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101 - 120 of 129 Comments Last updated May 15, 2013
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#101
May 13, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Col 2:11-12 clearly speaks of an operation on man made without hands BY GOD. I ask Johnny once did this mean water baptism also has a Spiritual aspect as well in which he agreed.
However, how many knew this when they were baptized yet God still acted IN BAPTISM. I guess the question is: how much knowledge is required before baptism is valid? To most coc conservatives, they insist one MUST know "WHY" he is being baptized- its purpose or they say the baptism doesn't count. In other words, if a person fails to understand that baptism is the purpose in order to be forgiven of sins, he is lost no matter how much faith in Jesus he has.
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This question is why I think the difference between FOR and UNTO in Acts 2:38 is important. I believe that the first converts on Pentecost would only know what Peter told them. He simply told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ unto remission of sin, and they would receive the gift of the Spirit. The whole purpose there was for being guilty of the death of Christ. They would receive the Spirit and forgiveness for repentance and baptism.

Isn't belief and repentance unto remission of sins as well? Baptism itself doesn't get the job done. Generally, look at the other conversion accounts in Acts and see how much they knew before being baptized. They knew they had to be baptized in the name and authority of Jesus Christ. They had to believe Jesus is the Son of God. They had to believe with their whole heart. They had to have some knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

Peter told the house of Cornelius that whoever believes on Him through His name would receive remission of sins. I am seeing that remission of sins was not the PURPOSE of baptism, remission was a RESULT of being baptized. But that's what I see. How can I judge what someone else sees? How do I or anyone else know what's in someone else's heart? Let's ask this question-where is the example of someone being baptized for the WRONG reasons in scripture? Simon the sorcerer? The 12 in Acts 19? Simon was a heart problem, not a knowledge problem. The 12 was a knowledge problem-but about the Spirit and Jesus, not baptisms purpose.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#102
May 13, 2013
 
Reading Randy and Bobby's last responses, here's another thought:

There has been much debate over the purpose of baptism, how much do we have to know. There are great passages in Scripture that discuss this- Romans 6, Galatians 3, Colossians 2, Ephesians 4, 1 Peter 3, and others as well. We must all realize that for first century converts, most of these writings were after the fact of their baptisms. They didn't have copies of these scriptures to read before they obeyed. We have no record of apostolic seminars on baptism's purpose in the first century.

As Bobby said, we don't have all the answers on every subject. The first century believers didn't. Faith does make the difference. Perhaps believing in God, trusting in Jesus Christ, having faith in His promises enough to obey what He has commanded, knowing that God keeps His promises, is sufficient knowledge.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#103
May 13, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
What if it had made the canon would you be obeying it? Or lets put it another way, what if you are a catholic and believe it is part of the canon would you still be saved?
Was John right when he said this speaking of the antichrist: It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichristódenying the Father and the Son.
I am trying to make the case that we should be careful how we judge one another:-)
Bobby this isn't about judging someone else. I am not condemning Mike-have no authority nor desire to do so. False teaching however we do have the obligation to stand and speak against. You've been doing a good job of it against catholicism, and hope you continue to do so.

Does the catholic system produce disciples of Jesus? I think this is a valid question. It certainly produces disciples of the Catholic church-and those aren't the same things. Baptists do not accept sprinkling as a mode of scriptural baptism. In good conscience I cannot accept sprinkling either. Sprinkling does not fulfill the command to be baptized.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#104
May 13, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby this isn't about judging someone else. I am not condemning Mike-have no authority nor desire to do so. False teaching however we do have the obligation to stand and speak against. You've been doing a good job of it against catholicism, and hope you continue to do so.
Does the catholic system produce disciples of Jesus? I think this is a valid question. It certainly produces disciples of the Catholic church-and those aren't the same things. Baptists do not accept sprinkling as a mode of scriptural baptism. In good conscience I cannot accept sprinkling either. Sprinkling does not fulfill the command to be baptized.
I do not believe becoming a theologian is a requirement to our salvation. I think all of us hold to some teaching that is false. So, who is the false teacher and what does that mean?

I think this is worth our time to consider:

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/comment...
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#105
May 13, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby this isn't about judging someone else. I am not condemning Mike-have no authority nor desire to do so. False teaching however we do have the obligation to stand and speak against. You've been doing a good job of it against catholicism, and hope you continue to do so.
Does the catholic system produce disciples of Jesus? I think this is a valid question. It certainly produces disciples of the Catholic church-and those aren't the same things. Baptists do not accept sprinkling as a mode of scriptural baptism. In good conscience I cannot accept sprinkling either. Sprinkling does not fulfill the command to be baptized.
Dave and most Protestants completely ignore there has existed a Church for 350 years without a Canon, and 1630 after the Canon. What they refuse to believe is the Church taught the same thing before the Bible as after the Bible was created.

These Saints of the Church gave up their lives to the Romans for believing what the Apostles taught to them by letter and tradition.

I will give you just a few writings from the Fathers about how Baptism was considered from the beginning until now.

I know Dave will say, well that is just the writings of men, not from the Bible. These men were either taught by the Apostles or by one of the immediate successors of the Apostles.

Protestants believe the words of men too. Except their words are from today 1600 years after the Bible. You read the Bible, decides what it means, write down your sermon, and then say it in Church. You are telling them to believe the words of a man, because it is your interpretation, a man's.

The men I will quote is not their interpretation, it is what the early Church taught them.

But if Bobby disagrees with you , you try to sway him what you believe is right, but the HS speaks to him too. You think you are right and his is wrong. Sola Scriptura cannot make anybody wrong who believes in it.

The testimony of the Didache is seconded by other early Christian writings. Hippolytus of Rome said, "If water is scarce, whether as a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available" (The Apostolic Tradition, 21 [A.D. 215]). Pope Cornelius I wrote that as Novatian was about to die, "he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring" (Letter to Fabius of Antioch [A.D. 251]; cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:4311).

Cyprian advised that no one should be "disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lordís grace" (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69:12 [A.D. 255]). Tertullian described baptism by saying that it is done "with so great simplicity, without pomp, without any considerable novelty of preparation, and finally, without cost, a man is baptized in water, and amid the utterance of some few words, is sprinkled, and then rises again, not much (or not at all) the cleaner" (On Baptism, 2 [A.D. 203]). Obviously, Tertullian did not consider baptism by immersion the only valid form, since he says one is only sprinkled and thus comes up from the water "not much (or not at all) the cleaner."

Lets see, will I believe writings of Dave (2013) or the writings of those taught by the Apostles and by the Church they started, the only Church for 1500 years?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#106
May 13, 2013
 
Mike your church must rely on scripture as well as any of the rest of us. There is no man/pope/people alive that was with the apostles. You guys have nothing that the rest of don't have except your traditions of men.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#107
May 13, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Mike your church must rely on scripture as well as any of the rest of us. There is no man/pope/people alive that was with the apostles. You guys have nothing that the rest of don't have except your traditions of men.
The Church created the Bible and follows every scripture in them. We also follow the Traditons of men, the Apostles.

Why do you ignore Paul's Traditions, when he tells Bishop Timothy to do follow them.

You follow the Traditions of men too. An Altar call with no Altar? Where is that in the bible. It is a Tradition of man from 1500.

What about these? None of these are in the Bible. All are beliefs or phrases from the traditions of Men.

The Bible (Men determined what scriptures were the inspired and inerrant word of God. You believe in this tradition.) Bible is not in the Bible.
Dedication of Children
Age of Accountability
Office of Pastor
Rededicate your Life
Revival
Once Saved Always Saved
"Giving your Life to the Lord"
Ask Jesus into your heart
The Rapture
Invisible Church
Personal Lord and Savior
Eternal Security
Total Depravity of Man
Folding you hands and bowing your heads.
Lords Day meeting without the breaking of the Bread
Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior
Denominations
Moving your letter
Congregational hiring of preacher
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#108
May 13, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
The Church created the Bible and follows every scripture in them. We also follow the Traditons of men, the Apostles.
Why do you ignore Paul's Traditions, when he tells Bishop Timothy to do follow them.
You follow the Traditions of men too. An Altar call with no Altar? Where is that in the bible. It is a Tradition of man from 1500.
What about these? None of these are in the Bible. All are beliefs or phrases from the traditions of Men.
The Bible (Men determined what scriptures were the inspired and inerrant word of God. You believe in this tradition.) Bible is not in the Bible.
Dedication of Children
Age of Accountability
Office of Pastor
Rededicate your Life
Revival
Once Saved Always Saved
"Giving your Life to the Lord"
Ask Jesus into your heart
The Rapture
Invisible Church
Personal Lord and Savior
Eternal Security
Total Depravity of Man
Folding you hands and bowing your heads.
Lords Day meeting without the breaking of the Bread
Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior
Denominations
Moving your letter
Congregational hiring of preacher
In the original sense to create means to make something out of nothing. Catholics did not create the bible as the scriptures were already written.

And, you do not have any apostles. No where does the scripture tell us to expect nor elect new apostles.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#109
May 13, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not believe becoming a theologian is a requirement to our salvation. I think all of us hold to some teaching that is false. So, who is the false teacher and what does that mean?
I think this is worth our time to consider:
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/comment...
I agree that it does not take becoming a theologian to be a Christian. Are we all wrong on some things? Sure we are. Look at the very passage you quoted Bobby from Galatians, look at 2 Peter 2, read 1 Timothy 4. Is there any doubt in your mind that the RCC doesn't fulfill these scriptures? They are not the only ones no doubt. The Holy Spirit continuously said according to Paul that these had DEPARTED FROM THE FAITH. Check out the attitudes of false teachers in those passages. How many do we know do fulfill these scriptures? And why would we not expose it when we see it?

Condemning the doctrine and exposing it is a far cry from judging someone's soul and eternal destiny. But we also must warn people of the consequences, lest we be found guilty of their blood.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#110
May 13, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Dave and most Protestants completely ignore there has existed a Church for 350 years without a Canon, and 1630 after the Canon. What they refuse to believe is the Church taught the same thing before the Bible as after the Bible was created.

*Not ignoring anything Mike. The church didn't exist 350 years without the Bible. Figment of Catholic wishful thinking. The canon was finished no later than 95-96 AD. The Catholic church also has not continuously taught the same thing since the beginning. Look up how many doctrines have changed over the years in Catholicism.

I know Dave will say, well that is just the writings of men, not from the Bible. These men were either taught by the Apostles or by one of the immediate successors of the Apostles.

*You are right. They are just men like we are. If we read our Bibles, we are as taught by the apostles as they were.

Protestants believe the words of men too. Except their words are from today 1600 years after the Bible. You read the Bible, decides what it means, write down your sermon, and then say it in Church. You are telling them to believe the words of a man, because it is your interpretation, a man's.
The men I will quote is not their interpretation, it is what the early Church taught them.

*Really? It's not "their interpretation"? I think we all beg to differ with that statement. The "early church fathers" were but mere men as well.

But if Bobby disagrees with you , you try to sway him what you believe is right, but the HS speaks to him too. You think you are right and his is wrong. Sola Scriptura cannot make anybody wrong who believes in it.

*The Holy Spirit "speaks" to us? What are you trying to say? Jesus believed in sola scriptura by the way.

Lets see, will I believe writings of Dave (2013) or the writings of those taught by the Apostles and by the Church they started, the only Church for 1500 years?
*I am but a mere mortal Mike. I don't speak from Sinai. But my words are just as valueable as theirs, because they didn't speak from Sinai either. My words are also at least no more in error than theirs, because they differ from the scriptures God gave us. That's the test-how do we match up with scripture. You can discuss sola scriptura all you like, but catholicism is not abiding in the truth of God's revealed word. I am intelligent enough to read for myself and figure that out from the scriptures. I don't need nor desire having someone tell me what I should believe, because they've been around forever and just can't be wrong.

Information and technology is a wonderful thing. Many Mormons are leaving that system-they are learning that they've been lied to or fed misinformation. So when they see the truth, they leave. Catholicism, coc, any protestant group-if people explore what is being taught, search and desire the truth-if they don't find truth, they will leave. Light is a great disinfectant.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#111
May 13, 2013
 
The Church created the Bible and follows every scripture in them. We also follow the Traditons of men, the Apostles.
Dave P-church didn't create Bible, God did.

Why do you ignore Paul's Traditions, when he tells Bishop Timothy to do follow them.
Dave P-Timothy not called bishop.

You follow the Traditions of men too. An Altar call with no Altar? Where is that in the bible. It is a Tradition of man from 1500.
Dave P-agree 1000%.

What about these? None of these are in the Bible. All are beliefs or phrases from the traditions of Men.
Dave P-language of Ashdod. Agree in principle.

The Bible (Men determined what scriptures were the inspired and inerrant word of God. You believe in this tradition.) Bible is not in the Bible.
Dave P-men did not decide what was scripture was inerrant and inspired. God did. "Bible" is in the "Bible"-the greek word biblos simply means book. The scriptures are often called scripture or "graphe" in the greek. The OT, some NT passages, and Paul's letters according to Peter are all "graphe" or scripture according to scripture.

Dedication of Children-agree.
Age of Accountability-appears in principle in Romans 7; not by title.
Office of Pastor-actually an elder or bishop according to Paul.
Rededicate your Life-agree it's Ashdod.
Revival-Ashdod.
Once Saved Always Saved- agree it's Ashdod.
"Giving your Life to the Lord"- agree it's Ashdod.
Ask Jesus into your heart- agree it's Ashdod.
The Rapture-absolutely Ashdod.
Invisible Church-?
Personal Lord and Savior-agree it's Ashdod.
Eternal Security-OSAS-already mentioned.
Total Depravity of Man-agree it's Ashdod.
Folding you hands and bowing your heads-there is scriptural precedence for both of these.
Lords Day meeting without the breaking of the Bread-agree, don't see this in scripture.
Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior-Agree
Denominations-1 Corinthians 1.
Moving your letter-what is this?
Congregational hiring of preacher-there is scripture for a located ministry so to speak. Nowhere do we see an organization "assigning" preachers to any spot.

All churches have "traditions" in them. Traditions aren't necessarily wrong or sinful-unless we allow them to supercede or replace God's commands.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#112
May 14, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
The Church created the Bible and follows every scripture in them. We also follow the Traditons of men, the Apostles.
Dave P-church didn't create Bible, God did.
Why do you ignore Paul's Traditions, when he tells Bishop Timothy to do follow them.
Dave P-Timothy not called bishop.
You follow the Traditions of men too. An Altar call with no Altar? Where is that in the bible. It is a Tradition of man from 1500.
Dave P-agree 1000%.
What about these? None of these are in the Bible. All are beliefs or phrases from the traditions of Men.
Dave P-language of Ashdod. Agree in principle.
The Bible (Men determined what scriptures were the inspired and inerrant word of God. You believe in this tradition.) Bible is not in the Bible.
Dave P-men did not decide what was scripture was inerrant and inspired. God did. "Bible" is in the "Bible"-the greek word biblos simply means book. The scriptures are often called scripture or "graphe" in the greek. The OT, some NT passages, and Paul's letters according to Peter are all "graphe" or scripture according to scripture.
Dedication of Children-agree.
Age of Accountability-appears in principle in Romans 7; not by title.
Office of Pastor-actually an elder or bishop according to Paul.
Rededicate your Life-agree it's Ashdod.
Revival-Ashdod.
Once Saved Always Saved- agree it's Ashdod.
"Giving your Life to the Lord"- agree it's Ashdod.
Ask Jesus into your heart- agree it's Ashdod.
The Rapture-absolutely Ashdod.
Invisible Church-?
Personal Lord and Savior-agree it's Ashdod.
Eternal Security-OSAS-already mentioned.
Total Depravity of Man-agree it's Ashdod.
Folding you hands and bowing your heads-there is scriptural precedence for both of these.
Lords Day meeting without the breaking of the Bread-agree, don't see this in scripture.
Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior-Agree
Denominations-1 Corinthians 1.
Moving your letter-what is this?
Congregational hiring of preacher-there is scripture for a located ministry so to speak. Nowhere do we see an organization "assigning" preachers to any spot.
All churches have "traditions" in them. Traditions aren't necessarily wrong or sinful-unless we allow them to supercede or replace God's commands.
Wow it is amazing how much the catholics have in common with the coc:-) I have been saying that for a long time. It is because both hold Armenian views. That view always boils down to the grace verses works for salvation issue, that man is basically good having the ability to pull himself up from the mud pit of sin with maybe a little help from God.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#113
May 14, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow it is amazing how much the catholics have in common with the coc:-) I have been saying that for a long time. It is because both hold Armenian views. That view always boils down to the grace verses works for salvation issue, that man is basically good having the ability to pull himself up from the mud pit of sin with maybe a little help from God.
Bobby: you are missing he point. Prots constantly hammer Catholics on the teaching man made traditions when every Church has man made traditions.

One thing is different from Catholics and the Protestants however. Our TRADITIONS come from the Apostles. Our other traditions like fasting on Friday, ashes on foreheads are small traditons created by the Church like your Church does.

Since: May 10

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#114
May 14, 2013
 
xxx wrote:
<quoted text>
I would encourage them to follow the doctrine they felt was correct, regardless of how I felt about it. This is why I told Randy in the past that if he really believed he had to be baptized to be saved that he should go ahead and do it.
Itís better to be in honest error than to be in blatant disobedienceóregardless of whether or not the person is correct or incorrect in what actually constitutes disobedience.
You are not serious on this are you. YOu would encourage feelings over truth?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#115
May 14, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
You are not serious on this are you. YOu would encourage feelings over truth?
All Prots will change their truths based on feelings and the demand of their congregation.

The biggest in recent history if the teaching of contraception. All mainline Churchs said in 1930 this was a serious sin. Now is some cases it is even encouraged.

Only the Catholic Church still 'teaches 'it is a sin. The CC is the only Church that has not change in the areas of faith and morals.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#116
May 14, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby: you are missing he point. Prots constantly hammer Catholics on the teaching man made traditions when every Church has man made traditions.
One thing is different from Catholics and the Protestants however. Our TRADITIONS come from the Apostles. Our other traditions like fasting on Friday, ashes on foreheads are small traditons created by the Church like your Church does.
I can't believe that your traditions come from the apostles especially when you have so many priest abusing alter boys and your so called apostle says nothing. Having said that some, traditions are good.

Our traditions, in my specific church are not binding. For instance we have a fathers day car show but it has nothing to do with doctrine.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#117
May 14, 2013
 
Mike I do not believe that the contraception issue has ever been a sin. Being a eunuch is not a sin in the bible but their owners who made them that way were not even charged for doing that to their slaves. I believe that was a sin.

Abortion is a sin! Not the same thing as contraception-I know you will disagree and I know why. I agree that it is perfectly ok for those catholics who do practice the issue according to catholic guidelines-but scripture does not bind it, it is a catholic tradition-clearly not a sin.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#118
May 14, 2013
 
One more thing Mike, I actually like the fact that catholics have more children because if we have an argument against contraception it would be found in the command to regenerate and fill the earth. The unbelieving world are reproducing their seed much faster than christians and I partly blame that as one reason the church is declining.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#119
May 14, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow it is amazing how much the catholics have in common with the coc:-) I have been saying that for a long time. It is because both hold Armenian views. That view always boils down to the grace verses works for salvation issue, that man is basically good having the ability to pull himself up from the mud pit of sin with maybe a little help from God.
We don't want to rehash an "armenian vs. calvinism" debate here do we? Many calvinists do in practice teach works are essential to salvation-having conversations at work about this very thing. Mike probably would have much to say on this.

I don't agree with how you categorize free will views either-man is basically good, can get out of the mud himself with just a small hand from God, grace vs works-free will believers do not think like this Bobby. Until we can come to terms on how we talk to each other (in general, not you and I personally), we will never get any progress made.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#120
May 14, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
One more thing Mike, I actually like the fact that catholics have more children because if we have an argument against contraception it would be found in the command to regenerate and fill the earth. The unbelieving world are reproducing their seed much faster than christians and I partly blame that as one reason the church is declining.
You are right on target on this..

If you assume most of he children of Christians will remain Christians, and each family would have 4 or 5 children and be fruitful and mutlipy like Jesus commanded, we could make this a christian country again.

No chance with 1 or 2 children. That is why Prots have become less than 50% of the country for the first time. Before the Pill they were 70%.

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