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321 - 340 of 424 Comments Last updated May 24, 2013

Since: May 10

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#325
May 7, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
I gots a question. When I read this debate one thing jumps out. The people who against playing music seem to mean that they against it on Sunday service or when the people meet at church. How is it okay at my house to have a few friends over and pick some music to ChristIan songs but it's not okay at the church building. This don't make no sense. If it is sin in one place it will be sin everywhere even in my own house
Not the issue Worship On the Lords day is worship as described in the bible.

Since: May 10

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#326
May 7, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:

JC said I'm using your tactics now. I'm ok with that when it's the truth. To be honest, I feel that the churches of Christ need more sermons on non instrumental music just as much as they do on baptism. It seems and feels like that is all we know.
Now we can start talking Hypocrisy, If JR uses tactics when he claims truth you guys jump up and shout and now its ok to use tactics. Wow.

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#327
May 7, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
So the heart isn't the instrument-but if that argument is right it would be. The heart isn't the instrument, but it is, but it isn't. Basically there's no instrument specified, so no instrument.
What is a Biblical psalm? We have a whole Bible book that tells us what they are. The first century church surely knew about them, especially the Jewish Christians. Some people still today claim that we should ONLY sing psalms from the OT book. Deviate-hell bound. I don't recall the gentleman explaining what the psalms were. Some of those psalms as I recall specifically noted they were to be sung with the playing of instruments involved as well. I notice he didn't go anywhere near that.
Again, common sense question-if someone with no clue of the instrument controversy began reading their Bible, what would they think psalms were when they encountered them in the NT?
Were any psalms sang without the instrument? Ever?

Since: May 10

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#328
May 7, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Dave, the problem the coc and catholic people often have is with separating the two covenants. I do not mean doing away with the old but rather that the old is fulfilled and the new is not governed by law but rather by grace.
If we believe that Paul was telling the truth when he said we are saved by grace through faith, we should learn what that concept actually means. Grace is a form of freedom within certain boundaries.We may have freedom but not when it offends the weaker brother.
That is less of a problem in churches like where I go. Legalism is a problem everywhere, even where I go. It's just that the rules and expectations are different.
None of us have a problem worshiping on Sunday except for maybe barnsweb. Everything depends on culture and denominational affiliation. In the early days missionaries taking the gospel to head hunters in foriegn jungles, focused to much on getting the people to wear clothes. The larger problem was murder and eating human flesh.
Is Grace void of any laws whatsoever? Cant wait for you to get this explained.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#329
May 7, 2013
 
I was just thinking how difficult it was for Paul to explain the freedoms we have in Christ and how easy it was for gentiles to come to Christ and how much harder it was for the Jews. The legal mindset many Jews had was that they were the special people of God, I mean after all God gave to them the law and they worked very hard to keep it-they deserved special treatment. Gentiles were coming to faith in God without having the law and that made the Jews jealous. They felt like they were special and that their works were the thing that made people acceptable before God.

What was missing-the concept of Grace. I believe that Jesus was exhibiting grace with healing people-even sinners-especially sinners. People like lepers who no one wanted to be around, Jesus healed them. How many times do we turn away from people like that?

So we often sit in the lap luxury ignoring other peoples pain. To become more like Jesus we need to develop a heart like Jesus.

Since: May 10

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#330
May 7, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
I was just thinking how difficult it was for Paul to explain the freedoms we have in Christ and how easy it was for gentiles to come to Christ and how much harder it was for the Jews. The legal mindset many Jews had was that they were the special people of God, I mean after all God gave to them the law and they worked very hard to keep it-they deserved special treatment. Gentiles were coming to faith in God without having the law and that made the Jews jealous. They felt like they were special and that their works were the thing that made people acceptable before God.
What was missing-the concept of Grace. I believe that Jesus was exhibiting grace with healing people-even sinners-especially sinners. People like lepers who no one wanted to be around, Jesus healed them. How many times do we turn away from people like that?
So we often sit in the lap luxury ignoring other peoples pain. To become more like Jesus we need to develop a heart like Jesus.
What Laws do we have to follow (ANY) and still fit your definition of Grace. By the way it would be neat for you to post your definition of grace.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#331
May 7, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
What Laws do we have to follow (ANY) and still fit your definition of Grace. By the way it would be neat for you to post your definition of grace.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#332
May 7, 2013
 
Not the issue Worship On the Lords day is worship as described in the bible.

*It is part of the issue. Worship is not confined to the Lord's day only. The actual definition and act of worship is to fall prostrate on one's face. Paul said it was a possibility in 1 Corinthians 14. If its sin in the assembly, its sin everywhere is it not? Or can we separate our secular and spiritual lives?

Now we can start talking Hypocrisy, If JR uses tactics when he claims truth you guys jump up and shout and now its ok to use tactics. Wow.

*Don't get excited. You have your tactics too. We all do. All I said was where is the gospel in a message about instrumental music. I'm not the first or the last to say that.

Were any psalms sang without the instrument? Ever?

*I answered that already. Were any sang with instruments? Ever?

Is Grace void of any laws whatsoever?

*We have the perfect law of liberty, the law of Christ, etc. Here's the novel idea-how do we fulfill that law? "Owe no one anything but to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. All are summed up in this statement-You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law".

*Perhaps its now time for you JC to answer some of the questions we have posted to you. I have asked several, and got questions in return.

Since: May 10

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#333
May 7, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ill post for you the text you alluded to.

That is what Grace of God does. What is the definition you have of grace?

By the way verse one says there are transgressions. Transgressions to what may I ask? What is the response to transgressions?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#334
May 7, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ill post for you the text you alluded to.
That is what Grace of God does. What is the definition you have of grace?
By the way verse one says there are transgressions. Transgressions to what may I ask? What is the response to transgressions?
I understand where you are going with this, you are trying to lure me into a doctrinal trap.

Grace saves-grace loves-grace endures-grace causes us to obey from the heart out of love. Does that help. Your next question will be "how much obedience is necessary"right?

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#335
May 7, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I understand where you are going with this, you are trying to lure me into a doctrinal trap.
Grace saves-grace loves-grace endures-grace causes us to obey from the heart out of love. Does that help. Your next question will be "how much obedience is necessary"right?
STill didnt get a definition from you. I dont deny grace. It is the only thing that allow the sinner to be a child of God. A trap? Im not smart enough to trap a person. Its always a choice a person has. A trap give no choice I believe in choices.

How much obedience? Does your definition of Grace have obedience with it?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#336
May 7, 2013
 
Jc said:By the way verse one says there are transgressions. Transgressions to what may I ask? What is the response to transgressions?

We are all sinners so the response is to come to Jesus with our sin believing he alone has the power to save. We do not clean ourselves up then come to Christ because it is his great love for us that he saves us based on his grace and our faith in him.

"in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus".

What is our response to this? We love him because he first loved us. What does love have to do with it? We seek to serve him and to obey him-not to get saved or stay saved but because we are saved. Our sin nature has been changed-love becomes our motivation.

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#337
May 7, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
Jc said:By the way verse one says there are transgressions. Transgressions to what may I ask? What is the response to transgressions?
We are all sinners so the response is to come to Jesus with our sin believing he alone has the power to save. We do not clean ourselves up then come to Christ because it is his great love for us that he saves us based on his grace and our faith in him.
"in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus".
What is our response to this? We love him because he first loved us. What does love have to do with it? We seek to serve him and to obey him-not to get saved or stay saved but because we are saved. Our sin nature has been changed-love becomes our motivation.
Love it you re-posted My questions but did not answer them. Are you mad because the verse said we have transgressions are because I ask transgressions to what? Paul answered this maybe you should look there.

Then you come off with saying that we should not seek salvation? Wow. What did the first sermon bring a people to ask. WHAT shall we do to be saved? was the question and the answer was what? I challenge you on the statement that you said "we seek to serve him and obey him not to be saved or stay saved" based on the first sermon response. Were they wrong in the question?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#338
May 7, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Love it you re-posted My questions but did not answer them. Are you mad because the verse said we have transgressions are because I ask transgressions to what? Paul answered this maybe you should look there.
Then you come off with saying that we should not seek salvation? Wow. What did the first sermon bring a people to ask. WHAT shall we do to be saved? was the question and the answer was what? I challenge you on the statement that you said "we seek to serve him and obey him not to be saved or stay saved" based on the first sermon response. Were they wrong in the question?
My answer was "we are all sinners/transgressors"

I believe I gave the right answer, it just does not fit your theology. Paul was saying we are saved by grace-simple as that! Of course we have to believe it, or we can try to save ourselves through the works of the law:-) Good luck with that...
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#339
May 7, 2013
 
"Why then should we disregard our own ancient history, but accept the history of those who may or may not be our brethren? Only God knows where those "early church fathers" stand. We do not."

You confuse me with that last sentence. Do you have an ancient history to regard?

Your statements on why the early Church Fathers did not use instruments are right own track. It was not biblical related but related to social norms.

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#340
May 7, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
My answer was "we are all sinners/transgressors"
I believe I gave the right answer, it just does not fit your theology. Paul was saying we are saved by grace-simple as that! Of course we have to believe it, or we can try to save ourselves through the works of the law:-) Good luck with that...
I acknowledge we are all sinners as do you. The verse said that we were transgressors. I was wondering what we were transgressors to? And it seems it is also Paul theology since he wrote it.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#341
May 7, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I acknowledge we are all sinners as do you. The verse said that we were transgressors. I was wondering what we were transgressors to? And it seems it is also Paul theology since he wrote it.
Paul said "I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law".

Later he said "but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death".

My thoughts are that we are all transgressors even if we have never known the law. However when we hear the gospel we are usually told somewhere in that story about the nature of God's wrath which brings death to the disobedient and that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins.

It is my understanding that we must know we are sinners in need of God's grace before the blood can be applied to our sin. That is why I agree that children are safe from the wrath of God. You know, if not for doctrinal disagreements we are not that far apart.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

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#342
May 7, 2013
 

Judged:

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Mike Peterson wrote:
"Why then should we disregard our own ancient history, but accept the history of those who may or may not be our brethren? Only God knows where those "early church fathers" stand. We do not."
You confuse me with that last sentence. Do you have an ancient history to regard?
Your statements on why the early Church Fathers did not use instruments are right own track. It was not biblical related but related to social norms.
Mike, if I recall correctly, I made the statement that the history of Israel, the OT nation, is the history of God's people. Israel's history is the Christians' history. Anyone who is a child of God finds their historical roots in the Old Testament.

That second statement is why I included it. The coc teaches that scripture prohibits musical instruments or God would have mentioned it. The early church fathers had different ideas as you mention. Modern day reasons don't match up with early church history reasons.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#343
May 8, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Mike, if I recall correctly, I made the statement that the history of Israel, the OT nation, is the history of God's people. Israel's history is the Christians' history. Anyone who is a child of God finds their historical roots in the Old Testament.
That second statement is why I included it. The coc teaches that scripture prohibits musical instruments or God would have mentioned it. The early church fathers had different ideas as you mention. Modern day reasons don't match up with early church history reasons.
I must be a little dense on what you are saying.

The OT Jews used musical instruments in their worship.

The Early Christian Church Fathers was against instruments some think originally to put a separation to Jewish worship and then because of social norms.

Organ music eventually began when that music was began to be used in Operas and the other acceptable performing arts.

Other instruments were then added.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#344
May 8, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I must be a little dense on what you are saying.
The OT Jews used musical instruments in their worship.
The Early Christian Church Fathers was against instruments some think originally to put a separation to Jewish worship and then because of social norms.
Organ music eventually began when that music was began to be used in Operas and the other acceptable performing arts.
Other instruments were then added.
I went to a catholic church once and they used instruments.

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