Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#142 Jan 10, 2014
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Absolutely we should study these feasts and holy days, recognize their fulfillments in Christ. We gain greater understanding of God and His plan through them. I do think it would be helpful for Christians to recognize when these days fall on the calendar, think of them, see how they were observed. If we recognize their fulfillment in Christ, what harm is there even in celebrating them?
If there are Jewish believers who still want to observe the days, what is the harm- as long as they recognize that keeping these things in themselves will not bring about salvation? As Paul said, our heritage comes from the Jew. God gave these people many great blessings. if they are in Christ, they are family.
Gentiles today, just like then, should not be forced to observe the days in order to be saved, or have Jewish believers consider them saved.
I'm still on the learning curve regarding the appointed days of God and coming to learn much I wasn't taught in the CoC. So through reviewing the Sabbaths, we see some instructions were even the Gentile sojourners were commanded certain things - such as the matter of not eating anything with leaven. Since Jesus, nor His apostles, lessened any of the explicit Torah of God regarding the Sabbaths and the Torah has instruction for the Sojourners - why don't more Gentile believers teach about it? There is the prohibition by God for a Gentile to take Passover without being circumcised, but partaking was not forbidden to the Gentile, just that they meet certain conditions..
The local Messianic Synagogue is doing a study of the roots of the faith that includes the topic - so it will likely be some weeks before we get to that part.
Perhaps equally or more important is to ask ourselves why we support festivals or holidays that have no root in the faith, but are candidly actually rooted in paganism and Satanism - yet Christians rush head-long into their celebration as they ignore the celebrations given by God!
Oh, I forgot - Paul said the Torah was nailed to the cross and we just need to be convinced in our own heart we have the liberty to whatever we want if it doesn't offend our conscience - no need to do what God said!(trying to stay with the topic theme;-)
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#143 Jan 10, 2014
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, I think we should consider that the Law of Moses is not the "commandments of God" necessarily spoken of here. The moral aspects- yes. Not the civil or religious ceremonial laws of OT Israel. If we both mean that idea, then we are again in agreement.
Yes, it's the instructions in righteousness, promises, precepts and judgments that I'm speaking about - not that God expects everyone to follow all the commandments, else He would not have made distinctions between Sojourners, Israel and the Aaronic Priesthood.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#144 Jan 10, 2014
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't hold to all that he taught. He started a Church to bind and loose. To forgive or not to forgive sins. To teach. That created the Bible to help her teach.
In your current phase, you reject Jesus' Church therefore you reject many of his teachings and are a heretic
No, your Church has rejected the Christ and His authority and pretended to take it upon yourselves through a thousand years of evil men.

Your claim to fame is long since passed away and is evidenced by your current situation of harboring those who greatly harm children and hide their sins and perpetuated greater and further evils.

If you can't see that God removed His light from your Church - all I can say is that the blind can lead the blind, but as for me, I will serve God and His Redeemer King.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#145 Jan 11, 2014
xyz wrote:
http://www.topix.com/forum/rel igion/christian/TCS0OB7H2PVV48 2E5/p35
Thanks for the link!:-)
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#146 Jan 11, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm still on the learning curve regarding the appointed days of God and coming to learn much I wasn't taught in the CoC. So through reviewing the Sabbaths, we see some instructions were even the Gentile sojourners were commanded certain things - such as the matter of not eating anything with leaven. Since Jesus, nor His apostles, lessened any of the explicit Torah of God regarding the Sabbaths and the Torah has instruction for the Sojourners - why don't more Gentile believers teach about it? There is the prohibition by God for a Gentile to take Passover without being circumcised, but partaking was not forbidden to the Gentile, just that they meet certain conditions..
The local Messianic Synagogue is doing a study of the roots of the faith that includes the topic - so it will likely be some weeks before we get to that part.
Perhaps equally or more important is to ask ourselves why we support festivals or holidays that have no root in the faith, but are candidly actually rooted in paganism and Satanism - yet Christians rush head-long into their celebration as they ignore the celebrations given by God!
Oh, I forgot - Paul said the Torah was nailed to the cross and we just need to be convinced in our own heart we have the liberty to whatever we want if it doesn't offend our conscience - no need to do what God said!(trying to stay with the topic theme;-)
Since Jesus, nor His apostles, lessened any of the explicit Torah of God regarding the Sabbaths and the Torah has instruction for the Sojourners - why don't more Gentile believers teach about it?

Oh, I forgot - Paul said the Torah was nailed to the cross and we just need to be convinced in our own heart we have the liberty to whatever we want if it doesn't offend our conscience - no need to do what God said!

BW you answered your own question. Such a de-emphasis has been put on the OT that it doesn't matter- and it's because of erroneous ideal like your line about "Paul said it was nailed to the cross". Since according to most it was nailed and destroyed, it doesnt' matter.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#147 Jan 11, 2014
BW says- Perhaps equally or more important is to ask ourselves why we support festivals or holidays that have no root in the faith, but are candidly actually rooted in paganism and Satanism - yet Christians rush head-long into their celebration as they ignore the celebrations given by God!

Dave says- I don't mind the Christmas, Halloween, Easter seasons. But I must say- most professing believers have no concern whatsoever for the Jewish Holy Days, unless some prophecy "expert" is peddling some left behind theory for cash.

Many believers have no concern for their spiritual heritage.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#148 Jan 12, 2014
Evidently true! It's a time of famine for the truth of God and people who care enough to see if what they believe is true according to what God or His Anointed One had to tell us.
Seems most recognize time is now limited, but instead of washing in His word, they just dig deeper prison holes!

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#149 Jan 12, 2014
Dave P wrote:
Many believers have no concern for their spiritual heritage.
You are so right on this. For 1500 years all Christians were Catholic. Your ancestors if they were Christian, were Catholic.

Now look at the mess those who said Jesus failed have made.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#150 Jan 14, 2014
Not going to waste the time to read all the previous posts sorry, however I will ask the same question I asked on the other thread about Paul.
Paul was given the right hand of fellowship, meaning equal authority for those not able to realize this is an authority statement and not a greeting. Also Peter stated that Paul had said some difficult things, he did not say that Paul was a raving heretic therefore the other apostles were granting Paul equality with them.
This means that Paul fooled the Apostles, and they being filled with the Holy Spirit with a direct connection to God speaking to them also caused God to be fooled by Paul since God did not tell them Paul was a liar.
Finally the many people have been known to try and pass false works into the mainstream researchers and therefore those letters supposedly found could be forged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_Benan
So considering the history of forged letters etc. the above is a small sample of the creativeness what proof do you have that any letter is not forged?
Paul fooled God, you ok with that?
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#151 Jan 14, 2014
http://www.lasttrumpet.org/paul_false_apostle...
Here is some of the misguided efforts to discredit Paul.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#152 Jan 14, 2014
Walkinginlove wrote:
http://www.lasttrumpet.org/pau l_false_apostle.htm
Here is some of the misguided efforts to discredit Paul.
The same guy has another link where he claims Obama is the anti-christ and will start the great tribulation soon. For those who seek to discredit Paul, look at who you are in bed with.

PS- what's the deal with these dang puzzles to post a response? THIS SUCKS.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#153 Jan 14, 2014
Walkinginlove wrote:
Not going to waste the time to read all the previous posts sorry, however I will ask the same question I asked on the other thread about Paul.
Paul was given the right hand of fellowship, meaning equal authority for those not able to realize this is an authority statement and not a greeting. Also Peter stated that Paul had said some difficult things, he did not say that Paul was a raving heretic therefore the other apostles were granting Paul equality with them.
This means that Paul fooled the Apostles, and they being filled with the Holy Spirit with a direct connection to God speaking to them also caused God to be fooled by Paul since God did not tell them Paul was a liar.
Finally the many people have been known to try and pass false works into the mainstream researchers and therefore those letters supposedly found could be forged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_Benan
So considering the history of forged letters etc. the above is a small sample of the creativeness what proof do you have that any letter is not forged?
Paul fooled God, you ok with that?
Paul fooled God?! You've got to be kidding?
Originally grace was extended to Paul from the Jerusalem Church. In the end, Paul knew his only chance was to appeal to Rome, as he didn't take his own advice to take issues to the Church to decide. Why not? Why did Paul do that?
Where in Acts does even Luke extend the honor to Paul to be considered an apostle?
Where in any book do we see any of the Twelve Apostles extending support to Pauls' being an apostle?
Even the hearing before Felix finds that either Luke lied trying to discredit Paul by what he recorded. And if Luke discredited Paul and lied, what does that speak to the credibility of Pauls' conversion story accounts that are so out of line with each other? or the rest of the historical account of the acts of the apostles?(of which Luke does not record Paul as being and apostle - but only a missionary)
And if Lukes' telling before Felix is true, that only proves that Paul lied regarding holding the faith of the Jews from childhood?
Read Paul's writings - there is no way they can be interpreted to be consistent with Orthodox Judaism.
So you find one web site that looks sort of flakey and you think that discredits the actual facts that Paul tells on himself that proves he's nothing but a liar?
Hardly. Paul did not preach or teach the truth by the time he wrote Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, or his letters to Timothy. Paul taught against the gospel Jesus preached.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#154 Jan 14, 2014
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#155 Jan 14, 2014
Romans 3
When someone suggests to an evangelical Christian that the Law of God still stands today, one of the first defenses to refute the suggestion comes from Romans 3. We are quickly informed that no one is able to keep the Law, and all are guilty of breaking it and are therefore forever unrighteous.
As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one". Romans 3:10
This verse is part of Paul's quote from Psalm 14 that he used as proof that man cannot keep the Law to become righteous. Here is the entire piece of Scripture that Paul uses in Romans 3.
As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seek after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:10-18
This is Paul's apparent direct quote from Scripture that is supposed to prove to us that no one is righteous, but all are full of evil. Now guess what? No such passage exists! What Paul quotes is a compilation of no less than six separate passages that have been jerked out of their original context from the Psalms and the book of Isaiah, given an interpretation that cannot be found there, and strung together to appear as one quote.
As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one." Romans 3:10-12
Now here is the passage quoted accurately, and in its context.
The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God". They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, for God is with the generation of the RIGHTEOUS. Psalm 14:1-5
Guess what? In David's picture there are no atheistic fools who do good! This passage is obviously not speaking of every human being, but of a distinct group of people whom David describes as fools, atheists, workers of abominations, corrupt, ignorant, and workers of iniquity. Of course, not one of them do good. The first time Paul uses the phrase is where it doesn't exist, and it is coupled with the word "righteous". This word does not exist in this part of the Psalm, or anywhere near the words "no, not one". The word "righteous" only shows up later in verse 5, and there it directly implies that there are those who are righteous! So much for "no, not one".
In Paul's string of quotes, he continues to take snippets of Scripture out of their context from Psalm 5:9, Psalm 140:3, Psalm 10:7, Isaiah 59:7,8, and Psalm 36:1. In each and every case, the unrighteous individuals spoken of in these passages are specifically evil men, and in the greater context of these passages, the evil men are contrasted with those who are called "the righteous", "the upright", and "the innocent". Please check for yourself. Not only is there no support for Paul's picture in these passages, but in their proper context, the exact opposite is firmly established.
!
William

Birmingham, AL

#156 Jan 14, 2014
Then forget about Paul for a moment, and focus on what David said about it. Or is David a heretic to be tossed out of the Bible too?

Psalm 14:1-3

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

No, not one.

This is includes you, me, AENT Jesus-only guy, the Pope, and every Church of Christ preacher that ever lived. You need the righteous of God's son imputed to you in order to be righteous in the sight of God. And that is what Paul is trying to tell you.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#157 Jan 14, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul fooled God?! You've got to be kidding?
Originally grace was extended to Paul from the Jerusalem Church. In the end, Paul knew his only chance was to appeal to Rome, as he didn't take his own advice to take issues to the Church to decide. Why not? Why did Paul do that?
Where in Acts does even Luke extend the honor to Paul to be considered an apostle?
Where in any book do we see any of the Twelve Apostles extending support to Pauls' being an apostle?
Even the hearing before Felix finds that either Luke lied trying to discredit Paul by what he recorded. And if Luke discredited Paul and lied, what does that speak to the credibility of Pauls' conversion story accounts that are so out of line with each other? or the rest of the historical account of the acts of the apostles?(of which Luke does not record Paul as being and apostle - but only a missionary)
And if Lukes' telling before Felix is true, that only proves that Paul lied regarding holding the faith of the Jews from childhood?
Read Paul's writings - there is no way they can be interpreted to be consistent with Orthodox Judaism.
So you find one web site that looks sort of flakey and you think that discredits the actual facts that Paul tells on himself that proves he's nothing but a liar?
Hardly. Paul did not preach or teach the truth by the time he wrote Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, or his letters to Timothy. Paul taught against the gospel Jesus preached.
The same Jews that wanted to kill Paul killed Jesus (Although Jesus laid down his life per his statement), still Jesus was seen as a threat to the Orthodox Law.
So we are to conclude that because the Jews wanted Paul arrested and killed that he is false but because they did the same to Jesus we are to do what, conclude they were wrong on that Jesus was also a threat to the law?
And if Luke was out to get Paul why is it he records that the plot to kill Paul was discovered and Paul was rerouted he did nothing to inform the people who he was supposedly on the same side as?!?!
As for errors of Paul's conversion there are other errors in scripture due to scribes etc. THAT PROVES NOTHING except God has a large level of grace and mercy.
So here is a set of simple questions, did the Apostles have the Holy Spirit thus a direct line to God because of it? Yes examples like Peter's food vision etc.
Did the Apostles compromise the law of Moses? Yes Acts 15 clearly shows the ENTIRE group tossing circumcision out INCLUDING James! Or did Luke lie about that?
Did the Apostles give Paul equality? Yes Gal 2:9
Did Luke declare Paul filled with the same Holy Spirit? Yes Acts 13:9 So the Holy Spirit filled a false Apostle? REALLY??? Or is Luke lying now???
I'm sorry that you find Paul so difficult to understand that you have to toss him away.
But if you are going to judge by the law only the Jesus is guilty of breaking the law at the level the Jews saw the law applying it is why they wanted to kill him also!
So God gave Paul the Holy Spirit, and that same spirit of God blinded the other Apostles to the fact that Paul was a liar and a fraud???
I love the corners people paint themselves into trying to fit God into their box of beliefs!
2 Tim 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
You need to start testing the spirits sir!
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#158 Jan 14, 2014
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
The same Jews that wanted to kill Paul killed Jesus (Although Jesus laid down his life per his statement), still Jesus was seen as a threat to the Orthodox Law.
So we are to conclude that because the Jews wanted Paul arrested and killed that he is false but because they did the same to Jesus we are to do what, conclude they were wrong on that Jesus was also a threat to the law?
And if Luke was out to get Paul why is it he records that the plot to kill Paul was discovered and Paul was rerouted he did nothing to inform the people who he was supposedly on the same side as?!?!
As for errors of Paul's conversion there are other errors in scripture due to scribes etc. THAT PROVES NOTHING except God has a large level of grace and mercy.
So here is a set of simple questions, did the Apostles have the Holy Spirit thus a direct line to God because of it? Yes examples like Peter's food vision etc.
Did the Apostles compromise the law of Moses? Yes Acts 15 clearly shows the ENTIRE group tossing circumcision out INCLUDING James! Or did Luke lie about that?
Did the Apostles give Paul equality? Yes Gal 2:9
Did Luke declare Paul filled with the same Holy Spirit? Yes Acts 13:9 So the Holy Spirit filled a false Apostle? REALLY??? Or is Luke lying now???
I'm sorry that you find Paul so difficult to understand that you have to toss him away.
But if you are going to judge by the law only the Jesus is guilty of breaking the law at the level the Jews saw the law applying it is why they wanted to kill him also!
So God gave Paul the Holy Spirit, and that same spirit of God blinded the other Apostles to the fact that Paul was a liar and a fraud???
I love the corners people paint themselves into trying to fit God into their box of beliefs!
2 Tim 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
You need to start testing the spirits sir!
Galatians 2:9 went to a point, limiting to missionary work - not to office of apostle. Later we see Paul was not supported by the apostles or James. Very odd 'scribal errors' to have continued so long wrong. Acts 15 does not center on what you said! Hardly so. You need to study more. Acts 13:9? When did Paul pass from being a missionary to becoming the NT Balaam? When he perverted "the straight ways of the Lord" and started leading people to NOT do as God commanded. When did this happen?
Testing the Spirit? What did God say the Spirit would be given for? And is this not to write His instruction on our hearts to do it? The Spirit of Truth works and abides with the Word of Truth to effect our hearts, minds and lives to do the will of God "indeed". This is in conjunction with being "disciples indeed" and abiding in His word.
Yes, I have tested the spirits and have, as Jesus did, found Paul to be a liar who taught people to NOT do as the Lord said.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#159 Jan 15, 2014
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
The same Jews that wanted to kill Paul killed Jesus (Although Jesus laid down his life per his statement), still Jesus was seen as a threat to the Orthodox Law.
..........So God gave Paul the Holy Spirit, and that same spirit of God blinded the other Apostles to the fact that Paul was a liar and a fraud???
I love the corners people paint themselves into trying to fit God into their box of beliefs!
2 Tim 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
You need to start testing the spirits sir!
As with the previous post about the other apostles support of Pauls' authority as an apostle - we should be very careful with the word of God, and the word of the early Church historian, Luke. First, there were several factions of Judaism in Jesus day, but we find His harshest criticism towards two - the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was a threat to their interpretation and misuse of Scripture and binding things on men that God never commanded and for majoring in minors and ignoring the weightier matters of Gods instructions. Jesus taught the Torah and Mitzvah of God - but when He claimed to be the Son of God, THAT is why they killed Him. They failed to see the truth of it so they denied it. Why did they fail to see it? They failed to see what God actually had told them to start with. May we not be so foolish as to do the same thing - failing to see what God has said is true.

"Everyone" grouped into not even seeking God or pleasing God - why not just stretch that out to say Jesus sinned too?

How is it said Enoch walked with God? How is it that Abraham and others are spoken of as being a 'friend' of God? How is it that Jesus said those who come to Him to learn of Him are His intimate family? And how is it that when we abide in all He taught us from God and that we also keep His commandments that we can be His friends?

If you have children or have worked with many people, you'll have to admit there are both good and bad people - and many just play follow-the-leader.

Jesus said those who seek to do the will of God will come to Him to know that what they do is done of God. He didn't say the need is to come to Peter or Paul - but Him, and His chosen eyewitnesses and fellow workers for the gospel are the twelve apostles - and Paul is never said to be one of the twelve in the gospel records.

We are told Paul went around to persecute, imprison and kill disciples of Jesus. Yet even when given the chance to change, Paul again elevated himself above the truth of God and still causes many to ignore Jesus and listen to him. And Paul gave some of the most illogical statements ever made that many refuse to open their eyes to and compare with what Jesus taught - just about like God must have decided Jesus did a poor job and forgot most of the lessons on grace, as He was so busy teaching if we believe, we will DO what He said.

Paul makes it grace VS works.

Jesus taught belief and love in actions - faith and works = grace. The works of doing what He said because we believe Him. We should call Jesus 'Lord' and do what He said'. Isn't that the counter point of 'Why do you call Me "Lord" and not do what I say?"
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#160 Jan 16, 2014
BW says: Romans 3
When someone suggests to an evangelical Christian that the Law of God still stands today, one of the first defenses to refute the suggestion comes from Romans 3. We are quickly informed that no one is able to keep the Law, and all are guilty of breaking it and are therefore forever unrighteous.
As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one". Romans 3:10
This verse is part of Paul's quote from Psalm 14 that he used as proof that man cannot keep the Law to become righteous.

Dave says:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said,“Do not commit adultery,”[b] also said,“Do not murder.”[c] Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Why do you continue to give Paul a false rap when your boy JAMES wrote this? And why remain silent on this point so long?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#161 Jan 16, 2014
This is Paul's apparent direct quote from Scripture that is supposed to prove to us that no one is righteous, but all are full of evil. Now guess what? No such passage exists! What Paul quotes is a compilation of no less than six separate passages that have been jerked out of their original context from the Psalms and the book of Isaiah, given an interpretation that cannot be found there, and strung together to appear as one quote.

*How hard is it to grasp that Paul, through the inspiration of the Spirit no less, used several small quotes to make one simple point- that all have sinned and need the gospel? That is the overlying point in the first few chapters in Romans. He's not doing exegetical work on the OT, he's trying to show the Roman church that all men need the gospel message.

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