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Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#121
May 14, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Mike I do not believe that the contraception issue has ever been a sin. Being a eunuch is not a sin in the bible but their owners who made them that way were not even charged for doing that to their slaves. I believe that was a sin.
Abortion is a sin! Not the same thing as contraception-I know you will disagree and I know why. I agree that it is perfectly ok for those catholics who do practice the issue according to catholic guidelines-but scripture does not bind it, it is a catholic tradition-clearly not a sin.
You really need to brush up history. Until 1930, All Christians considered birth control a Sin. The all caved in to the pressure of their congregations in 1960 when the pill came out. They did not want to lose pew sitters.

Do Catholics use the Pill? OF course they do, but they are taught that is a mortal sin.

From the beginning of Christian history until the 19th century, the teaching held that contraception was sinful, says Allan Carlson, the author of “Godly Seed: American Evangelicals Confront Birth Control, 1873-1973.”“‘Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth’— until the 1920s, all Protestants formally read that as being a ban on contraception,” Dr. Carlson says,“and all Protestants held to the Christian convention that birth control was sinful, for the same reason and in the same way abortion was.”

But that consensus “started to break down in the 1920s,” Dr. Carlson says. The Church of England accepted birth control in 1930, and American Protestant bodies soon followed.

Wiki

Highly conservative Protestants such as Mary Pride, Charles D. Provan, Hess and Hess, and Rachel Scott, argue that Protestants should not have moved away from traditional Protestant views of contraception such as given by Martin Luther and John Calvin. Such modern authors contrast the views of early Reformers who rejected contraception with modern Christians who accept it, and point to primarily feminist, secular, or Satanic influences as causative to the change.[9][10][11][12]

Provan in his The Bible and Birth Control extensively quotes early Protestant views of birth control, which Provan uses to conclude,

If Martin Luther were alive today, would he not disapprove of many Christians who view children as a bad thing, and so practice birth control to prevent God from sending more blessings to them?... Truly Scriptural principles do not change at all: therefore Christians should willingly receive the blessings which God has for us, and not try to prevent them.[10]

Reformed scholars such as James B. Jordan, however, maintain that Provan's view has the effect of adding a law to the Bible it does not contain. Jordan states,

Jesus repeatedly denounced the Pharisees for their additions to the Law of God. Thus, we must be extremely careful about what laws we lay down for people. Does the Bible clearly state that contraception is sinful, or that people are obligated to have as many children as possible? If the Bible does not say these things, we need to fear God and be frightened of adding to His Word.[13]

Jordan argues also that the views of early Protestant Reformers on contraception are unreliable because they were heavily influenced by not just the Bible.....
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#122
May 14, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right on target on this..
If you assume most of he children of Christians will remain Christians, and each family would have 4 or 5 children and be fruitful and mutlipy like Jesus commanded, we could make this a christian country again.
No chance with 1 or 2 children. That is why Prots have become less than 50% of the country for the first time. Before the Pill they were 70%.
I fully agree. The next problem we have today is legalizing same sex marriages, there will never be any offspring from that union nor should there be.

As for as contraception being a mortal sin (that is catholic speak by the way) the only mortal sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#123
May 14, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I fully agree. The next problem we have today is legalizing same sex marriages, there will never be any offspring from that union nor should there be.
As for as contraception being a mortal sin (that is catholic speak by the way) the only mortal sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
You are confusing mortal sins and the unpardonable sin. IF you kill somebody and die without confessing , you are hell bound. Same as adultery and many others.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#124
May 14, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You are confusing mortal sins and the unpardonable sin. IF you kill somebody and die without confessing , you are hell bound. Same as adultery and many others.
No, I am not confused, just trying to draw out some of your actual beliefs. Some coc teach the same things only with different terminology. They say any un-confessed sin will send a person to hell even if they are unaware of the sin. Not much difference there.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#125
May 14, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I am not confused, just trying to draw out some of your actual beliefs. Some coc teach the same things only with different terminology. They say any un-confessed sin will send a person to hell even if they are unaware of the sin. Not much difference there.
Maybe you should read the CCC before you post on what the Church teaches.

You are wrong on that last statement. The CC teaches for you to Sin you have to know it is a Sin and do it anyway knowing you will be sinning.

Sometimes you can intentionally sin and still not be held accountable. For example, if you commit suicide, which might be a sin in most cases to prevent a larger sin from happening , it is not a sin.

A famous example is a Catholic priest St Maxamillian Kolbe, He was a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp. They were selecting people to be shot because of what some prisoner had done. They picked a man who had his family with him. Father Kolbe volunteered himself knowing he was getting killed because the man had a family. He committed suicide.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#126
May 14, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe you should read the CCC before you post on what the Church teaches.
You are wrong on that last statement. The CC teaches for you to Sin you have to know it is a Sin and do it anyway knowing you will be sinning.
Sometimes you can intentionally sin and still not be held accountable. For example, if you commit suicide, which might be a sin in most cases to prevent a larger sin from happening , it is not a sin.
A famous example is a Catholic priest St Maxamillian Kolbe, He was a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp. They were selecting people to be shot because of what some prisoner had done. They picked a man who had his family with him. Father Kolbe volunteered himself knowing he was getting killed because the man had a family. He committed suicide.
I am not wrong, that part of my statement was referring to coc beliefs and how they are similar to yours. Some coc say any sin will send you to hell, catholics pick and choose which ones they believe warrants eternal death.

Evangelicals lean toward the grace of God having the power overcome sin. Are you sure you were a former baptist-you should know this stuff.

Eph 1:11In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Who is it that opens the seal?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#127
May 15, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not wrong, that part of my statement was referring to coc beliefs and how they are similar to yours. Some coc say any sin will send you to hell, catholics pick and choose which ones they believe warrants eternal death.
Evangelicals lean toward the grace of God having the power overcome sin. Are you sure you were a former baptist-you should know this stuff.
Eph 1:11In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Who is it that opens the seal?
I was Southern Baptist many years ago. First Baptist Church of Addis. About 30-40 in attendance.

I love this seal thing. I like it when an ex Catholic says he is not Catholic anymore. There is no thing as an ex Catholic. There are only fallen away Catholics.

CCC

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.[82] Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.[83] The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.[84] 1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."[85] "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."[86] The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"[87] with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#128
May 15, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not wrong, that part of my statement was referring to coc beliefs and how they are similar to yours. Some coc say any sin will send you to hell, catholics pick and choose which ones they believe warrants eternal death.
Evangelicals lean toward the grace of God having the power overcome sin. Are you sure you were a former baptist-you should know this stuff.
Eph 1:11In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Who is it that opens the seal?
I forgot to say that seal is not an 'envelope'. It is a 'mark'. Nothing is opened.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#129
May 15, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I forgot to say that seal is not an 'envelope'. It is a 'mark'. Nothing is opened.
Where does God live?

Explain what adoption means.

When we are sealed in Christ it is only a down payment with the promise of more to come. God owns us, we are his possession both individually and corporately. God does not break his promises.

Now what is the promise of God? Throughout the bible he promises to send a redeemer. He adopts us as his own, redeems us, cleanses us, dresses us in white linen gives us a home with him and calls us his very own.

Some don't believe God can do this-that his promise depends on us-how well we preform.

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