1 John 1:9 – Walking in the Light

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#1
Apr 18, 2013
 
Redneck

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#2
Apr 18, 2013
 

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Really now makes sense only if you can prove John had them gnostic in mind
Bobby

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#3
Apr 18, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
Good message...
Barnsweb

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#4
Apr 18, 2013
 

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So John grouped himself in the 'we' of sinners or gnostics?:-) Hardly. The entire article is founded on a twisting of what John sad. It does not take his word as upright or true as written.

'Simple, straight, upright' are principles that will aid in understanding Scripture to gain what is true. Twisting and stretching to come to conclusions not directly given is a dangerous pathway to follow, yet people try to make crooked what God has made straight.

John starts his epistle with clear indication that 'we' are those who announced 'that which was from the beginning.'

The AENT is pretty much the same as the standard versions in this passage, but note how John developed the 'we' and see if a there is any good reason to turn 'we' into unsaved sinners who just need to confess their sin:

'We announce to you that which was from the beginning which we have heard and have seen with our eyes, looked upon, and handled with our handsw, that which is the Word of Life. And the life was manifested, and we have seen and do testify and announce to you the life which is eternal; which was with the Father and was revealed to us. And what we have seen and heard, we make known to you also that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Y'shua the Mashiyach. And these things we write to you that our joy in you may be complete. And this is the announcement which we have heard from him and declare to you, that Elohim is light and no darkness at all is in him. And if we say that we have fellowship with him and we walk in the darkness, we are liars and walk not in the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each other and the blood of Y'shua his Son cleanses us from all our sins. And if we say that we haven o sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all our iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us."

Sorry, the article is a rank lie. Read John 17 and see what Jesus said of those who have fellowship with Him and the Father and are one in their testimony to the world.

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#5
Apr 18, 2013
 
No. John makes it clear that he was addressing another group.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#6
Apr 18, 2013
 
Where does John make it clear he was addressing another group?

If you can't prove that to the exclusion of what he said in the opening chapter ... well, we'll see your proof first.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#7
Apr 18, 2013
 
In one sense I agree with barnsweb. We is not referring to lost sinners in the verse, or John is a lost sinner as well. We is referring to Christians. This also does not describe the conversion process. This is describing the Christian walk. I do agree though that Gnosticism is in view here, and can be one point of application. But this is all also true in a general sense too.
The key ideas of 1 John really come through in the Greek language.#1-"if". If appears many times. In chapter one, each time it is a third class conditional statement, which simply means it may or may not happen. Verse 7 is conditional. We know what happens when we walk in the light. But what if we don't? It is possible. If we don't walk in the light, we won't have fellowship, and won't be cleansed by the blood of Christ. Much is made of the cleansing being a constant action. But so is walking. If we aren't constantly walking in the light we are in trouble.
Barnsweb

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#8
Apr 19, 2013
 
We know there were those whose refusal to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, even if they believed he was a prophet of God, were on the wrong walk. "Unless you believe that I am He", and to merely believe Jesus Christ was a messenger of God, but only a man, is far short of what was taught by the apostles and prophets that came before them. Yet, in one sense He was a prophet, and in fact 'the Prophet' spoken by Moses and affirmed by Peter.

Isn't the core theme of I John 1 about walking in the light as children of God in Christ? Walking the walk He said we are to be walking in?

And He truly spoke regarding those who reject His words of light, and yet wills that all men come to repentence in following Him.

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#9
Apr 19, 2013
 
Respectfully, I disagre with you and Barnsweb on this. I believe the "if" is a reference to lost people- namely the Gnostics in the context. John would have no need to explain to Christians about seeing Jesus and feeling him and proving to them that he is the Christ nor would John need to explain to Christians that they sin.

"We announce to "YOU" that which was from the beginning which we have heard and have seen with our eyes, looked upon, and handled with our handsw, that which is the Word of Life."

The "YOU" above is not directed at Christian but to another group i.e., the Gnostics.

"And the life was manifested, and we have seen and do testify and announce to "YOU" the life which is eternal; which was with the Father and was revealed to us. And what we have seen and heard, we make known to "YOU" also that "YOU" may have fellowship with "US"; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Y'shua the Mashiyach."

Again, take notice that "TWO" groups are mentioned above. John is directing his statement to "YOU" who do not believe that His life was manifested in the flesh. He goes on to say that "we make this known to "YOU" A L S O that "YOU" may have fellowship with "US." The "US" is nonbelievers- the Gnostics.

"And this is the announcement which we have heard from him and declare to YOU, that Elohim is light and no darkness at all is in him. And if we say that we have fellowship with him and we walk in the darkness, we are liars and walk not in the truth."

Again, the message is declared to another group- the word "YOU" above are the Gnostics who believed sin was an illusion thus they thought they were walking in the light.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each other and the blood of Y'shua his Son cleanses us from all our sins. And if we say that we haven o sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all our iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us."

Now John states that the Gnostics can have fellowship with them if they acknowledge that they in fact sin. It was not Christians denying this. Christians know they sin. John was not telling saved people that they sin- they know this already. He was writing to combat Gnosticism. The entire context speaks of a group other than Christians. John is not saying a Christian bounces back and forth from light to darkness. The entire context deals with the Gnostics who claimed sin was an illusion and believed Jesus never came in human form. John wouldn't need to tell this to Christians nor would he need to tell Christians that they sin ... Christians know this already.

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#10
Apr 19, 2013
 
Ignore above post- had to make a correction.

Respectfully, I disagre with you and Barnsweb on this. I believe the "if" is a reference to lost people- namely the Gnostics in the context. John would have no need to explain to Christians about seeing Jesus and feeling him and proving to them that he is the Christ nor would John need to explain to Christians that they sin.

"We announce to "YOU" that which was from the beginning which we have heard and have seen with our eyes, looked upon, and handled with our hands, that which is the Word of Life."

The "YOU" above is not directed at Christian but to another group i.e., the Gnostics.

"And the life was manifested, and we have seen and do testify and announce to "YOU" the life which is eternal; which was with the Father and was revealed to us. And what we have seen and heard, we make known to "YOU" also that "YOU" may have fellowship with "US"; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Y'shua the Mashiyach."

Again, take notice that "TWO" groups are mentioned above. John is directing his statement to "YOU" who do not believe that His life was manifested in the flesh. He goes on to say that "we make this known to "YOU" A L S O that "YOU" may have fellowship with "US." The "US" is Christians amd the YOU are nonbelievers- the Gnostics.

"And this is the announcement which we have heard from him and declare to YOU, that Elohim is light and no darkness at all is in him. And if we say that we have fellowship with him and we walk in the darkness, we are liars and walk not in the truth."

Again, the message is declared to another group- the word "YOU" above are the Gnostics who believed sin was an illusion thus they thought they were walking in the light.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each other and the blood of Y'shua his Son cleanses us from all our sins. And if we say that we haven o sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all our iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us."

Now John states that the Gnostics can have fellowship with them if they acknowledge that they in fact sin. It was not Christians denying this. Christians know they sin. John was not telling saved people that they sin- they know this already. He was writing to combat Gnosticism. The entire context speaks of a group other than Christians. John is not saying a Christian bounces back and forth from light to darkness. The entire context deals with the Gnostics who claimed sin was an illusion and believed Jesus never came in human form. John wouldn't need to tell this to Christians nor would he need to tell Christians that they sin ... Christians know this already.
Barnsweb

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#11
Apr 19, 2013
 

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The rest of the book also confirms it was written to properly believing Christains and certain things they were instructed to do - no Gnostics.

It was more likely written to combat the theology taking hold that leaned toward 'once saved, always saved' and 'let's sin so grace may aboud'. No, I guess we'll just have different viewpoints on this, and I hope you see the message to the Set-Apart believers.

The apostles were to be His witnesses to the world, and I just don't think this epistle was written to unbelievers, as unbelievers who didn't acknowledge the Word was manifest in the flesh in actuality. Perhaps this was a warning to them to not pay any attention and avoid those who didn't accept the true gospel, but I don't think you've proven the book was written to the Gnostics. If it were only the belief of His being in the flesh and that was the issue they had, why the general directions to the Set-Apart believers on their manner of life?

Just can't see it alike at this time - the passages are truth though, and are certainly useful for doctrine and reproof of falsehoods.

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#12
Apr 19, 2013
 

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I want to clarify something. I am not saying that the book of 1 John was written to the Gnostics directly. Obviously, John was addressing Christians ‘concerning a problem with Gnosticism.’

Christians already knew the things John was declaring. It was not John having to tell them Jesus was real and alive in the flesh- Christians knew this already. Christians also know they sin thus no need to tell them something they already know. John was addressing people who denied these facts.

Apparently, Gnostics were trying to sway Christians away with their false teaching thus John wrote the letter to address both Christians who were being led astray by Gnosticism addressing the Gnostics who were leading them away.

The context shows two separate groups of people by the pronouns used of John. One group obviously knows Jesus came in the flesh and knows they sin and another group i.e., the Gnostics denied Jesus came in the flesh and denied sin.

Those walking in the light is a description of the saved. Those who believe Jesus didn’t come in the flesh and deny the fact they we all sin, are those walking in darkness.

Christians do not bounce back and forth from light to darkness. Jesus is our advocate and mediator according to Scripture and FOREVER lives to make intercession for us. I’m not promoting unconditional security so hopefully nobody takes me this way. I believe in conditional security … meaning that a Christian must “keep the faith”- meaning we always should trust Jesus not trust in our works which always will fall short. Keeping the faith means replying solely on Jesus and always trusting in Him which will produce good works from a heart motivated by love.

Like you said, this will just be one of those things we will have to disagree on.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#13
Apr 19, 2013
 
Bobby likes the message. It appears to approve merely confessing sins to be converted.

All the NT letters that I read are addressed to believers. They were the primary listeners. Yes they could take these truths out to their neighbors and such, and this particular letter was written to help combat a certain falsehood. But I wouldn't say it was written to unbelievers.

I believe this also has to apply to the everyday walk of the believer as well. No I don't think we voice back and forth between saved and lost. But we have to constantly walk in light. How many do we know walk in light for a time, then completely leave it?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#14
Apr 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Bobby likes the message. It appears to approve merely confessing sins to be converted.
All the NT letters that I read are addressed to believers. They were the primary listeners. Yes they could take these truths out to their neighbors and such, and this particular letter was written to help combat a certain falsehood. But I wouldn't say it was written to unbelievers.
I believe this also has to apply to the everyday walk of the believer as well. No I don't think we voice back and forth between saved and lost. But we have to constantly walk in light. How many do we know walk in light for a time, then completely leave it?
Dace are you aware how many verses speak of salvation by grace through faith only?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#15
Apr 19, 2013
 
Dave not Dace-sorry.

Here is a few of them:

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

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#16
Apr 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Bobby likes the message. It appears to approve merely confessing sins to be converted.
All the NT letters that I read are addressed to believers. They were the primary listeners. Yes they could take these truths out to their neighbors and such, and this particular letter was written to help combat a certain falsehood. But I wouldn't say it was written to unbelievers.
I believe this also has to apply to the everyday walk of the believer as well. No I don't think we voice back and forth between saved and lost. But we have to constantly walk in light. How many do we know walk in light for a time, then completely leave it?
But from other verses we know that mere acknowledgement of sins isn't all a sinner does to obey the gospel.

I still am convinced that John wrote his letter to combat the false teaching of Gnosticism.

If by walking in the light you mean keeping the faith ... I agree. If by walking in the light you mean staying fessed up ... I disagree. Walking in the light is one who keeps the faith, trusting not in good deeds but trusting in Jesus.

I don't think John was giving 1 John 1:9 as s formula to continue walking in the light.

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#17
Apr 19, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Bobby likes the message. It appears to approve merely confessing sins to be converted.
Not how I meant it at all. There are plenty of other verses that show other things we must to as a response to the gospel. John was just addrssing a certain issue that was leading some Christians astray.
Barnsweb

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#18
Apr 19, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Dave not Dace-sorry.
Here is a few of them:
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
No distinction? Or both are saved? I think Paul, in chapters 9-11 shows the distinction between Jew and Gentile. Not that there are two gospels, but that the Jews who had not believed were now behind a veil that blinded them from the truth until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, then the veil will be lifted and the eyes of Israel be opened to see Him -

Faith comes by the word of God - and those who believe it will turn to do it. But then who has the root in themselves to grow in it to the end? That's why we need to be growing - not saying 'I've germinated! I've been born anew!! Now I'm saved no matter what I do or don't do!!!!
Barnsweb

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#19
Apr 19, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
But from other verses we know that mere acknowledgement of sins isn't all a sinner does to obey the gospel.
I still am convinced that John wrote his letter to combat the false teaching of Gnosticism.
If by walking in the light you mean keeping the faith ... I agree. If by walking in the light you mean staying fessed up ... I disagree. Walking in the light is one who keeps the faith, trusting not in good deeds but trusting in Jesus.
I don't think John was giving 1 John 1:9 as s formula to continue walking in the light.
And I'm just as confident that John wrote the letter so we can be instructed in how to made our election sure:-)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#20
Apr 19, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
But from other verses we know that mere acknowledgement of sins isn't all a sinner does to obey the gospel.
I still am convinced that John wrote his letter to combat the false teaching of Gnosticism.
If by walking in the light you mean keeping the faith ... I agree. If by walking in the light you mean staying fessed up ... I disagree. Walking in the light is one who keeps the faith, trusting not in good deeds but trusting in Jesus.
I don't think John was giving 1 John 1:9 as s formula to continue walking in the light.
I agree and by the way the scripture has a lot to say about/against Gnosticism. Why don't you do a new thread exposing the errors of Gnosticism. I am not personally studied up on the subject but it might very well clear up a lot of our issues here because Gnosticism is still alive today. You might start off with a definition of what they believe.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Ver...

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