discussion concerning this topic especially.
If you want to pre-judge me: consider that my family is passionate about opposing abortion. We have sinned in many ways, but killing people was not one.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#202 Jun 14, 2013
Bobby wrote:
I had my will drawn up saying that my kids could not have their inheritance until they turned 30. Of course I am still alive and the kids are past 30. My point is that most of us were still somewhat immature even at 30 or even later. Wisdom usually comes with age. When we experience mistakes, hopefully we learn from them. This is how most parents are. we don't want our kids to make the same mistakes we have. Sometimes there is no replacement for experience. Good parents will always want the best for their kids and we make a lot of mistakes along the way because each child is different. Where disciple works with one, it drives the other away. We should try to know our child and his or her bent (leanings) and work from there. Kids/people who are the hardest to love are the ones who need love the most.
This was a realistic and wise way to treat your estate. I have seen more than one inheritance squandered. However, I live in a house that my husband inherited, and so, I can speak from experience about how the efforts of past relatives have improved my life. I have strong opinions about inheritance - unpopular ones - because the idea supports "unfairness" and you might have heard that I am a big fan of being fair.

You are correct that the most unlovable people need the most love. Love and support are human NEEDS and when a person's needs are not met, it creates un-balance within that person's life.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#203 Jun 14, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you want to live in a country or even a city where there is no rule of law? That would result in a state of lawlessness. There must be boundaries to protect the rights of everyone. The bible is designed sorta like that but it was God who set the boundaries not man.
When a citizen breaks a law that is on the books (legal contract) they are subject to punishment. So you see, man's government is patterned similar to the government of God for his people. The difference is law breakers are refereed to as sinners.
Worldly law does not tolerate bank robbers and the bank robbers can holler-that's not fair but they still go to jail. So there is intolerance at all levels even in the kingdom of God.
You are misunderstanding my point - I do agree that laws should be in place to force members of society to act within certain boundaries. I am just saying: the laws listed in the Bible are not necessarily serving the community - they are guidelines for serving God.

The laws that I support are laws of ETHICS. In many ways, Christianity and Ethics go right along together - but not always. Our governmental laws support ethics even more often, however, they are not necessarily ethical either. Ethics supports fairness and, again, I think that fairness is the key to peace - inner peace and societal peace.

Imagine that you find yourself in the midst of a natural disaster - Hurricane Katrina, for example - there is no law enforcement and so, temporarily, people are allowed to run a-muck as they please. Why would anyone follow any laws if they are not forced?

(answer: they will follow the laws that they actually support and they will ignore all others)
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#204 Jun 14, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Those that DO rank over torture are: honor your parents (what if your parents are horrible people?), do not use God's name in vain (who does this harm?), do not covet other's property (what? envy is natural), don't work on Sunday (unless your JOB is to lead church), and no graven images (stop praying to the money tree, yeah, right!).
Other commandments are ones I simply agree are good advice for everyone: no lying and don't cheat on your spouse.
I know there are many more sins listed than the 10 commandments, but those were designated as the most important ones to abide by, yes? Mental abuse is not specifically discouraged in the Bible, but is a horrible activity that exists all around us. Intolerance is a huge issue today, but the Bible does not support a change in societal standards, and through Christianity, intolerance is supported.
Tell me I'm wrong - I wish to be wrong.
Ok you're wrong.:)

Do not use God's name in vain- who does this? Almost everyone. Ever hear anyone spit out "G.D."? Covetousness? I would define that one in this way- hating or despising someone because of what they have; or wanting EXACTLY what someone else has. Instead of getting a car like Mike's, you take Mike's car.

Don't work on Sunday? The commandment is to honor the Sabbath. Sunday sis not the sabbath- Saturday is the sabbath- and most Christians believe the sabbath was a type, a shadow that is fulfilled and not binding now. I've had to work on Sunday a few times now. Not a big deal-do what I do on Sunday morning, go to work Sunday afternoon.

Graven images-that would be statues, pictures, and the like. Don't worship Buddha at the Chinese restaurant, or the statues of Mary and other such things.

You mentioned profiting off of other people. The Bible is full of examples condemning this behavior. John the Baptist told people to quit doing such things. The OT prophets warned greatly about that. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

Mental abuse- I believe is covered by scriptures talking about our behavior and attitude toward others. Christianity isn't about making outward shows and outward deeds; the motives and intents of the heart are known by God and judged as well. Mental abuse is just as wrong as physical abuse. Harder for man to see, but God sees all.

Intolerance is a huge issue today, but the Bible does not support a change in societal standards, and through Christianity, intolerance is supported.

*ASM, I totally disagree here. The Bible is a very tolerant book. Some people are intolerant, and they present Biblical truths in an intolerant manner. God doesn't hate "fags and queers" like the Westboro Baptist crew claims.(I HATE those terms BTW.)

The Bible has been a driving force in societal changes. Women, slaves, races, levels of prosperity-the Bible has helped changed attitudes for the better for all these things. Galatians 3 is a good passage to read.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#205 Jun 14, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm going to hold back my response to "teen pregnancy" since it is a topic very personal to me. If you've done any math since we began talking, you may have realized that I am a VERY young grandmother and it has everything to do with teen pregnancy.
This is an important topic to me and so, when I collect my thoughts about it, I think I will start a new discussion concerning this topic especially.
If you want to pre-judge me: consider that my family is passionate about opposing abortion. We have sinned in many ways, but killing people was not one.
I have no reason or desire to pre-judge you. The reason I even mentioned it is because I have known several church goers who have children or grandchildren who got pregnant in their teens. Many do judge-both the kids and the parents.

It's easy to play the blame game; it's harder to show love, mercy, and grace. And it's easier to destroy someone's character than it is to actually figure out why such things happen.

Children are a gift from God. Mary was only a teenager when she had Jesus in most people's opinions.

No judging from me ASM. Being a young grandma means you can be the cool and active grandma when the grandchild gets older. Use your situation for good and for family.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#206 Jun 15, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
You are misunderstanding my point - I do agree that laws should be in place to force members of society to act within certain boundaries. I am just saying: the laws listed in the Bible are not necessarily serving the community - they are guidelines for serving God.
The laws that I support are laws of ETHICS. In many ways, Christianity and Ethics go right along together - but not always. Our governmental laws support ethics even more often, however, they are not necessarily ethical either. Ethics supports fairness and, again, I think that fairness is the key to peace - inner peace and societal peace.
Imagine that you find yourself in the midst of a natural disaster - Hurricane Katrina, for example - there is no law enforcement and so, temporarily, people are allowed to run a-muck as they please. Why would anyone follow any laws if they are not forced?
(answer: they will follow the laws that they actually support and they will ignore all others)
The bible is a book with an upper story and a lower story. The Old Testament is designed to reveal the nature of sin and it's consequences. The new testament is designed to give us an answer to the problems created by sin. "Gal 3:24Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith".

What this means is that our hearts/desires are changed so that we can learn to walk in peace with God and man.

The sad part is that not all people will allow the word of God to change their hearts/desires. Men/humans have the tendency to follow after their own desires. We are all like children who need adult supervision/protection.

It has been said that our constitution was designed/patterned from biblical principles which is probably why you see christianity and ethics closely related.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#207 Jun 15, 2013
Dave: Do not use God's name in vain- who does this? Almost everyone. Ever hear anyone spit out "G.D."?

ASM: Oh, I didn't mean that people don't do this, I meant that it does not harm people when people do this. Someone once told me: G.D. is the most offensive phrase that exists! Those who use the words obviously have no problem dis-honoring God - but those who HEAR it are very likely to be quite offended by it. It's just a rude, hurtful thing to say and I agree, it is common to hear it said.

I'll tell you what else is common to hear: Oh My God! Jesus! Jesus H. Christ! Jesus H. Christ on a Popsicle Stick! God forbid! For God's sake! Or just plain: GOD!!!

I hear these words from the mouths of Christians who do not see anything wrong with using these phrases - they are ordinary phrases. I assess, however, that they each actually take the Lord's name in vain - and ironically, this is a commandment that I obey.

Since I want Christians to tolerate my (non) religious beliefs, I am careful not to deliberately offend Christians by dishonoring their God. It's just rude.

I once said, "Oh, My Word!" in front of a co-worker who laughed and asked what that meant. I say: What? I can't even use my own words in vain? It's my substitution for OMG - something I see and hear 10 times daily.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#208 Jun 15, 2013
Dave: Covetousness? I would define that one in this way- hating or despising someone because of what they have; or wanting EXACTLY what someone else has. Instead of getting a car like Mike's, you take Mike's car.

ASM: That's theft.(see: thou shalt not steal)

I guess I don't properly understand this commandment. I understood it to mean that you become jealous of what others have - becoming bitter because you want something you don't or can't have.

Refer me, Mr. Bible Verse - where else in the Bible is coveting addressed?

Dave: Don't work on Sunday? The commandment is to honor the Sabbath. Sunday is not the sabbath- Saturday is the sabbath- and most Christians believe the sabbath was a type, a shadow that is fulfilled and not binding now. I've had to work on Sunday a few times now. Not a big deal-do what I do on Sunday morning, go to work Sunday afternoon.

AH - even if it is a pastor's JOB to preach on Sunday (or the Sabbath), still he would be honoring the Sabbath because HIS job specifically honors God, yes?

I view the Sabbath this way: on the 7th day (that would be Saturday) God rested and that would be the day that God designates to rest your body and exercise your mind by studying and praising God.

Now, society has warped this idea so that following these Biblical guidelines are more than just a little difficult. Somewhere throughout history, it just seemed better to have Sabbath on Sunday, and honestly, why would it matter - still one day weekly is set aside for worship, right?

It was not that many years ago that people took this commandment MUCH more seriously. As a youth, I remember when the "blue law" was lifted that ALLOWED businesses to open on Sunday - I remember when the only places open on Sunday were churches and gas stations.

It was capitalism - a constant pursuit of profit - that decided this commandment could easily be ignored. I think that it is terrible when Christians are required by their jobs to work during their designated time of worship. I often work on Sunday, but my place of employment is careful to at least allow Sunday mornings available for folks to go to church. It is a compromise that Christians have made, but I would think God probably doesn't approve.

This is a case of sweeping God's message under the rug. It has always seemed conflicting to me that some insignificant parts of the Bible are treated with great respect and reverence and others that do not suit our lifestyle are overlooked.

Do you really set aside Saturday for not working? Or - if your job involves honoring God, couldn't you just work constantly and God would be extra happy?

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#210 Jun 15, 2013
Dave: Graven images-that would be statues, pictures, and the like. Don't worship Buddha at the Chinese restaurant, or the statues of Mary and other such things.

ASM: Who does this? I guess it could apply to people long ago who actually DID do this - but this seems to be the same as: worship no other god than GOD.

Dave: You mentioned profiting off of other people. The Bible is full of examples condemning this behavior. John the Baptist told people to quit doing such things. The OT prophets warned greatly about that. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

ASM: Please refer me to these verses - I'm interested to know what the Bible says about this. I will slightly disagree that it is not the love of money, but money itself that is the root of much evil.

Dave: Mental abuse- I believe is covered by scriptures talking about our behavior and attitude toward others. Christianity isn't about making outward shows and outward deeds; the motives and intents of the heart are known by God and judged as well. Mental abuse is just as wrong as physical abuse. Harder for man to see, but God sees all.

ASM: What about the person who secretly endures abuse while silently praying to be delivered, only to face more years of abuse?

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#211 Jun 15, 2013
Dave: The Bible is a very tolerant book. Some people are intolerant, and they present Biblical truths in an intolerant manner. God doesn't hate "fags and queers" like the Westboro Baptist crew claims.(I HATE those terms BTW.)

ASM: I try not to include the antics of some zealous mobs who picket funerals and bomb abortion clinics as associated with Christianity - even when they claim to be. YES - those groups are intolerant and they make the rest of you look bad.

I will focus on average Christians, the majority, who exercise good sense and manners. When Topix conversations in other forums turned to Atheist vs. Christian, there was always bickering about intolerance. Each side claims the other is intolerant and refutes the opinion of the other that THEY are intolerant. It's a stale mate. It's a conversation ender.

You all have been the most tolerant and polite Christians I have engaged in religious conversation. I'm not used to having my ideas regarded with any sort of respect - I'm easily written off as a nutball. Stupid me, too dumb to believe that God is real, no wonder my ideas are whack. In this way, Christians have been intolerant of my ideas - however, by hearing me out, Christians have now been very tolerant towards my ideas.

I am a pretty tolerant Atheist, I'm noticing, but I guess I SHOULD be intolerant towards your view since my non-belief in God undermines all that we have discussed. A true Atheist could not look past this to tolerate Christian notions. Hmm.

Perhaps tolerance or intolerance should be placed on the individual, rather than generalized.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#212 Jun 15, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
The bible is a book with an upper story and a lower story. The Old Testament is designed to reveal the nature of sin and it's consequences. The new testament is designed to give us an answer to the problems created by sin. "Gal 3:24Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith".

What this means is that our hearts/desires are changed so that we can learn to walk in peace with God and man.

The sad part is that not all people will allow the word of God to change their hearts/desires. Men/humans have the tendency to follow after their own desires. We are all like children who need adult supervision/protection.

It has been said that our constitution was designed/patterned from biblical principles which is probably why you see christianity and ethics closely related.
OK - I had not thought of the Bible in that way, but I see what you are saying. The OT lays out the laws and the NT tells how you can redeem yourself even if you have already broken those laws. The NT gives hope to the sinner, which is mostly everyone, since it is nearly impossible to follow all the laws in the Bible.

This is one way that Church serves the community - it gives hope. Jesus = hope. How can I argue against a means to supply hope to the hopeless? Suppose the hope is based on falsehoods - by the time anyone finds out for sure, they will be dead and the hope will have served it's purpose.

But this only supports my idea that Christianity is a useful tool. A tool that works, but is dependent on faith. With no faith, the tool is broken. So, you see that Jesus provides no hope for ME because I lack faith.

But then, I am not without hope - my hope is to continue to survive THIS life and to fulfill the maximum amount of potential that is available for the time that I have. I don't feel the need to follow the Bible laws - I am not regretful that I am a sinner. Sometimes sinning is necessary to reach my goals - I determine what is right and wrong by using my own judgement.

If Hell is real, I am deserving of it - the Bible is clear about that. I am so convinced that Hell is not real that I am willing to risk the life of my eternal soul to prove my point.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#213 Jun 15, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
OK - I had not thought of the Bible in that way, but I see what you are saying. The OT lays out the laws and the NT tells how you can redeem yourself even if you have already broken those laws. The NT gives hope to the sinner, which is mostly everyone, since it is nearly impossible to follow all the laws in the Bible.
This is one way that Church serves the community - it gives hope. Jesus = hope. How can I argue against a means to supply hope to the hopeless? Suppose the hope is based on falsehoods - by the time anyone finds out for sure, they will be dead and the hope will have served it's purpose.
But this only supports my idea that Christianity is a useful tool. A tool that works, but is dependent on faith. With no faith, the tool is broken. So, you see that Jesus provides no hope for ME because I lack faith.
But then, I am not without hope - my hope is to continue to survive THIS life and to fulfill the maximum amount of potential that is available for the time that I have. I don't feel the need to follow the Bible laws - I am not regretful that I am a sinner. Sometimes sinning is necessary to reach my goals - I determine what is right and wrong by using my own judgement.
If Hell is real, I am deserving of it - the Bible is clear about that. I am so convinced that Hell is not real that I am willing to risk the life of my eternal soul to prove my point.
Your last sentence sounds like someone who is on an airplane that has lost it's power and destined to crash and does not care if he lives or dies. My father-in-law who served in ww2 once told me that everyone will struggle for that last breath and try everything in his power to stay alive. I was there to see his last breath-it's true.

Jesus said:“Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. It is not as the world gives that I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, and do not let it be afraid.”.

And the old testament says: "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord,“plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".

Don't you think that it would be nice to have future beyond this life?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#214 Jun 16, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
I once said, "Oh, My Word!" in front of a co-worker who laughed and asked what that meant. I say: What? I can't even use my own words in vain? It's my substitution for OMG - something I see and hear 10 times daily.
I like your attitude about this idea. Wish more had it-including Christians.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#215 Jun 16, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
Refer me, Mr. Bible Verse - where else in the Bible is coveting addressed?
1 Corinthians 6:10- covetous shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.
1 Cor. 5:11 says Christians shouldn't associate with other Christians who are covetous.
In Mark 7:22 Jesus says covetousness defiles a person.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#216 Jun 16, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
AH - even if it is a pastor's JOB to preach on Sunday (or the Sabbath), still he would be honoring the Sabbath because HIS job specifically honors God, yes?
I view the Sabbath this way: on the 7th day (that would be Saturday) God rested and that would be the day that God designates to rest your body and exercise your mind by studying and praising God.

Somewhere throughout history, it just seemed better to have Sabbath on Sunday, and honestly, why would it matter - still one day weekly is set aside for worship, right?
It was not that many years ago that people took this commandment MUCH more seriously. As a youth, I remember when the "blue law" was lifted that ALLOWED businesses to open on Sunday - I remember when the only places open on Sunday were churches and gas stations.
It was capitalism - a constant pursuit of profit - that decided this commandment could easily be ignored. I think that it is terrible when Christians are required by their jobs to work during their designated time of worship. I often work on Sunday, but my place of employment is careful to at least allow Sunday mornings available for folks to go to church. It is a compromise that Christians have made, but I would think God probably doesn't approve.
This is a case of sweeping God's message under the rug. It has always seemed conflicting to me that some insignificant parts of the Bible are treated with great respect and reverence and others that do not suit our lifestyle are overlooked.
Do you really set aside Saturday for not working? Or - if your job involves honoring God, couldn't you just work constantly and God would be extra happy?
This is a big discussion here. I'll work on this one later.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#217 Jun 17, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Your last sentence sounds like someone who is on an airplane that has lost it's power and destined to crash and does not care if he lives or dies. My father-in-law who served in ww2 once told me that everyone will struggle for that last breath and try everything in his power to stay alive. I was there to see his last breath-it's true.
Jesus said:“Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. It is not as the world gives that I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, and do not let it be afraid.”.
And the old testament says: "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord,“plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".
Don't you think that it would be nice to have future beyond this life?
Yes, it would be nice to have another life after this one. It would be nice to get to be with all the people I loved who are dead. It would be nice to avoid never-ending suffering. It would be nice, nice, nice.

I know, Bobby, that when my brain ceases to function that all the knowledge, memories, influences, cares, and personality that is me will cease to exist. The only way that any of that lives on is through the communications that I leave behind - my writings, my pictures, the memories that others have of me - I would still exist until all of those things are gone and then it will be as if I never existed. And I won't care - because I won't exist.

You think that the alternative to Heaven is Hell. I believe it is nothing. You say my position is sad, but I say: it is honest even if you are sad about it. I am not sad - I accept that my life will be over whenever it's over and it will be no different for you than for me. How can you think that something biologically different would happen when you die than when I die just because we had different thoughts? Our bodies are the same.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#218 Jun 17, 2013
Oh, yes, also FaceBook - you can live forever on FB. I have a FB friend who died 2 years ago and STILL, her profile pops up for me to play Farmville with her. It makes me happy and sad to see it - how long before they de-activate idle accounts? I imagine her family cannot face the pain that would come with deleting her account.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#219 Jun 17, 2013
1 Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

OK - I'll agree with this one - certainly you can't be a sinner and still get to Heaven - UNLESS Jesus forgives you - Still, it's God's Heaven and he gets to decide who gets in. Sounds fair to me.

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

No. Now, ask yourself, WWJD? He would eat with such people! He would associate with them - he would accept them as sinners and redeem them through their confessions and belief that he is God. That's why Jesus was SO good - he didn't mind getting his hands dirty. He would FIND the people most in need of his salvation so that he might SAVE them because he LOVED them, even if they were awful.

Mark 7
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

OK, then, I guess I can agree with this one - man truly has some despicable behaviors and certainly they are defiled by them.

And so - coveting is sinful - however, what is the difference between coveting and experiencing jealousy? It seems the same to me. Evil intent?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#220 Jun 17, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
No. Now, ask yourself, WWJD? He would eat with such people! He would associate with them - he would accept them as sinners and redeem them through their confessions and belief that he is God. That's why Jesus was SO good - he didn't mind getting his hands dirty. He would FIND the people most in need of his salvation so that he might SAVE them because he LOVED them, even if they were awful.
ASM, you miss the important point here. Your attitude in your response is right. But, the verses I quoted here are dealing with "anyone who claims to be a brother or sister". He had already redeemed them. They were rotten to the core, and He ate with them. Then they went and acted like they had before they had been redeemed. Paul is telling the church not to associate with "brothers" acting like that. They are to be warned, and if they don't listen, then put out of the church. But even then, the point for them was to repent and come back, not hate or spite.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#221 Jun 17, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
And so - coveting is sinful - however, what is the difference between coveting and experiencing jealousy? It seems the same to me. Evil intent?
Envy desires to deprive someone else of what they have; jealousy wants the same thing for itself. Another example-envy (covet) wants what someone else has; jealousy fears losing what it has to someone they feel is superior to them.

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