Since: May 10

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#61 Aug 6, 2013
From the above thread you see how the Catholics came to say that Mary Was a perpetual virgin and never had children (disputed by the bible) It is purely fabricated on tradition that goes against the word of God. How does that make you feel? Dont you hate lying that is based on tradition?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#62 Aug 6, 2013
There you have it. Tradition, which is held with an equal degree of pious affection as is the Bible by the Roman Catholic Church, is arrived at not by logic and a reasonable consideration of the evidence, but by a constant surging within the Church itself to believe something. That is the same as saying that for a long time the church wanted to believe something, we now believe it, it must be true. Also, if we now believe it, that proves that the church always believed it.

My friends, that is just not good enough.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#63 Aug 6, 2013
Protestantism:

Sola Scriptura.

There you have it.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#64 Aug 6, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
So those keys can go against the words of God???? lol That is a pagan idea. He is a mere man.
The Holy Father is a mere man chosen for this exalted position by the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit as the Cardinals cast their ballots. And those Keys have never gone against the Word of God. The personal lives of men who have held those Keys have no effect whatsoever on the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. By the way, Martin Luther and Alexander Campbell were not given a set. Indeed, those two remind me of the phony key that comes in a big car sale ad.

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#65 Aug 6, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Protestantism:
Sola Scriptura.
There you have it.
Thats no answer just chanting something youve been fed.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#66 Aug 6, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Protestantism:
Sola Scriptura.
There you have it.
Clement shows the sequence of revelation starting with Jesus, moving through the prophets, then finally ending its journey in the written gospels. Notice that at the end of the process, the Christian, "of himself" (using his own powers of interpretation) believes the scriptures.

Since: May 10

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#67 Aug 6, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Protestantism:
Sola Scriptura.
There you have it.
"For we have, as the source of teaching, the Lord, both by the prophets, the Gospel, and the blessed apostles, "in divers manners and at sundry times," [Heb 1:1] leading from the beginning of knowledge to the end. He, then, who of himself believes the Scripture and voice of the Lord, which by the Lord acts to the benefiting of men, is rightly [regarded] faithful." ... "For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings , in order to establish the heresy"(Clement of Alexandria, book 7, ch 16, Scripture the Criterion by Which Truth and Heresy are Distinguished)

Since: May 10

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#68 Aug 6, 2013
"From this, therefore, do we draw up our rule. Since the Lord Jesus Christ sent the apostles to preach,(our rule is) that no others ought to be received as preachers than those whom Christ appointed; for "no man knoweth the Father save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." Nor does the Son seem to have revealed Him to any other than the apostles, whom He sent forth to preach-that, of course, which He revealed to them. Now, what that was which they preached-in other words, what it was which Christ revealed to them-can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles rounded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves, both viva voce [living voice], as the phrase is, and subsequently by their epistles. If, then, these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches-those moulds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the (said) churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savours of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood. We hold communion with the apostolic churches because our doctrine is in no respect different from theirs. This is our witness of truth." (Tertullian, The prescription against the heretics, Ch 21)

Since: May 10

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#69 Aug 6, 2013
Tertullian clearly states that their doctrine and practice is identical to what the apostles taught orally and with scripture. Tertullian uses the expression "viva voce" (living voice) which is merely a reference to inspired oral revelation. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have changed the original meaning of "viva voce" from the words spoken by inspired apostles, to whatever the current practice and dogma of the church is today. Here is proof: "But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine. How can we know what antiquity was except through the Church?... I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness.... The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour." (Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation, 1865, p 227-228) To anyone with an ounce of insight, this statement is not only opposite to what Tertullian means it is utter heresy because it ignores history (Fathers) and scripture. Anyone who has talked to a Roman Catholic or Orthodox preacher, knows this is indeed exactly how they think!
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#70 Aug 6, 2013
"Tertullian clearly states that their doctrine and practice is identical to what the apostles taught orally and with scripture. Tertullian uses the expression "viva voce" (living voice) which is merely a reference to inspired oral revelation."

I agree with this statement. So you agree what he wrote about came for the Apostles.

Why don't you believe these then?

You quote from somebody from 1800 plus because your beliefs didnt begin until then.

Tertullian on Peter

"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter,‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’[Matt. 16:18–19].... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

Tertullian The real presence.

"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed ... the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).

Tertullian Apostolic Succession and 1 Church

"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church,[founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

Anonymous Proxy

Manassas, VA

#71 Aug 6, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Protestantism:
Sola Scriptura.
There you have it.
You guys are being soundly defeated in this thread by JC. What kind of response is this you give? Doesn't address the points JC is making. You don't know how much I enjoy this.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#72 Aug 6, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Clement shows the sequence of revelation starting with Jesus, moving through the prophets, then finally ending its journey in the written gospels. Notice that at the end of the process, the Christian, "of himself" (using his own powers of interpretation) believes the scriptures.
Are you seriously saying St Clement believed in SS?

Some of the Apostles were still alive when he was Pope.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#73 Aug 6, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you seriously saying St Clement believed in SS?
Some of the Apostles were still alive when he was Pope.
Just reading history Yep it seems he did.

Notice that Clement calls "slothful" those who do not put the work into interpreting the Bible for themselves! These false teachers just carelessly grab anything they can find to support their doctrines without doing a proper and though study. Again this sounds real "Catholic" or "Orthodox" because they are lazy and want the priest to simply tell them what the Bible says, rather than doing the work and studying the scriptures for themselves!

Lets see what he says

"For we have, as the source of teaching, the Lord, both by the prophets, the Gospel, and the blessed apostles, "in divers manners and at sundry times," [Heb 1:1] leading from the beginning of knowledge to the end. He, then, who of himself believes the Scripture and voice of the Lord, which by the Lord acts to the benefiting of men, is rightly [regarded] faithful." ... "For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings , in order to establish the heresy"(Clement of Alexandria, book 7, ch 16, Scripture the Criterion by Which Truth and Heresy are Distinguished)

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#74 Aug 6, 2013
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>You guys are being soundly defeated in this thread by JC. What kind of response is this you give? Doesn't address the points JC is making. You don't know how much I enjoy this.
And I do so enjoy the CofC talking about the Baptists! You would think the Baptists came straight from the fires of hell to hear them talk. It's so funny since the CofC came straight from the Baptist Church. The only point JC is making is showing us he can copy and paste but he has yet to copy and paste Philip Schaff's writings about the history of the CofC. Why? Because there aren't any!!!
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#75 Aug 6, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Just reading history Yep it seems he did.
Notice that Clement calls "slothful" those who do not put the work into interpreting the Bible for themselves! These false teachers just carelessly grab anything they can find to support their doctrines without doing a proper and though study. Again this sounds real "Catholic" or "Orthodox" because they are lazy and want the priest to simply tell them what the Bible says, rather than doing the work and studying the scriptures for themselves!
Lets see what he says
"For we have, as the source of teaching, the Lord, both by the prophets, the Gospel, and the blessed apostles, "in divers manners and at sundry times," [Heb 1:1] leading from the beginning of knowledge to the end. He, then, who of himself believes the Scripture and voice of the Lord, which by the Lord acts to the benefiting of men, is rightly [regarded] faithful." ... "For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings , in order to establish the heresy"(Clement of Alexandria, book 7, ch 16, Scripture the Criterion by Which Truth and Heresy are Distinguished)
Your have lost your mind.

The last sentence says you are are heretic if you don't follow the traditions taught by the apostles. He is saying YOU are a heretic.

Protestants have a craving for glory and evade by arguments of a diverse sort........

Perfect description of a Protestant.

"And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings , in order to establish the heresy"

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#76 Aug 6, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
Tertullian clearly states that their doctrine and practice is identical to what the apostles taught orally and with scripture. Tertullian uses the expression "viva voce" (living voice) which is merely a reference to inspired oral revelation. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have changed the original meaning of "viva voce" from the words spoken by inspired apostles, to whatever the current practice and dogma of the church is today. Here is proof: "But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine. How can we know what antiquity was except through the Church?... I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness.... The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour." (Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation, 1865, p 227-228) To anyone with an ounce of insight, this statement is not only opposite to what Tertullian means it is utter heresy because it ignores history (Fathers) and scripture. Anyone who has talked to a Roman Catholic or Orthodox preacher, knows this is indeed exactly how they think!
Interesting you would quote Cardinal Manning since he was a highly educated protestant who became a Roman Catholic. I've been to Westminster Cathedral and even went up in the tower. Both Westminster Cathedral and Westminster Abbey which was Roman Catholic until stolen, have great gift shops!
Anonymous Proxy

Los Angeles, CA

#77 Aug 6, 2013
Catholics were never much on gifts. They always had their hand out when they were in charge, it's improved now. It used to be palm down to kiss my ring and palm up to receive money under the Catholics.
Anonymous Proxy

Los Angeles, CA

#78 Aug 6, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
And I do so enjoy the CofC talking about the Baptists! You would think the Baptists came straight from the fires of hell to hear them talk. It's so funny since the CofC came straight from the Baptist Church. The only point JC is making is showing us he can copy and paste but he has yet to copy and paste Philip Schaff's writings about the history of the CofC. Why? Because there aren't any!!!
As you can see I am enjoying the subject of this thread and the way JC (the former Catholic and now Protestant) is totally demolishing you and Mike. JC knows it from both sides of the fence and your post shows that, trying to change the subject to COC and Baptist, I would be ashamed.
Anonymous Proxy

Los Angeles, CA

#79 Aug 6, 2013
I love to see you squirm Mark. It exhilarates me. Ahhhh, watching my nemesis's being soundly defeated is so refreshing,ahhhhhh.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#80 Aug 6, 2013
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
I love to see you squirm Mark. It exhilarates me. Ahhhh, watching my nemesis's being soundly defeated is so refreshing,ahhhhhh.
Me squirm? You are seriously deluded. Got any more cute Baptist websites with Latin phrases across the top?

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