Letís look at Paul
William

Birmingham, AL

#202 Jan 23, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Read Acts 3:22,23. It's far harder to live by the standards of righteousness Jesus taught than to simply abide by the Commandments of God given to Moses.

This is why our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees or we can in no way enter heaven.
And you will fail miserably, just like everyone else did. You are betting your life and your eternal soul that you are going to be able to do something that no one has ever managed to do, and it is a blasphemous reproach upon the sacrifice of Jesus on that cross for you to even attempt it.

You need HIS righteousness, not any of your own, which are as filthy rags. Yours, mine, everyone on this page, the Pope, the CoC preacher, and everyone else's so-called "righteousness" aren't worth anything to God. God will ONLY accept the righteousness of his Son on our behalf.
William

Birmingham, AL

#203 Jan 23, 2014
Dave P wrote:
Agree with most every bit of this. It is amazing to see that James said most all the things that Paul said, said them FIRST, yet Paul gets trashed and James is the one fighting against Paul. Have you ever heard such ignorance before?

When you try to have a hybrid of the law of Moses with NT Christianity, it almost always ends up being a works based salvation process. We see the fallacy of it at work here.
No Israelite in the OT was ever saved by being righteous under the law of Moses, and they had to have animal sacrifices to make a yearly atonement ON TOP of trying the adhere to the 613 laws, commandments, and ordinances. Even the high priest was not immune from failure.

Yet today, under the so-called "Law of Christ" in the NT, people actually think that they can be righteous and be accepted by God by doing "works" even though most people can't even point to a shopping list of "which" works someone can be justified by. Everyone that advocates works likes to point to James 2, but there is no list from James on just what it will take to be justified with God for these works.

Most everyone today thinks they are "being righteous" but somebody told me not long ago that they were going to heaven because they were keeping the 10 commandments. I asked them to name them, and they couldn't. I said "how can you be keeping the commandments when you don't even know what they are???"

Try to work your way into heaven and you are gonna end up in hell.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#204 Jan 23, 2014
William wrote:
<quoted text>
No Israelite in the OT was ever saved by being righteous under the law of Moses, and they had to have animal sacrifices to make a yearly atonement ON TOP of trying the adhere to the 613 laws, commandments, and ordinances. Even the high priest was not immune from failure.
Yet today, under the so-called "Law of Christ" in the NT, people actually think that they can be righteous and be accepted by God by doing "works" even though most people can't even point to a shopping list of "which" works someone can be justified by. Everyone that advocates works likes to point to James 2, but there is no list from James on just what it will take to be justified with God for these works.
Most everyone today thinks they are "being righteous" but somebody told me not long ago that they were going to heaven because they were keeping the 10 commandments. I asked them to name them, and they couldn't. I said "how can you be keeping the commandments when you don't even know what they are???"
Try to work your way into heaven and you are gonna end up in hell.
Try to get someone to give a good definition of the law of Christ. All you'll get it, "all the commands of Jesus and the apostles". Thing is, the law of Christ is simply to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The two greatest commandments, the ones everything hangs on. We don't get that right.

To have someone say that to keep the big 10 is good enough, then not even know them, is hilarious if it isn't so darn sad and serious.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#205 Jan 23, 2014
In summary, it is wrong to use John 14:6 as a proof-text for the evangelical doctrine that suggests unless a man accepts Jesus as his savior, he has no hope of salvation and will therefore spend eternity in the torments of the lake of fire. In John 5:29 Yahshua said that those who have "done good" will be saved and receive a just degree of eternal life.
Many evangelicals honestly believe that unless a Jew accepts Jesus as his savior, he will end up in the lake of fire. It's hard to express how repulsive this lie is... especially when there are many Jews who keep both great commandments and do good by loving the Lord their God and their neighbors as themselves.
Yahshua's own testimony concerning himself appears to indicate that he had a beginning in that he was the first of God's creations. But however one wants to interpret this, it is evident that Yahshua is in some way, the creation of YHWH, and therefore not YHWH Himself.
More nonsense that BW cherry-picks his beliefs from.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#206 Jan 23, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus did teach the fullness of grace and truth - but the fullness He taught said we are judged by our works - not some 'faith feeling' without works. James refutes Paul in saying faith without works is DEAD.
Do recall the parable of the vinedresser.
This is true only in the Jesus Words Only Guy's universe.

You have no clue what Paul said. You take others' words for what he said and never read or examine them. And James can't refute something that hadn't been written yet.

Does that great Bible scholar, Mr. Jesus words only guy, give the correct date for James' writing? LOL. Or perhaps Judaism v. Christianity guy, since James obviously had Paul's letters in front of him to refute them. Even bigger belly LOL on that one.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#207 Jan 24, 2014
William wrote:
<quoted text>
No Israelite in the OT was ever saved by being righteous under the law of Moses, and they had to have animal sacrifices to make a yearly atonement ON TOP of trying the adhere to the 613 laws, commandments, and ordinances. Even the high priest was not immune from failure.
Yet today, under the so-called "Law of Christ" in the NT, people actually think that they can be righteous and be accepted by God by doing "works" even though most people can't even point to a shopping list of "which" works someone can be justified by. Everyone that advocates works likes to point to James 2, but there is no list from James on just what it will take to be justified with God for these works.
Most everyone today thinks they are "being righteous" but somebody told me not long ago that they were going to heaven because they were keeping the 10 commandments. I asked them to name them, and they couldn't. I said "how can you be keeping the commandments when you don't even know what they are???"
Try to work your way into heaven and you are gonna end up in hell.
Deut. 6:25;
And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe and do all this commandment before Jehovah our God, as he hath commanded us. ASV
"It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do." CJB
"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded." NKJ
Jesus upheld the Mitzvot (commandments/instructions) of God and declared in the very first gospel sermon to not even think he came to set it aside and that all would be in effect till heaven and earth pass away and all things be fulfilled.
Only Paul taught differently. None of the twelve apostles taught a single thing against anything Jesus taught.
I'm no the one in danger.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#208 Jan 24, 2014
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
This is true only in the Jesus Words Only Guy's universe.
You have no clue what Paul said. You take others' words for what he said and never read or examine them. And James can't refute something that hadn't been written yet.
Does that great Bible scholar, Mr. Jesus words only guy, give the correct date for James' writing? LOL. Or perhaps Judaism v. Christianity guy, since James obviously had Paul's letters in front of him to refute them. Even bigger belly LOL on that one.
No, it's what Jesus taught. You are a disciple of Paul, not Jesus. You'd do well to stop denying it;-)
William

Birmingham, AL

#209 Jan 25, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Deut. 6:25; And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe and do all this commandment before Jehovah our God, as he hath commanded us. ASV
"It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do." CJB

"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded." NKJ

Jesus upheld the Mitzvot (commandments/instructions) of God and declared in the very first gospel sermon to not even think he came to set it aside and that all would be in effect till heaven and earth pass away and all things be fulfilled.

Only Paul taught differently. None of the twelve apostles taught a single thing against anything Jesus taught.

I'm not the one in danger.
And not a single one of them was ever able to uphold all 613 of the commandments, and neither will you. If righteousness came by upholding the law, then Jesus died in vain.

No one outside of Jesus was ever able to uphold those laws. No one. Not you, not Moses, not Abraham, not Jesus-Only guy, and not you or me or anyone else.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#210 Jan 25, 2014
BW says: Deut. 6:25;
And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe and do all this commandment before Jehovah our God, as he hath commanded us. ASV
"It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do." CJB
"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded." NKJ

Dave says: Notice the one big little word that doesn't get emphasized here? IF. If we observe, if we do.

What did James eventually say? Fail in one, guilty of all. Guess how many failed in at least one? All.

Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. What do they all have in common? They lived, and were righteous, before the law existed. They didn't observe or keep- yet were found righteous. In Heath's immortal words, hmmmmmmmm.
William

Talladega, AL

#211 Jan 26, 2014
Those laws were never given to make anyone righteous. They were given to show that no one can be righteous by keeping 613 laws that still required annual animal sacrifices, even by a high priest.

Jesus then comes along and says that if a man even looks and thinks about committing adultery that he is guilty of it.

Our flesh is worthless. Born in sin with a sin nature because we are all descended from Adam and his sin. You can't clean your flesh up because it cannot be cleaned up, but someone always wants to come along and try.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#212 Jan 27, 2014
William wrote:
<quoted text>
And not a single one of them was ever able to uphold all 613 of the commandments, and neither will you. If righteousness came by upholding the law, then Jesus died in vain.
No one outside of Jesus was ever able to uphold those laws. No one. Not you, not Moses, not Abraham, not Jesus-Only guy, and not you or me or anyone else.
Ever read the famous ' the grace of the LORD is new every morning' passage? The grace of God has been from the beginning. The grace of God continued in His dealings with Israel and the giving of His instructions in righteousness. The grace of God was raised to its highest levels in giving His Son.

Never from the beginning did God demand absolute perfection.

The charges about no one being perfect is not but a lie.

Who does God have grace towards?

God said we can. He said it wasn't too difficult to do.

Do you believe Him or the accuser?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#213 Jan 27, 2014
Dave P wrote:
BW says: Deut. 6:25;
And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe and do all this commandment before Jehovah our God, as he hath commanded us. ASV
"It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do." CJB
"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded." NKJ
Dave says: Notice the one big little word that doesn't get emphasized here? IF. If we observe, if we do.
What did James eventually say? Fail in one, guilty of all. Guess how many failed in at least one? All.
Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. What do they all have in common? They lived, and were righteous, before the law existed. They didn't observe or keep- yet were found righteous. In Heath's immortal words, hmmmmmmmm.
Nope.

Genesis 26:5.

That was them, we are now.

What is required now if we are to hear whatever 'that Prophet' sayeth or be 'cut off from the brethren'? Just ignoring the fact that He upheld the Commandments of God and told us it is still required?

'Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute sin'
What do you suppose that means?

Are we, as Paul taught, freed from the Law because Jesus nailed it to the cross?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#214 Jan 27, 2014
Dave P wrote:
BW says: Deut. 6:25;
And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe and do all this commandment before Jehovah our God, as he hath commanded us. ASV
"It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do." CJB
"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded." NKJ
Dave says: Notice the one big little word that doesn't get emphasized here? IF. If we observe, if we do.
What did James eventually say? Fail in one, guilty of all. Guess how many failed in at least one? All.
Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. What do they all have in common? They lived, and were righteous, before the law existed. They didn't observe or keep- yet were found righteous. In Heath's immortal words, hmmmmmmmm.
Yes, another example of this little word "if".

"IF you abide in My word, ye are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

You have to be abiding in all He taught, or at least in the process of receiving it all to do the will of God, to come to the knowledge of actual truth that defies the lies of Satan and false doctrines.
William

Birmingham, AL

#215 Jan 27, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Ever read the famous ' the grace of the LORD is new every morning' passage? The grace of God has been from the beginning. The grace of God continued in His dealings with Israel and the giving of His instructions in righteousness. The grace of God was raised to its highest levels in giving His Son.

Never from the beginning did God demand absolute perfection.

The charges about no one being perfect is not but a lie.

Who does God have grace towards?

God said we can. He said it wasn't too difficult to do. Do you believe Him or the accuser?
God sent his only begotten son to die, shed his blood, and satisfy the cost of sin. That is something that you can never do by your works, or your works added to the sacrifice of his son. The sinless sacrifice is the only thing that God is going to accept, and your flesh is not going to add to it. Your flesh, and mine, is a stench in the nostrils of a holy and righteous God.

Why won't you trust in what was accomplished for you on that cross, rather than trying to please God by doing things that he has already told you will not please him? There are plenty of works for you to do as a result of that trust. Namely, being an Ambassador for Christ and telling others about that trust.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#216 Jan 28, 2014
Why? Because that message is only a half truth. Jesus didn't come to give a free gift if we just trust His faithfulness is credited to us without us doing anything but trusting in His works, and that what we do is nothing and useless.
God sent His Son out of love, but only those who believe and repent to do the will of God - as taught by the Son and the rest of the Holy Scripture - will be found faithful, as Abraham was.(Genesis 26:5; Matthew 28 great commission; Acts 3:22,23; Revelation 22:13,15)
From His opening sermon we know the foundation of faith and belief and truth that is according to the truth of God.
Some don't believe Him, but claim they trust Him.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#217 Jan 28, 2014
"Are we justified or saved by faith, according to Jesus? Certainly! But by faith alone that would exclude works in every sense? No way. In John 11:25, we read: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live." That is faith. Yet, in Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus declared: "... If you would enter life, keep the commandments ... You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself." That is works.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: "... for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#218 Jan 28, 2014
Jesus said whoever hears you hears me.

Who in the Protestant world speaks for God?

Name just one.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#219 Jan 28, 2014
Protestants, Catholics, Restorationalists - all have the same book that contains the words of God and His Christ. God speaks for God. Jesus speaks for God. The apostles taught the teachings of Jesus Christ - what they taught was not their own - their gospel accounts, epistles and letters, and finally the Testimony of Jesus Christ from heaven.

All should do as God said, and "Hear Him!"
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#220 Jan 28, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Protestants, Catholics, Restorationalists - all have the same book that contains the words of God and His Christ. God speaks for God. Jesus speaks for God. The apostles taught the teachings of Jesus Christ - what they taught was not their own - their gospel accounts, epistles and letters, and finally the Testimony of Jesus Christ from heaven.
All should do as God said, and "Hear Him!"
So he speaks to you 2000 years later, you understand him fully, and he told you that Paul was heretic. You read material written 2 millennium ago, no originals exist, that has been translated and interpreted hundred of thousands of times, but now after years of study you have it right.
Are you saying you are infallible? If you are not, then you are teaching error.
Completely bizarre.
William

Birmingham, AL

#221 Jan 28, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
Why? Because that message is only a half truth. Jesus didn't come to give a free gift if we just trust His faithfulness is credited to us without us doing anything but trusting in His works, and that what we do is nothing and useless.

God sent His Son out of love, but only those who believe and repent to do the will of God - as taught by the Son and the rest of the Holy Scripture - will be found faithful, as Abraham was.(Genesis 26:5; Matthew 28 great commission; Acts 3:22,23; Revelation 22:13,15)

From His opening sermon we know the foundation of faith and belief and truth that is according to the truth of God.

Some don't believe Him, but claim they trust Him.
Then you will have no trouble selling out everything you own, giving the proceeds to the poor, in order to have treasure in heaven. The believing Jews in Acts 2 most certainly did, and had all things common as a result. That instruction is part of what The Man said, along with what Peter told those people to do, so if you are going to go the works route, you are already failing miserably.

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