William

Birmingham, AL

#41 Jun 12, 2013
I think that link is bad, Dave. Google up this and go to the Wiki article:

1953 Iranian coup d'état

Sorry about that.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#42 Jun 12, 2013
The Corporation of the United States of America has been about much evil in stirring up strife around the globe... no mystery there. Trouble is that we're reaping the whirlwind today.
William

Birmingham, AL

#43 Jun 12, 2013
"Trouble is that we're reaping the whirlwind today."

That is exactly right. Both domestic and foreign policy are now subject to the whims of two different ideological mind-sets, and going back and forth between them has created an uneven approach to almost everything of national significance.

But the one unifying factor has been the willingness of the United States to go whole-hog into ill-advised military ventures. Vietnam and the second Iraq war were horrendous foreign policy mistakes. The latter we may never fully recover from. Afghanistan is rounding out the top 3 nicely.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#44 Jun 12, 2013
SO, no one here believes that the Muslims are bent on killing us or that our conflicts with Arab countries concern religion?
William

Columbus, GA

#45 Jun 12, 2013
Muslims, if able, would kill us and take over our lands.

The London incident recently has brought that to the forefront. After hearing the killer of that UK soldier speak about what he did, we again have a clear understanding of how Muslims view westerners.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#46 Jun 12, 2013
Isn't it logical that Arab people would have many other reasons to want to mass murder Americans and Europeans other than to support Islam? Look at their violent existence - should we be surprised that they have violent goals?

I tried to research if the Koran(Quran?) really ordered followers to literally kill non-believers - it was proving to be difficult to get a direct answer. Most ultimately told me to go read the Quran. The Islam.com website was difficult to search because the terminology was unfamiliar - phrases such as "killing infidels" apparently do not directly exist. I gave up quickly, I will have to study the Quran another day.

I did read some comments from sincere Muslims. They say that their religion is being judged by the actions of terrible Muslim examples - that terrorists are not faithful to Islam and that Islam teaches peace and tolerance. It was said that verses from the Quran are taken out of context (like Leviticus) and are given unintended meanings. It was mentioned that suicide bombers do not survive to explain WHY they committed their crime, why do we assume it was to honor Islam?

Are these comments from naive, innocent Muslims who don't know the complete message of Islam, or are Westerners misinterpreting and laying judgement on a gigantic group of people based on the actions of a few people?
Dave P

United States

#47 Jun 12, 2013
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
Isn't it logical that Arab people would have many other reasons to want to mass murder Americans and Europeans other than to support Islam? Look at their violent existence - should we be surprised that they have violent goals?
I tried to research if the Koran(Quran?) really ordered followers to literally kill non-believers - it was proving to be difficult to get a direct answer. Most ultimately told me to go read the Quran. The Islam.com website was difficult to search because the terminology was unfamiliar - phrases such as "killing infidels" apparently do not directly exist. I gave up quickly, I will have to study the Quran another day.
I did read some comments from sincere Muslims. They say that their religion is being judged by the actions of terrible Muslim examples - that terrorists are not faithful to Islam and that Islam teaches peace and tolerance. It was said that verses from the Quran are taken out of context (like Leviticus) and are given unintended meanings. It was mentioned that suicide bombers do not survive to explain WHY they committed their crime, why do we assume it was to honor Islam?
Are these comments from naive, innocent Muslims who don't know the complete message of Islam, or are Westerners misinterpreting and laying judgement on a gigantic group of people based on the actions of a few people?
Do research on "caliphate". See what Muslims desire.
William

Birmingham, AL

#48 Jun 13, 2013
"Are these comments from naive, innocent Muslims who don't know the complete message of Islam, or are Westerners misinterpreting and laying judgment on a gigantic group of people based on the actions of a few people?"

My experience with them has been that they follow, to the letter, what their ordained religious leaders in their mosques tell them to do. They read the Koran based on what their ordained religious leaders in their mosques tell them to read, and how to interpret it (all of which sounds just like another religion I could name).

The Sunni and Shi'ite factions are incredibly distrustful of one another. The Sunni are generally regarded as peaceful and most of the successful business people that are Islam come from this sect. The Shi'ite are militant and tend to be more fundamentalist.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#49 Jun 14, 2013
Ugh! I have avoided doing research about Islamic beliefs. It is the most boring and difficult research any of you have suggested for me so far. I really didn't expect this conversation to take this route.

I trust what you say about Islam - I trust that you believe what you have presented. I guess I don't really care what they believe, since I think that their beliefs are also based on myth. I can't be angry that people would believe what they are taught to believe. I also cannot hold a giant group of people responsible for the actions of a few.

I don't suggest that anyone follow the teachings of Islam, not because they are immoral or intolerant, but because they are not founded on truth. I pursue truth.

I also forgo studying Islam anymore - it is too difficult for me to understand without it being interpreted by people that I do not know can be trusted.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#50 Jun 14, 2013
Don't feel bad-I have no desire to study Islam myself.

Caliphate is simply the idea of creating an Islamic empire. The old Ottoman Empire in Turkey was an example. Many Muslims would like to see the turmoil in the Middle East lead to the establishment of an Islamic Empire-and eventually take over the world.

I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory. Cue the Glenn Beck music!

ASM: I also forgo studying Islam anymore - it is too difficult for me to understand without it being interpreted by people that I do not know can be trusted.

Dave: I don't know how much you can trust anyone on the net, but I can assure you that Barnsweb, Bobby, myself, and others are being as straight and honest as possible with you. We're not trying to proselytize you or get you to join a specific church. I personally just enjoy good conversations and thinking exercises, as well as trying to help others find answers they're looking for.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#51 Jun 15, 2013
I think what this discussion proves is that there is evil/sin in the world and it is not confined to any one people group.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#52 Jun 15, 2013
Yup. Sin is a universal thing for sure. None of us are immune.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#53 Jun 15, 2013
Bobby wrote:
I think what this discussion proves is that there is evil/sin in the world and it is not confined to any one people group.
What do you do when you witness people sinning?
William

Alexander City, AL

#54 Jun 15, 2013
Put 'em back under The Law of Moses!

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#55 Jun 15, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Yup. Sin is a universal thing for sure. None of us are immune.
Untrue! Do you know who is free from sin?(God!) People who have no knowledge of sin.

Some examples:

a fetus

an infant

a person in a coma

a person who does not have the mental ability to understand sin or be in control of his own actions

a person who is born, lives, and dies without ever being exposed to the Bible or its message

a person who is taught not to believe what the Bible says about sinning

a person never allowed to see or discuss the Bible

The ONLY people sinning are those who know about and understand the concept of sin and who make a deliberate choice to disobey.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#56 Jun 15, 2013
William wrote:
Put 'em back under The Law of Moses!
You cannot go around enforcing the rules of your religion on people.

Really, William - what do you do when you see people sinning?

You look away. You shake your head. You walk away. You get far, far away. You give a stern look. You tell them to straighten up and act right. You tell them to get their lives together and go to church. You call the police. You smack them. You cry. You pray.

Which is it?
William

Alexander City, AL

#57 Jun 15, 2013
I take notes and grade 'em. And then I report 'em to my Jesuit Overlords.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#58 Jun 15, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Caliphate is simply the idea of creating an Islamic empire. The old Ottoman Empire in Turkey was an example. Many Muslims would like to see the turmoil in the Middle East lead to the establishment of an Islamic Empire-and eventually take over the world.

I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory. Cue the Glenn Beck music!

I don't know how much you can trust anyone on the net, but I can assure you that Barnsweb, Bobby, myself, and others are being as straight and honest as possible with you. We're not trying to proselytize you or get you to join a specific church. I personally just enjoy good conversations and thinking exercises, as well as trying to help others find answers they're looking for.
I LOVE conspiracy theories! I think they are based on exaggerated facts and leaps of logic but they force you to acknowledge connections that you may not have concluded on your own terms. There's always a chance that it could be true!

Are Muslims trying to take over the World? Is the United States trying to take over the World? Are the Christians going to have to fight the Muslims to see who gets the World?

If I had to make a wager, I'd say the Christians have advantage over the Muslims for reasons OTHER than religion. Westerners have the technology and the skills along with the ability to organize - the Muslims can't get their act together. How can they dream of World Domination when they can't cross their own borders without worry of being murdered? They are their own enemy.

AW - you guys are great! I trust everything any of you have said to me - I trust that you honestly expressed yourself and that you believe the words you speak.

My dis-trust applies to whether your words are fact. Your words are true as you believe truth to be, but is what you believe to be true actually THE truth? Your truth is bias, and that's OK because everyone's truth is bias towards themselves.

This religious conversation has been a great release for me. These ideas are ones I carry around but I rarely share - I apply them, but I don't try to explain them. I'm glad to have met all of you and I'm so happy that I have not yet run you all off.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

#59 Jun 15, 2013
William wrote:
I take notes and grade 'em. And then I report 'em to my Jesuit Overlords.
You're a sin narc?
William

Birmingham, AL

#60 Jun 15, 2013
You're a sin narc?

"The Inquisition ... let's begin!"

"The Inquisition ... look out sin!"

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