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Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#81
May 10, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
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You are correct. I know various groups and none I know baptizes to be a member of their group. I have heard of such but personally do not know anyone who does this. Most people are baptized for Godly reasons- reasons built upon their understanding that Jesus is the way, the truth, the Life. Please elaborate on your last question- "But REALLY, what are we baptized FOR?"
You have found the door for understanding the difference between legalism and grace. It always comes when we realize our own deficiencies and know that everyone deals with it because we are all sinners who fall short of God's demands for righteousness when that achievement is primarily based on human ability.

Here is wiki's definition:

Legalism, in Christian theology, is a usually pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit. Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God's grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#82
May 10, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct. I know various groups and none I know baptizes to be a member of their group. I have heard of such but personally do not know anyone who does this. Most people are baptized for Godly reasons- reasons built upon their understanding that Jesus is the way, the truth, the Life. Please elaborate on your last question- "But REALLY, what are we baptized FOR?"
Out of time now, but I will later on. Think we're really covering it all over these threads now. But just think, those of us from coc backgrounds especially, what were we told we are to be baptized for? What was the thrust of the teaching? What were we thinking? And ultimately, what was Peter saying about baptism's purpose?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#83
May 10, 2013
 
When I was baptized, naturally I was run through the drill of why I needed to be. I had been attending coc pretty much my entire life, so I knew it was about forgiveness, being added to the church, the Spirit, etc.

But what had convinced me was a "deal" I had made in my own mind. I thought before I was baptized that I needed to clean my speech up-I could cuss like a sailor. I did ok on my own for three days. On the fourth day, I really messed up. At that point, I finally realized I couldn't fix myself and my problems. I needed Jesus.

My point was, I wasn't baptized simply "for" remission of sins. I was convicted. I knew where I stood before God, I knew I couldn't make it on my own. I wasn't baptized simply to fulfill a command to do so. I didn't look at it as an obligation or even "obeying the gospel", even though that's a scriptural term.

My fear is that we tend to read Acts 2:38 and other scriptures as "doctrinal essays" as in college courses, but forget that it was written to real people like us, in the same situations in life we're in, same fears, etc. What were they baptized for? Because some preacher gave a theological presentation on Romans 6 or Colossians 2? No, they weren't written yet. Did Peter give them full details of the meaning of baptism? We probably tell people more about the meaning of baptism today than Peter did on Pentecost-at least more than is recorded.

We worry about how much people today know about baptism before they get in the water, and if they don't know enough it don't count. All the first converts knew was what Peter told them. Isn't that enough?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#84
May 11, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
When I was baptized, naturally I was run through the drill of why I needed to be. I had been attending coc pretty much my entire life, so I knew it was about forgiveness, being added to the church, the Spirit, etc.
But what had convinced me was a "deal" I had made in my own mind. I thought before I was baptized that I needed to clean my speech up-I could cuss like a sailor. I did ok on my own for three days. On the fourth day, I really messed up. At that point, I finally realized I couldn't fix myself and my problems. I needed Jesus.
My point was, I wasn't baptized simply "for" remission of sins. I was convicted. I knew where I stood before God, I knew I couldn't make it on my own. I wasn't baptized simply to fulfill a command to do so. I didn't look at it as an obligation or even "obeying the gospel", even though that's a scriptural term.
My fear is that we tend to read Acts 2:38 and other scriptures as "doctrinal essays" as in college courses, but forget that it was written to real people like us, in the same situations in life we're in, same fears, etc. What were they baptized for? Because some preacher gave a theological presentation on Romans 6 or Colossians 2? No, they weren't written yet. Did Peter give them full details of the meaning of baptism? We probably tell people more about the meaning of baptism today than Peter did on Pentecost-at least more than is recorded.
We worry about how much people today know about baptism before they get in the water, and if they don't know enough it don't count. All the first converts knew was what Peter told them. Isn't that enough?
Thanks for that touching testimony. The only thing I can say about it is that I have heard the same testimony coming from others who had a faith only experience and were water baptized later. I do not desire to take anything away from your wonderful experience. In my mind I see no doubt that you are a child of God.

Since: Jul 11

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#85
May 11, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
We worry about how much people today know about baptism before they get in the water, and if they don't know enough it don't count. All the first converts knew was what Peter told them. Isn't that enough?
But, what if people today do not understand the purpose of baptism as they did when Peter told the Jews? Trust me, many people today do not thus why many conservative coc say people who do not understand baptisms purpose, are lost.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#86
May 11, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for that touching testimony. The only thing I can say about it is that I have heard the same testimony coming from others who had a faith only experience and were water baptized later. I do not desire to take anything away from your wonderful experience. In my mind I see no doubt that you are a child of God.
Thank you sir.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#87
May 11, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
But, what if people today do not understand the purpose of baptism as they did when Peter told the Jews? Trust me, many people today do not thus why many conservative coc say people who do not understand baptisms purpose, are lost.
It's hard to look in 20/20 hindsight. I would ask all those conservatives out there, how much did you truly understand? I have been asked several times out there about people in the last two centuries, if they didn't read or understand properly would they be lost? My answer was that they were responsible for reacting to what they did know, not what they didn't. Let God decide their fate.

Will God do His work in baptism on the person who doesn't completely understand every aspect? At least 3 of us have concluded "yes". The simple purpose of baptism when Peter preached at Pentecost was to respond due to being convicted of the sin of killing Christ. They were told two things they would receive.

And who can judge in everyone else's mind what baptism means? I can't. All we can do is teach, and let others water and God give the increase.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#88
May 11, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
It's hard to look in 20/20 hindsight. I would ask all those conservatives out there, how much did you truly understand? I have been asked several times out there about people in the last two centuries, if they didn't read or understand properly would they be lost? My answer was that they were responsible for reacting to what they did know, not what they didn't. Let God decide their fate.
Will God do His work in baptism on the person who doesn't completely understand every aspect? At least 3 of us have concluded "yes". The simple purpose of baptism when Peter preached at Pentecost was to respond due to being convicted of the sin of killing Christ. They were told two things they would receive.
And who can judge in everyone else's mind what baptism means? I can't. All we can do is teach, and let others water and God give the increase.
There is that issue of Cornelius receiving the spirit before and without water baptism. IT seems to me that you three are leaving out spirit baptism as part of the equation. Water baptism has an important place but it cannot replace or duplicate spirit baptism.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#89
May 11, 2013
 
I was just thinking about the understanding part. I see you guys as being saved before you received water baptism and just because you are misunderstanding that part, it does not keep you from being a Christian:-) This has been my position all along.
Tim

Zerbst, Germany

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#90
May 11, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
Today, we have this concept that CHURCH is somewhere “we go”- a place we meet to “worship God” as if rest of the week we do not “worship God”. The CHURCH has become “a building” rather than saved sinners “called out” to server one another in love.
When the early church assembled in homes, they were FAMILY oriented, came as they were, not diked up in a three piece suit or their “Sunday best.” I’m not saying its wrong to dress-up BUUTT many sinners are intimidated by this. I have heard people say they didn’t have anything to wear to “church”, meaning they only had blue jeans and such but not the “formal attire” most Christians wear when they “go to Church”. This alone makes them feel LESS and out of place. Home churching eliminates the need to dress to impress or whatever reason we dress in three piece suits when we “go to Church.” As long as one is dressed modestly, the suits and such are not needed. I seriously doubt that the early church diked up for the Sunday “worship service.” They came together, ate together, sang “Psalms”, partook in Communion together as one family unto God IN HOMES. There wasn’t men dressed up in suits passing out Welches and wafers. There wasn’t song leaders. There was no pews for the “worshipers” to sit and look toward a stage where one man ran the show. There was no invitation song.
I’m not necessarily saying these things are wrong but they do seemed to have robbed the meaning of “church” and it does hinder the work of God. Sinners should feel welcomed not come to a place where everyone is suited up like they are attending a business meeting or something. The more I look at HOME CHURCHING, the more it seems the best choice. Any religious movement that places undue stress on the place of meeting rather than the assembly itself is flawed in my opinion. Telling people they MUST attend a Church building, that in order to have a church, you must have a nice, traditional church building, one owned by the church in which to assemble, is dead wrong.
Jesus told the woman of Samaria that the place of worship was not the important thing, either the "maintain" (Gerizim) as in the case of the Samaritans or in Jerusalem (Jews). What mattered, Jesus said, is that God be worshiped in spirit and in truth, this is the emphasis of the gospel (John 4: 21-24) Again, I’m not condemning Church Buildings- just seems the Church Building has robbed the true sense of the assembly of the Saints.
you in this your ussa are out of normal values and these your home churchs will be resulted in new sects. Everybody will ground own sect
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#91
May 11, 2013
 
Tim wrote:
<quoted text>
you in this your ussa are out of normal values and these your home churchs will be resulted in new sects. Everybody will ground own sect
Tim: What Church do you belong to there in Germany?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#92
May 11, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
There is that issue of Cornelius receiving the spirit before and without water baptism. IT seems to me that you three are leaving out spirit baptism as part of the equation. Water baptism has an important place but it cannot replace or duplicate spirit baptism.
I still believe "Spirit baptism" involves all the operations that God does on the believer when he is baptized. I still believe, as does Randy, that all these things happen when one is baptized in water. The person doesn't need full knowledge of all that goes on. We do still believe baptism is necessary to be saved, because of the Bible record. But perfect knowledge is not required.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#93
May 11, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
I was just thinking about the understanding part. I see you guys as being saved before you received water baptism and just because you are misunderstanding that part, it does not keep you from being a Christian:-) This has been my position all along.
Our timing seems a little off from yours.

Perhaps this is one area I disagree with most evangelicals. I do believe that if we respond to the gospel, that God will do His part even if we have some lack of knowledge. I still view baptism as part of that response. Most, as you acknowledge, will be baptized to obey God's command and respond. If we both view it as something that should be done or must be done-and Bobby you do believe that a believer should be baptized from what I've heard from you-then why do so many congregations save up their baptisms, put them off for a certain time? You cannot deny the Bible record that they were baptized immediately.

There needs to be a Biblical medium on baptism. It isn't the be all end all, nor is it an insignificant optional event. Question-what would be wrong with telling people who want to become Christians to respond just like those on Pentecost did?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#94
May 11, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Our timing seems a little off from yours.
Perhaps this is one area I disagree with most evangelicals. I do believe that if we respond to the gospel, that God will do His part even if we have some lack of knowledge. I still view baptism as part of that response. Most, as you acknowledge, will be baptized to obey God's command and respond. If we both view it as something that should be done or must be done-and Bobby you do believe that a believer should be baptized from what I've heard from you-then why do so many congregations save up their baptisms, put them off for a certain time? You cannot deny the Bible record that they were baptized immediately.
There needs to be a Biblical medium on baptism. It isn't the be all end all, nor is it an insignificant optional event. Question-what would be wrong with telling people who want to become Christians to respond just like those on Pentecost did?
Have you considered that there was always water available for the water baptisms we hear about in those early conversions. I am certain that there were many thousands of water baptisms that were not as simple. It's like they purposefully had their sermons near water. Surely you know that an Eskimo could not survive getting wet unless he had heated water and extra dry clothes. There are to many exceptions for me to make it the rule. It reminds me of the coc teaching I used to endure. They would say that any sin that has not been confessed is an automatic death sentence. My guess is that we sin every day multiple times without being aware of it. This is similar to placing water baptism as an obstacle to salvation in certain cases. Just does not sound much like the loving savior to create those obstacles or to allow them to prevent a person from coming to the cross and thus being saved.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#95
May 12, 2013
 
That is whey the early Church practiced pouring also because of the lack of water in certain areas.

Also a convert on his death bed could not be immersed.

This is from the Didache (The Teachings of the 12 Apostles) that almost made it in the Bible and written about 10 years after Jesus died.

Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#96
May 12, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
That is whey the early Church practiced pouring also because of the lack of water in certain areas.
Also a convert on his death bed could not be immersed.
This is from the Didache (The Teachings of the 12 Apostles) that almost made it in the Bible and written about 10 years after Jesus died.
Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.
Sounds like a legalistic formula to me, but at least there are options to fit the circumstance.

It is time for us to to head for church-a place where saints meet. Let us honor our mothers today...
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#97
May 12, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like a legalistic formula to me, but at least there are options to fit the circumstance.
It is time for us to to head for church-a place where saints meet. Let us honor our mothers today...
Come on Bobby. The baptizer has to fast before doing the baptism? This was wrote 10 years after Jesus' death, and "almost" made it into the Bible? The NT writers didn't seem to agree, not mentioning any of this stuff. Don't give this Ashdod talk any legitimacy by saying, "At least there are options to fit the circumstances".

Keep fighting the fight. This is unbiblical stuff, and you're standing firm on it. A place where saints meet. Quite impossible in the catholic religion isn't it?

Since: Jul 11

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#98
May 13, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I still believe "Spirit baptism" involves all the operations that God does on the believer when he is baptized. I still believe, as does Randy, that all these things happen when one is baptized in water. The person doesn't need full knowledge of all that goes on. We do still believe baptism is necessary to be saved, because of the Bible record. But perfect knowledge is not required.
Col 2:11-12 clearly speaks of an operation on man made without hands BY GOD. I ask Johnny once did this mean water baptism also has a Spiritual aspect as well in which he agreed.

However, how many knew this when they were baptized yet God still acted IN BAPTISM. I guess the question is: how much knowledge is required before baptism is valid? To most coc conservatives, they insist one MUST know "WHY" he is being baptized- its purpose or they say the baptism doesn't count. In other words, if a person fails to understand that baptism is the purpose in order to be forgiven of sins, he is lost no matter how much faith in Jesus he has.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#99
May 13, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Come on Bobby. The baptizer has to fast before doing the baptism? This was wrote 10 years after Jesus' death, and "almost" made it into the Bible? The NT writers didn't seem to agree, not mentioning any of this stuff. Don't give this Ashdod talk any legitimacy by saying, "At least there are options to fit the circumstances".
Keep fighting the fight. This is unbiblical stuff, and you're standing firm on it. A place where saints meet. Quite impossible in the catholic religion isn't it?
What if it had made the canon would you be obeying it? Or lets put it another way, what if you are a catholic and believe it is part of the canon would you still be saved?

Was John right when he said this speaking of the antichrist: It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

I am trying to make the case that we should be careful how we judge one another:-)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#100
May 13, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Col 2:11-12 clearly speaks of an operation on man made without hands BY GOD. I ask Johnny once did this mean water baptism also has a Spiritual aspect as well in which he agreed.
However, how many knew this when they were baptized yet God still acted IN BAPTISM. I guess the question is: how much knowledge is required before baptism is valid? To most coc conservatives, they insist one MUST know "WHY" he is being baptized- its purpose or they say the baptism doesn't count. In other words, if a person fails to understand that baptism is the purpose in order to be forgiven of sins, he is lost no matter how much faith in Jesus he has.
What if peter was right when he said: 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

If the word symbol is not the accurate word then we must stop using all the translation which use that word. Would we not be setting ourselves up for a fall if we tried to do that?

I guess what I am trying to say, is that none of us have the ability to have all the answers on every subject. So in the end we must rely on what-our faith.

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