Letís look at Paul

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Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#82
Dec 29, 2013
 

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Mike_Peterson wrote:
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What Church are you to gong to tell?
The local one.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#83
Dec 29, 2013
 
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>I think Jesus is speaking of excommunication as Paul touches on in the last part of chapter 5. Apparently the church never did this(first part of chapter) and Paul took the action he did. I was studying this last night and most comments consider this excommunication but several do not. They consider it an action separate from any action the church could take, strictly an apostolic action. Paul did it before it seems 1 Ti 1:20. It is not real plain any other apostle did this. Elisha had similar power (2 Kings 2:23-24) but this was not done to Christians. I don't think it is plain in scripture that Jesus and Paul are on the same page here but they may be because of the 2 Kings verse.
It may be that Paul stepped up because the Corinthian church didn't deal with the issue.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#84
Dec 30, 2013
 

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Or it may be that they believed what Paul said and it had come to bring disrepute on the way according to Paul. Paul taught "All things are lawful", that the "Law was nailed to the cross", and the new standard was what you can do without offending your own conscience. This was Paul's way to stamp out an error of his own making.

Workers of anomia are not even known by Master Y'shua - in spite of the wonders of faith they think to possess in hopeless promises based on lies.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#85
Dec 30, 2013
 

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The fact from the beginning is that there were those of other nationalities than children of Abraham who came out with Israel from Egypt. They had joined themselves with Israel and partook of the provision of God that day, as they did up to Sinai and through the wilderness and into the land of promise. Look back to Exodus 20. Did they all partake of the manna? Yes. Were they all protected by God while going out of Egypt? Yes. And when they came to Sinai they were all present - Israel and the sojourners. The very opening statement by God is what? "I am Adonai you God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the abode of slavery." Were those of other nations brought out with Israel - so many as went with them? Yes. The Ten Commandments, as with all the open-ended laws given to them, are for both Israel and the sojourners. Then there are laws given to only Israel. Then there are some that apply to both, such as the command that if a sojourner wanted to partake of the Passover with those of Israel, that they had to be circumcised to do so, but that it was a condition for partaking of the Passover, not of necessity, but if they desired to it was required by God. Period. It was clear from the beginning.

Jesus (Y'shua) changed not one of the Commandments of God, except through fulfillment, that the one true sacrifice for sin be accomplished and that through belief and repentance to do whatsoever God wills for them to do in abiding in His words of life, that we find the promised gift of the Holy Spirit given in Acts 2:38,39.

The controversy initiated by Paul was resolved by going right back to the same standards given by God and taught by Jesus Christ throughout His teachings and life example.

This is why those who reject the commandments of God are not even known by the returning King - they rejected being His subjects as they rejected His commandments. "Depart from Me. I never knew you."

And to do this because we think we can't keep those commandments?

Which is too hard to do? Name one.

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#86
Dec 30, 2013
 

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Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
The local one.
Good start. The local Catholic Church. But the Bishop has the final say in your diocese.

If you have a grievance and every church teaches something different, no prot Church has any authority to settle grievances.
Anonymous Proxy

Milpitas, CA

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#87
Dec 30, 2013
 

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Anonymous Proxy wrote:
The thing is we do not do this today.The Catholic church does not excommunicate our politicians and Supreme Court judges. They do not use these powers to remove these people. Why they even jumped into bed with Hitler. Did the Catholics do the same with their pedophile priests as Paul would have done? With their "who am I to judge" Pope the Catholic church doesn't seem at all like the church of the bible.
The Catholics won't touch this. Even if they answer it will not be an answer as usual. Still I have to ask why what we see in the bible is not what we see especially in the church that considers themselves the only church.
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
I don't think it is plain in scripture that Jesus and Paul are on the same page here but they may be because of the 2 Kings verse.
Jesus was well aware of the Elisha situation and if it were not acceptable by God or untrue then teh Jews would surely have not considered it scripture. By saying Jesus could have been on the same page as PauI I am considering the Elisha action comparable and legitimate, otherwise Paul's action would seem out of place with the New Testament. If the action by Paul in 1 Co 5 is acceptable by God and if Paul is a legitimate apostle why is this not a practice for today? Paul records apostles of which he is one that no others acknowledge. We can't say it was only for the twelve because Paul was not one of them. We can't say the office was done away with because the church replaced Judas and the office was set in place for the church by God.

1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

This in itself is an unusual statement, God appoints leadership and Paul shows us a "still more excellent way". God has just placed his plan into action, is it time for a change already? We have many today who claim to be apostles and have large followings and many have followings larger than Pauls. One recently in our time was Herbert w. Armstrong and he had a 1 Cor 5 moment with his son and women. Excommunication took place, but could the verse 5 part of chapter 1 Co 5 have come into place in this situation also? Without the end result of the one being punished it is hard to say. If Elisha is taken into consideration, imminent death did not happen in the Armstrong case.
Anonymous Proxy

Milpitas, CA

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#88
Dec 30, 2013
 

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Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Good start. The local Catholic Church. But the Bishop has the final say in your diocese.
If you have a grievance and every church teaches something different, no prot Church has any authority to settle grievances.
Catholics have the same problems they just pretend they do not exist. Some very charismatic Catholic churches are out there.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#89
Dec 31, 2013
 

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No one can name one that is too hard for us to keep?

Which of you can show this is not true, that the open ended commandments of God were not given to the Gentiles?

"The fact from the beginning is that there were those of other nationalities than children of Abraham who came out with Israel from Egypt. They had joined themselves with Israel and partook of the provision of God that day, as they did up to Sinai and through the wilderness and into the land of promise. Look back to Exodus 20. Did they all partake of the manna? Yes. Were they all protected by God while going out of Egypt? Yes. And when they came to Sinai they were all present - Israel and the sojourners. The very opening statement by God is what? "I am Adonai you God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the abode of slavery." Were those of other nations brought out with Israel - so many as went with them? Yes. The Ten Commandments, as with all the open-ended laws given to them, are for both Israel and the sojourners. Then there are laws given to only Israel. Then there are some that apply to both, such as the command that if a sojourner wanted to partake of the Passover with those of Israel, that they had to be circumcised to do so, but that it was a condition for partaking of the Passover, not of necessity, but if they desired to it was required by God. Period. It was clear from the beginning."

The fact is also that God gave them these words to witness to the rest of the nations of the greatness and goodness of their God.

The Messiah came to cause the Gentiles to turn and do the commandments of God.

If you cannot refute these facts, then you should at least admit to following the Jesus of Paul and not the true Messiah.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#90
Dec 31, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
And to do this because we think we can't keep those commandments?
Which is too hard to do? Name one.
Ever lie? Steal? Dishonor your parents? Eat shellfish? Perfectly keep every sabbath? Commit adultery? Even look at a woman, to lust after her- even just one time? Go up to Jerusalem 3 times a year? Covet? Take the Lord's name in vain- even once?

Me too. Just like you, I've fallen short of this standard at least once. Only Jesus done all this perfectly. Do you have the humility to admit such, or will you be like the lawyer who is glad he isn't like that poor old sinner down there?

How many more do you need to see to realize you haven't kept any of them perfectly during your life- at all- not even one of them?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#91
Dec 31, 2013
 
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>The Catholics won't touch this. Even if they answer it will not be an answer as usual. Still I have to ask why what we see in the bible is not what we see especially in the church that considers themselves the only church.
<quoted text> Jesus was well aware of the Elisha situation and if it were not acceptable by God or untrue then teh Jews would surely have not considered it scripture. By saying Jesus could have been on the same page as PauI I am considering the Elisha action comparable and legitimate, otherwise Paul's action would seem out of place with the New Testament. If the action by Paul in 1 Co 5 is acceptable by God and if Paul is a legitimate apostle why is this not a practice for today? Paul records apostles of which he is one that no others acknowledge. We can't say it was only for the twelve because Paul was not one of them. We can't say the office was done away with because the church replaced Judas and the office was set in place for the church by God.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
This in itself is an unusual statement, God appoints leadership and Paul shows us a "still more excellent way". God has just placed his plan into action, is it time for a change already? We have many today who claim to be apostles and have large followings and many have followings larger than Pauls. One recently in our time was Herbert w. Armstrong and he had a 1 Cor 5 moment with his son and women. Excommunication took place, but could the verse 5 part of chapter 1 Co 5 have come into place in this situation also? Without the end result of the one being punished it is hard to say. If Elisha is taken into consideration, imminent death did not happen in the Armstrong case.
Apples and pears? The Elisha story has absolutely nothing to do with church discipline or handing anyone over to Satan at all.

Church discipline doesn't take place anywhere at all today?

Proxy says- This in itself is an unusual statement, God appoints leadership and Paul shows us a "still more excellent way". God has just placed his plan into action, is it time for a change already?

Dave says- do you never read letters as a whole? The more excellent way Paul is speaking of is love. The section of that letter is dealing with Christians who value some spiritual gifts over other gifts. Paul says love is truly the greatest gift. I thought most people had a decent working grasp of that principle.

Do you think that according to Paul's words, physical death is necessary to "hand one over to Satan"?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#92
Dec 31, 2013
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
If you cannot refute these facts, then you should at least admit to following the Jesus of Paul and not the true Messiah.
These so called facts have been refuted so many times it isn't fun anymore. I do admit though- you're still lost out in the tall weeds.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

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#93
Jan 1, 2014
 

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Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever lie? Steal? Dishonor your parents? Eat shellfish? Perfectly keep every sabbath? Commit adultery? Even look at a woman, to lust after her- even just one time? Go up to Jerusalem 3 times a year? Covet? Take the Lord's name in vain- even once?
Me too. Just like you, I've fallen short of this standard at least once. Only Jesus done all this perfectly. Do you have the humility to admit such, or will you be like the lawyer who is glad he isn't like that poor old sinner down there?
How many more do you need to see to realize you haven't kept any of them perfectly during your life- at all- not even one of them?
How could I have kept them when I was taught to NOT keep them because they were nailed to the cross? How can one keep that which they were not taught to do or believe? I can see from your list that you have not yet distinguished between the open ended commandments to all from the specifics given to Israel only.

I also note your false perception of absolute perfection or nothing. This is another lie of the Accuser - as it is not of God.

There are abominations that are not to even be named as accused of, let alone guilty of. If you do even a cursory review of the Commandments given, you should note not all are equally condemnatory.

I can see you lack complete understanding of the most basic premise of the faith delivered once for all time. You've believed Paul rather than God, Moses or the Christ.

The faith is what Yeshua taught, which built upon what came before and raising it to the highest levels God desires of man to believe and do. He upheld the commandments and promises of God and unlocked the keys to the locks of your prison house - if you believed enough to do as He said.

Look again my fellow prisoner - escape the snares of lies and come to the author of truth and life - repent - turn to actually do what He has told you.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

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#94
Jan 1, 2014
 

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Dave P wrote:
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These so called facts have been refuted so many times it isn't fun anymore. I do admit though- you're still lost out in the tall weeds.
Maybe it looks like tall weeds from your perspective of still being in your little prison hole, but at least I'm out of the hole and starting to walk the pathway that Yeshua said leads to life eternal.

You know I've quoted numerous times where Yeshua said the most profound teaching of His ministry - when He said we enter the most intimate relationship He spoke of - that of when He considers us to be His "friends", as well as those He considers personal family.

Both have to do with our love for Him being shown by hearing and doing whatever He commanded and taught.

Do tell - how is the "more excellent way" of Paul better than "the way" taught by Jesus Christ? Hint: Jesus didn't teach in Greek.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

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#95
Jan 1, 2014
 
Yeshua taught the commandments and word of God is in effect till earth pass away and all things be fulfilled - which includes the Accuser being cast into the lake of fire.

Do you actually believe Him? And regarding this discussion of Paul - from what Paul wrote, Paul didn't believe Yeshua or Moses or God, but instead taught his way as more excellent than the way Yeshua said the Father told Him to tell the original disciples.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

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#96
Jan 1, 2014
 

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Paul was just another man led to disbelieve God.
Anonymous Proxy

San Jose, CA

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#97
Jan 1, 2014
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Apples and pears? The Elisha story has absolutely nothing to do with church discipline or handing anyone over to Satan at all.
Church discipline doesn't take place anywhere at all today?
Proxy says- This in itself is an unusual statement, God appoints leadership and Paul shows us a "still more excellent way". God has just placed his plan into action, is it time for a change already?
Dave says- do you never read letters as a whole? The more excellent way Paul is speaking of is love. The section of that letter is dealing with Christians who value some spiritual gifts over other gifts. Paul says love is truly the greatest gift. I thought most people had a decent working grasp of that principle.
Do you think that according to Paul's words, physical death is necessary to "hand one over to Satan"?
The main problem here is your comprehension or lack thereof. Post 81 is a good example. I am talking of the power Paul exercises in 1 Co 5. I am trying to be open enough to justify the actions of Paul in some way. The verses you listed are not the same at all. The point that Jesus could be on the same page as Elisha has to do with power only. Since Jesus nor anyone has a problem with the verse in 2 Kings the power that Paul exercised may be okay with Jesus. No example of this power being exercised in the N.T. church by anyone else I can think of.
Anonymous Proxy

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#98
Jan 1, 2014
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Apples and pears? The Elisha story has absolutely nothing to do with church discipline or handing anyone over to Satan at all.
You know where I believe you keep your head. Look back at my post 78. You will see I said with the situation of Elisha that they were not Christians. Duh !!!! it could hardly have anything to do with church discipline could it.

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#99
Jan 1, 2014
 

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Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever lie? Steal? Dishonor your parents? Eat shellfish? Perfectly keep every sabbath? Commit adultery? Even look at a woman, to lust after her- even just one time? Go up to Jerusalem 3 times a year? Covet? Take the Lord's name in vain- even once?
Me too. Just like you, I've fallen short of this standard at least once. Only Jesus done all this perfectly. Do you have the humility to admit such, or will you be like the lawyer who is glad he isn't like that poor old sinner down there?
How many more do you need to see to realize you haven't kept any of them perfectly during your life- at all- not even one of them?
This is why Jesus created the sacrament of Reconciliation. He gave the authority to his disciples and their successor to forgive or not forgive sins. How can they do this unless you confess the times you have sinned. In what you have done and what you have failed to do.
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#100
Jan 1, 2014
 

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Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
This is why Jesus created the sacrament of Reconciliation. He gave the authority to his disciples and their successor to forgive or not forgive sins. How can they do this unless you confess the times you have sinned. In what you have done and what you have failed to do.
Which fork of your tongue did that come out of? When I question whether the pedophile priests could forgive sin and administer communion you said it was not them but God that did it. Now they are back at forgiving sin. Which is it? Can a scandalous priest forgive someones sin?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#101
Jan 1, 2014
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I also note your false perception of absolute perfection or nothing. This is another lie of the Accuser - as it is not of God.
.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is guilty of all."

James 2:10.

According to YOUR theory, written during Paul's trial for blasphemy. LOL. James, one of the writers you trust, says offend in one- guilty of all. Is James of the Accuser or of God?

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