Prove That God Is REAL

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Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#1 Jun 4, 2013
As a child and young adult, I was a faithful Christian and today I am an Atheist because I no longer believe the Bible and the Christian teachings. I re-evaluated my religion when I noticed contradictions in the Bible itself as well as in theory and I'd like to discuss these contradictions. Christian ideas also conflict with logic and ethics sometimes - when I have discussed these conflicts before now, I was never satisfied with the Christian answers and so I would like to discuss those as well.

I'll make a vague list of issues and we can address them in depth individually. Take your time and tell me everything about them that you think I ought to know.

1-Does God support love or war? How can he support both?

2-How can God ask us to love and support our neighbors while discluding gay people?

3-Is God magic? Is magic real?

4-Why should you take some of the Bible literally and some of it in theory only?

5-Is God in favor or against money and materialism?

6-Can a miracle be considered true?

7-The world is 6000 years old? W-W-What?!!

8-Does the Bible support drinking alcoholic beverages?

9-How can the church support marriage AND divorce?

10-Isn't there a vicious cycle of sinning and being forgiven that actually promotes sinning?

11-How can we disregard the slavery and masculine domination in the Bible?

12-If no one knows when Jesus is returning, why do people keep proclaiming to know?

13-How can so many churches claim the same faith while being so different?

14-Why would God allow children and innocents to suffer?

15-Why does God allow Satan to exist?

I could go on and on, but those are some that came to mind. These are questions that young adults may want answers to right now, in your church. If you don't find some satisfactory answers, they could turn out like me....
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#2 Jun 4, 2013
Lot there Steve. Unfortunately you'll probably even get some contradictory answers on many of these. Interesting ideas though, I will try to take on a few of them shortly.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#3 Jun 4, 2013
I think you're failing to recognize the sovereignty of His will and purposes and if you'd filter back through those, according to Scripture, you may find some false premises in the points.
1. Both. His nature is love, and because of His justice, wars happen, and He often used the enemy of Israel to inflict upon them, but also not holding their enemies guiltless. The only question we need to understand is who is behind the wars today. I don't think it's God, but He can use all things for His purposes.
2. God created an economy of natural order and principles. Rebellion against His creation is never condoned by Him - is it?
3. There is a big difference between magic and the supernatural and miracles.
4. Because some things are said to be very literal and some things are obviously figurative. It's making one into the other that confuses the issues.
5. What did Y'shua teach? And what is the economic model implied by Leviticus? The truth, the gospel, can exist in more than on economic system of men.'Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, and what is Gods, unto God.' Again - some thoughtful applications to His word are needed.
6. Yes.
7.:-) There are two creation accounts in Genesis. Can both be true? Or is one a lie and the other one true? Look at the conversation between God and Job. Do you believe Genesis 1:1? That's the pivotal passage.
8. Yes.
9. Because it takes two - how shall they dwell together is they cannot agree? Or one is unfaithful to the other. God hates divorce, but knows there are times it is needful.
10.??? Not that I'm aware of. But then I don't buy into Calvinism.
11. Don't disregard it - take it into context.
12. They proclaim to know because they want others to think they know it all or God speaks personally to them - sort of 'look at me, obviously I'm the greatest!':-)
13. They don't teach the faith that Jesus taught.
14. It's the unrighteousness of men - not the injustice of God. If God didn't allow for a time due to His grace, we'd really be in sorry shape!!!
15. Good one. I think it's to see who is going to believe/disbelieve Him and who is going to follow Satan vs who is going to follow what He said is right and true and good.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#4 Jun 4, 2013
I think #12 is easy. Some people want to attract a following, show everyone how smart they are, get attention, etc. Pretty presumptuous to say that you know something everyone else-even Jesus-doesn't know.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#5 Jun 4, 2013
ASM- 8-Does the Bible support drinking alcoholic beverages?

BW- 8. Yes.

Dave- 8. Yes-in moderation. Drunkenness is sin.

ASM- 12-If no one knows when Jesus is returning, why do people keep proclaiming to know?

BW-12. They proclaim to know because they want others to think they know it all or God speaks personally to them - sort of 'look at me, obviously I'm the greatest!':-)

Dave-so far 2 answers, 2 almost 100% agreement.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#6 Jun 4, 2013
I can add my thoughts as well and there are good biblical based answers.

However in my experience most who ask the questions don't really want answers. Their goal is to discredit God and to try stump believers.

If we go to atheist web sites we can find the same types of questions and in reality most if not all of them are not really interested in the answers. I have had dozens of these encounters. That being said, I hope ASM is sincere.

Faith cannot be taught. It reminds me of doubting Thomas. He walked with the Lord, knowing him personally and still would not believe that Jesus was risen from the grave. He had to see the nail prints and touch the hole in Jesus side before he would believe. Jesus said more blessed are those who believe without having seen.

Faith is a substance of reality-things not yet seen and the evidence of things hoped for. Each of us can live for a while on other peoples faith but it is necessary that we obtain our own faith. It cannot be bought or sold but when the seeds of truth concerning the cross are planted some will receive it while the tares hear the same message and are destined to be only weeds in God's garden.

FAITH
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#7 Jun 4, 2013
An atheist farmer must have faith. He sees the season of planting time coming and he plows the fields and plants his seed, not knowing if it will rain. He must have faith but it is based on the fact that God brings rain in the proper season. But when the drought comes he looses his crop. By faith he replants each year. He has witnessed the weather cycles and exercises his faith and hope.

Our faith in God often comes when we see his wonderful creation all around us and know that man did not have anything to do with this.

Everyone has faith in something. We even get in our cars trusting that it will get us where we are going until we forget to refuel it.

William

Columbus, GA

#8 Jun 4, 2013
Prove that God is real? Easy.

Auburn won the BCS National Championship in 2010.

Case closed.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#9 Jun 4, 2013
OK - it looks like #12 was easily answered and disregarded:

12-If no one knows when Jesus is returning, why do people keep proclaiming to know?

This must be cases of people who think they know something the Bible says they cannot know and so, in general, no Christian or other person should believe anyone who claims to know when Jesus will return. You agree then that SOME representatives of Christianity DO THIS, correct?

Still, in some other posts I have read here, Christians have spoken of predictions of the return of Jesus and warnings from God about the return of Jesus. I have heard about "signs of the Apocalypse" and accusations of who might be the "anti-Christ" - is all of this individual speculation? Why would the Bible list predictions and an end scenario and claim that no one would be able to recognize it or be able to foresee the part where Jesus returns?

How can no one know when Jesus will return? Because the Bible says we won't. I suggest that it's easy to predict when things DON'T happen, the odds are in your favor.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#10 Jun 4, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
I think you're failing to recognize the sovereignty of His will and purposes and if you'd filter back through those, according to Scripture, you may find some false premises in the points.
I appreciate that you answered my questions, but you will have to admit, your answers where simple and brief. I hope that you will "stay tuned" and elaborate on your answers.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#11 Jun 4, 2013
I know exactly what hour he is coming!

If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready,

because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#12 Jun 4, 2013
Dave P wrote:
ASM- 8-Does the Bible support drinking alcoholic beverages? BW- 8. Yes. Dave- 8. Yes-in moderation. Drunkenness is sin.
OK - so the Bible supports drinking alcohol. The Bible does not specify at what age it is appropriate, so continued logic would suggest that the Bible supports children drinking alcohol. Is this something that Christians actually support in modern times or is this a Biblical idea that Christians no longer support since modern knowledge dictates that it is inappropriate for children to drink alcohol? I consider this to be a case of disregarding portions of the Bible that Christians decide are unimportant or wrong.

It is unrealistic to expect people to drink alcohol without becoming intoxicated. We know now that alcohol is a drug that alters a person's thinking and brain functions - if God knows all, he must have known that, even 4000 years ago. We know now that alcohol is an ADDICTIVE drug - certainly God would never support turning over your free will to some substance, be it alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, prescription pain killers, etc. Why would God encourage any person to partake mind altering drugs at all? It is not in anyone's best interest. I think Christians embrace this Biblical idea because they LIKE drinking alcohol.

I understand why people drank alcohol 4000 years ago, it WAS in their best interest since alcohol could be depended on NOT to make a person sick while water likely could. This is an example of how we are to excuse the Bible for giving bad advice because it's such an old book, written in a very different time. At the same time, the Bible's message is supposed to be a timeless one and it is not specific as to what parts are important and what parts are just a reflection of society during Biblical times.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#13 Jun 4, 2013
Bobby wrote:
I can add my thoughts as well and there are good biblical based answers.
However in my experience most who ask the questions don't really want answers. Their goal is to discredit God and to try stump believers.
If we go to atheist web sites we can find the same types of questions and in reality most if not all of them are not really interested in the answers. I have had dozens of these encounters. That being said, I hope ASM is sincere.
Faith cannot be taught. It reminds me of doubting Thomas. He walked with the Lord, knowing him personally and still would not believe that Jesus was risen from the grave. He had to see the nail prints and touch the hole in Jesus side before he would believe. Jesus said more blessed are those who believe without having seen.
Faith is a substance of reality-things not yet seen and the evidence of things hoped for. Each of us can live for a while on other peoples faith but it is necessary that we obtain our own faith. It cannot be bought or sold but when the seeds of truth concerning the cross are planted some will receive it while the tares hear the same message and are destined to be only weeds in God's garden.
FAITH
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
I am interested in hearing your thoughts and I am sincere in my effort to receive real answers. I asked questions such as these years ago and was never given satisfactory answers. It played a great role in my becoming Atheist, so I wouldn't be surprised to find these questions on Atheist websites. My goal is to debate with you, not to discredit God, although my point of view actually will do just that since I view God as a character and someone who does not actually exist. If you are able to convince me that I am wrong, I would gladly embrace Christianity as I have before. I am allowing you an opportunity to minister to me but I will be honest with you about my skepticism. These questions are legitimate conflicts that are regularly disregarded and ignored in the name of Faith in God - if Christianity is true, then there are good answers - I'd like to know them. Why wouldn't God want these issues put to rest? These questions promote Atheism - surely God and Christians oppose that.

Faith can certainly be taught - step one: believe what you are told, step two: don't ask questions. I was taught to have faith in God beginning at birth. It was very difficult for me to view my faith from the viewpoint of one with no faith in God, since - like all children - I accepted what I was taught out of respect to those who taught me. I was a maturing adult before it occurred to me that what I think is true, may not be. It certainly answered a lot of my questions though.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#14 Jun 4, 2013
Bobby wrote:
An atheist farmer must have faith. He sees the season of planting time coming and he plows the fields and plants his seed, not knowing if it will rain. He must have faith but it is based on the fact that God brings rain in the proper season. But when the drought comes he looses his crop. By faith he replants each year. He has witnessed the weather cycles and exercises his faith and hope.
Our faith in God often comes when we see his wonderful creation all around us and know that man did not have anything to do with this.
Everyone has faith in something. We even get in our cars trusting that it will get us where we are going until we forget to refuel it.
I agree that faith is a natural part of living - substantiated or not - we all have faith that tomorrow will be very similar to today based on our experience of all those similar yesterdays. It is logical to expect what has happened before to happen again, although our faith is betrayed whenever it does not. You are confusing faith in general with Faith in God - that's a different sort of faith, isn't it?

I have faith that if I continue to post on this Topix discussion, other people will continue to reply to my posts. This experience has happened before and it is not unrealistic for me to expect it to happen again. If no one answers my posts again, I would loose faith in Topix - with good reason since what I expected to happen, did not happen.

Faith in God has a foundation of belief in God. I cannot have faith that God will do anything because I believe that God is not an actuality. I have witnessed God not doing anything long enough to expect God to continue not doing anything.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#15 Jun 4, 2013
William wrote:
Prove that God is real? Easy.
Auburn won the BCS National Championship in 2010.
Case closed.
Are you suggesting that God influenced the outcome of a college basketball game?

Here is another Christian conundrum: if both teams prayed for God's support, why did God support one team and not the other?

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#16 Jun 4, 2013
Bobby wrote:
I know exactly what hour he is coming!
If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready,
because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
According to our earlier discussion, I am to disrespect your words now since you claim to know something the Bible claims you cannot know.

If Christians are constantly expecting Jesus's return, how could no one be expecting him?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#17 Jun 4, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
I am interested in hearing your thoughts and I am sincere in my effort to receive real answers. I asked questions such as these years ago and was never given satisfactory answers. It played a great role in my becoming Atheist, so I wouldn't be surprised to find these questions on Atheist websites. My goal is to debate with you, not to discredit God, although my point of view actually will do just that since I view God as a character and someone who does not actually exist. If you are able to convince me that I am wrong, I would gladly embrace Christianity as I have before. I am allowing you an opportunity to minister to me but I will be honest with you about my skepticism. These questions are legitimate conflicts that are regularly disregarded and ignored in the name of Faith in God - if Christianity is true, then there are good answers - I'd like to know them. Why wouldn't God want these issues put to rest? These questions promote Atheism - surely God and Christians oppose that.
Faith can certainly be taught - step one: believe what you are told, step two: don't ask questions. I was taught to have faith in God beginning at birth. It was very difficult for me to view my faith from the viewpoint of one with no faith in God, since - like all children - I accepted what I was taught out of respect to those who taught me. I was a maturing adult before it occurred to me that what I think is true, may not be. It certainly answered a lot of my questions though.
Did you ever question what you were taught in school was actually true? You see, I believe the school systems have hijacked our kids. Kids have a tendency to believe each other but not their old foggie church going parents. Faith is not learned but it can be experienced. Faith in God produces a relationship. You may ask how does God speak to me? He speaks through his word and verifies it through the power of the Holy Spirit to the believer. Yes, I suppose you could say it is an exclusive club-only believers are allowed entry. Scripture says without faith it is impossible to please God. I could teach you how faith works but without faith in the son of God, you will never get it. People who do not believe they need God or think they are sinners are not serious about him. If the world we live in is enough to satisfy then that is all there is. But I have seen weary tired people who are hungry for God because the world has not met the one thing they need. Jesus said: Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

So my question for you is this: Do you believe you are a sinner? Is there anything you know you have done wrong and want to be forgiveness for it. Maybe you cheated on your wife of dishonored your parents of was not there for your kids when they needed you. A broken heart is what God is looking for.
William

Birmingham, AL

#18 Jun 4, 2013
"Are you suggesting that God influenced the outcome of a college basketball game?"

It was college football.(And now I know why West Virginia didn't get that SEC invite a few years back.)

"Here is another Christian conundrum: if both teams prayed for God's support, why did God support one team and not the other?"

Who says he didn't support one and not the other? There is always a game the next week. Win some, lose some, and some get rained out.

Just like the Rest Of Life.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#19 Jun 4, 2013
A founding principle/doctrine is to obey the laws of the land - only where the laws prevent doing what God has commanded is there an issue to resolve with children and such. Drunkenness if wrong, moderation is not.

Water came from wells, so that wasn't an excuse to drink wine - or do you suspect Jesus only wanted water to wash His feet when He addressed the Samaraten woman?:-)

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#20 Jun 4, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you ever question what you were taught in school was actually true? You see, I believe the school systems have hijacked our kids. Kids have a tendency to believe each other but not their old foggie church going parents. Faith is not learned but it can be experienced. Faith in God produces a relationship. You may ask how does God speak to me? He speaks through his word and verifies it through the power of the Holy Spirit to the believer. Yes, I suppose you could say it is an exclusive club-only believers are allowed entry. Scripture says without faith it is impossible to please God. I could teach you how faith works but without faith in the son of God, you will never get it. People who do not believe they need God or think they are sinners are not serious about him. If the world we live in is enough to satisfy then that is all there is. But I have seen weary tired people who are hungry for God because the world has not met the one thing they need. Jesus said: Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
So my question for you is this: Do you believe you are a sinner? Is there anything you know you have done wrong and want to be forgiveness for it. Maybe you cheated on your wife of dishonored your parents of was not there for your kids when they needed you. A broken heart is what God is looking for.
As a child, I did not at all question my education - I had faith that the school system would teach me what I needed to know. Looking back as an adult, I am confident that my public school education did not properly prepare me to function successfully in the adult world. Important topics like budgetting, cooking, and raising children were omitted as if it is up to people to just figure those things out for themselves when the time comes that they need to know. I made myself responsible to see that my own children were taught the skills they will need to thrive as an adult - so, thanks for the public education, but I find it inadequate.

Again, are we in agreement that I CANNOT have Faith in God if I do not believe in God? I must achieve belief before I can consider having a faith-based relationship. The only way that God speaks to me is through the mouths or writings of human beings, so isn't there at least a chance that the message was also produced by human beings?

I think this world is enough to satisfy me and I do not expect to go on living in some other world when I cease to exist in this one. Weary, tired people have other problems than a lack of God. I do not need to be offered peace by Jesus - I have found peace by creating it for myself. I am not troubled or afraid. You have some misconceptions about Atheists.

If a sinner is a person who deliberately acts against the word of God or the Bible, well, I am sinning as we speak by denying the existence of God. I don't want or need to be forgiven for it and I intend to continue doing it. Certainly I have been unethical before in my life (my own version of sinning) and asked to be forgiven, but I wanted to be forgiven by the person I acted against or offended, not God.

If God is real, he should work a little harder to convince me to support him - I am exactly the sort of person who would work hard to further his agenda.

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