New Guy's instrumental debate- psalms

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Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#305
Apr 24, 2013
 

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Johnny wrote:
have you boys ever ask a orthodox Jew why they dont use instruments. The reason orthodox Jews give for not using the instrument is
Psalm 137:1-3 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars
we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said,“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
ok boys look close at what that says.“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” Did any of you catch that.
sing means to put away your harps and your instruments. Ask any orthodox Jew today and that verse they will tell you Psalm 137:1-3 makes clear that
musical instruments are separate thing from singing and then apply that to Pauls words. This isn’t rocket science if you
just open your eyes and hears
"thou shalt not use instruments in worship". 1st Johnny 3:2
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#306
Apr 24, 2013
 

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Johnny wrote:
have you boys ever ask a orthodox Jew why they dont use instruments. The reason orthodox Jews give for not using the instrument is
Psalm 137:1-3 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars
we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said,“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
ok boys look close at what that says.“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” Did any of you catch that.
sing means to put away your harps and your instruments. Ask any orthodox Jew today and that verse they will tell you Psalm 137:1-3 makes clear that
musical instruments are separate thing from singing and then apply that to Pauls words. This isn’t rocket science if you
just open your eyes and hears
Because you go by 'Johnny' as an adult, you must see yourself in some child-like state, but none of the rest of us are 'boys'. I've actually talked to Jews about instrumental music, and some don't use it in Synagoge, but some do - in fact, many do - especially the Messianic Synagoges (Christian Jews).

Besides, practice without direction from God is just one interpretation or idea over another. The matter of faith fact is that God said use of instruments is acceptable, and in fact said 'whatsoever hath breath'(or is capable of praise worthy sounds) can be used to praise Him! Instruments, by the direct word of God - which is everlastingly true - is acceptable. And since God says it is acceptable, you who presume to bind things upon men that God has not bound will be found to actually be liars on the Day of the LORD.

There's still time to repent and reconcile with your brothers in Chirst...if you are capable to repent to believe God is true. In fact is wouldn't infringe on your liberty in Christ to still sing A-Cappella - just say you prefer to, but don't judge against those who do use instruments.

You might even consider debating truth instead of man made ideas?
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#307
Apr 25, 2013
 

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Johnny wrote:
have you boys ever ask a orthodox Jew why they dont use instruments. The reason orthodox Jews give for not using the instrument is
Psalm 137:1-3 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars
we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said,“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
ok boys look close at what that says.“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” Did any of you catch that.
sing means to put away your harps and your instruments. Ask any orthodox Jew today and that verse they will tell you Psalm 137:1-3 makes clear that
musical instruments are separate thing from singing and then apply that to Pauls words. This isn’t rocket science if you
just open your eyes and hears
Does anyone ever look at what they read or write? What is this psalm about? The Babylonian captivity. The Jews hung there harps because they were being mocked by their captors. "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" How about reading verses 4-6?

How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

Looks like the psalmist puts all the factors together. And chiefly, don't ignore the context!

Since: Jul 11

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#308
May 1, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
THE ISSUE OF "WORSHIP"
The churches of Christ teach that there are five specific acts of worship that are to be done on Sundays inside the local assembly. These acts of worship are prayer, preaching, giving, taking the Lords Supper, and vocal singing only. The only time God is worshipped is during the "worship service" within the assembly on Sunday. Doing anything different, or changing this in any way, results in error and sin. The question-is this view correct?
What is worship? According to our Bibles and different concordances and dictionaries, worship has several ideas behind it. There are several different Greek and Hebrew words translated as worship, and add shades of meaning. One idea in both testaments is to prostrate oneself, to bow, crouch or stoop, to fall on ones face. We see many examples of this in scripture:
*Abraham fell down when the 3 men visited him, to tell of his coming son and to warn him about Sodom and Gomorrah.
*Moses fell on his face and worshipped God on Sinai.
*Joshua fell on his face when the captain of the Lords host approached him. He was told to remove his shoe for he stood on holy ground.
*Job fell and worshipped God after his troubles.
*Look at Jesus. He was worshipped in this same manner by the wise men, a leper, Jairus, His disciples on the sea, a syrophoenecian woman, women at His tomb, disciples at the resurrection.
*Cornelius fell at Peters feet and worshipped him.
*Many examples in Revelation.
Question-if falling on ones face and prostrating ones self is worship, why is this not a religious practice today? Is it not authorized? If one fell on his face during a church of Christ "worship service", would an elder pick him up and correct his strange fire, since this is not one of the five acts of worship?
*What did Paul say was possible in 1 Corinthians 14:25?
Other ideas behind worship are to pay homage to God, revere and adore, glorify, praise, show dignity and honor, pious, wait upon, and also the idea of service, working, and being a slave can be included in the worship of God.
*One cannot help but notice that nowhere in our New Testaments are any specific acts of worship named as such. Nowhere does the term worship hour or corporate worship occur. These truly are "the language of Ashdod". Nowhere are we told what is to take place during a "worship service". In fact, in Bond's dictionary we read this note on worship:
"The worship of God is NOWHERE defined in scripture. A consideration of the above verbs shows that
it is not confined to praise; broadly it may be regarded as the direct acknowledgment of God, of His nature, attributes, ways or claims, whether by the outgoing of the heart in praise and thanksgiving or by deed done in such acknowledgment".
I believe this to be correct. If God has not strickly defined what is and is not worship, what authority do we have? God has not called preaching, praying, giving, communion, or singing vocally worship, nor has He restricted worship to these things, nor has He confined them to a specific time and place where they must be performed.
John 4 is a great passage of scripture. This is not time for full exegesis, but a dispute occurs between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. It is over where is the correct place to worship. We are very quick in the churches of Christ to quote verse 24-in spirit and truth. Amen! But do we forget about 21-that neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will anyone specifically worship the Father.
*There is no longer a central official "worship station". We do not have to check into the official coc congregation to do the specific acts of worship, because they are not limited in time nor location. As a spiritual priesthood we can all worship God wherever we are and whenever we desire. How?
Mark, here is one of many comments that address your points. In fact, this entire thread addresses your points.

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#309
May 6, 2013
 

Since: May 10

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#310
May 6, 2013
 
The Youtube preacher addresses some of NG questions and claims about singing. Found it interesting.

Since: Jul 11

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#311
May 6, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
The Youtube preacher addresses some of NG questions and claims about singing. Found it interesting.
Will a Christian go to hell for playing music with Godly lyrics? How does playing and instrument transgress the law of God?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#312
May 6, 2013
 
Psalmois means to pluck the strings; Type of song, not in reference to manner of playing the song. Said the instrument has to be specified in the text. Forget the fact of what psalms actually were. Tap-dancing all around that one. He started stammering quite a bit here. Also forget that several of the "psalms" did specify using instruments. Never defined what the psalms actually were-seems typical.

Goes into women not leading the singing, teaching, praying, etc. No choirs, absolutely not, nor solo performances.

He says that it has to be from the heart, then turns around and says the heart is the instrument-two different arguments.

Motivation issue-he got that one right. Is he judging the heart and motivation and intentions of those who do use instruments because of his beliefs? None of us are prophets.

*Is this really what some people spend their precious time on the Lords' Day preaching? Where's the gospel?

5 minute sermons, rest a concert?

Also sticks with the idea that Ephesians and Colossians is about "worship services".

Nothing new here, same arguments.

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#313
May 6, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Psalmois means to pluck the strings; Type of song, not in reference to manner of playing the song. Said the instrument has to be specified in the text. Forget the fact of what psalms actually were. Tap-dancing all around that one. He started stammering quite a bit here. Also forget that several of the "psalms" did specify using instruments. Never defined what the psalms actually were-seems typical.
Goes into women not leading the singing, teaching, praying, etc. No choirs, absolutely not, nor solo performances.
He says that it has to be from the heart, then turns around and says the heart is the instrument-two different arguments.
Motivation issue-he got that one right. Is he judging the heart and motivation and intentions of those who do use instruments because of his beliefs? None of us are prophets.
*Is this really what some people spend their precious time on the Lords' Day preaching? Where's the gospel?
5 minute sermons, rest a concert?
Also sticks with the idea that Ephesians and Colossians is about "worship services".
Nothing new here, same arguments.
Was he accurate about to "one another"?

Was he wrong when he said that Scholars claimed the instrument would have been listed if that was meant?

Were psalms ever song without the instrument? How often? How do you know?

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#314
May 6, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
Psalmois means to pluck the strings; Type of song, not in reference to manner of playing the song. Said the instrument has to be specified in the text. Forget the fact of what psalms actually were. Tap-dancing all around that one. He started stammering quite a bit here. Also forget that several of the "psalms" did specify using instruments. Never defined what the psalms actually were-seems typical.
Goes into women not leading the singing, teaching, praying, etc. No choirs, absolutely not, nor solo performances.
He says that it has to be from the heart, then turns around and says the heart is the instrument-two different arguments.
Motivation issue-he got that one right. Is he judging the heart and motivation and intentions of those who do use instruments because of his beliefs? None of us are prophets.
*Is this really what some people spend their precious time on the Lords' Day preaching? Where's the gospel?
5 minute sermons, rest a concert?
Also sticks with the idea that Ephesians and Colossians is about "worship services".
Nothing new here, same arguments.
I went back he did not argue from the heart being the instrument actually claimed other wise yet he said if that were accurate, which it is not the Heart would be the instrument for that argument.

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#315
May 6, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:

*Is this really what some people spend their precious time on the Lords' Day preaching? Where's the gospel?

Nothing new here, same arguments.
Found your comment interesting and a tactic of Bobbys.

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#316
May 6, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:

Nothing new here, same arguments.
What wrong with same old arguments?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#317
May 6, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Found your comment interesting and a tactic of Bobbys.
Perhaps its the truth. Where was the gospel in that? Maybe we spend entirely too much time on trivial matters and not enough telling people what they truly need to hear.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#318
May 6, 2013
 
Keep posting your arguments. Out of time here, work calls. Answer all later.
mopman

United States

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#319
May 6, 2013
 
I gots a question. When I read this debate one thing jumps out. The people who against playing music seem to mean that they against it on Sunday service or when the people meet at church. How is it okay at my house to have a few friends over and pick some music to ChristIan songs but it's not okay at the church building. This don't make no sense. If it is sin in one place it will be sin everywhere even in my own house
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#320
May 6, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
I gots a question. When I read this debate one thing jumps out. The people who against playing music seem to mean that they against it on Sunday service or when the people meet at church. How is it okay at my house to have a few friends over and pick some music to ChristIan songs but it's not okay at the church building. This don't make no sense. If it is sin in one place it will be sin everywhere even in my own house
Great point! It is all about the idea of correct worship. As long as a cocer is not using it for "church" worship it would be ok. I believe our lives should be a form of worship and not just while we are in a church building. I can remember that when my kids brought their school band instruments in the building they were told that is sinful-well, not in those very words.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#321
May 6, 2013
 
For mopman-most seem to think that its only worship on Sundays in the temple, er I mean the church building. That's another reason that some try to say that Ephesians and Colossians is speaking of the assembled church, and not everyday life for the Christian-then it can be ok when you're not worshipping God, but not at "church".

For Bobby-agree 1000%. Our lives should be a picture of worship to God. I do believe the Lords' Supper should be limited to Sunday only, but those other "acts of worship"-they aren't limited to the church building on Sunday. I can preach a sermon anywhere and anytime I desire almost. I don't need to wait for Sunday or make it to the temple to do that. I don't have to wait for Sunday to praise Him, or to give offerings financial or spiritual.

JC said I'm using your tactics now. I'm ok with that when it's the truth. To be honest, I feel that the churches of Christ need more sermons on non instrumental music just as much as they do on baptism. It seems and feels like that is all we know.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#322
May 6, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I went back he did not argue from the heart being the instrument actually claimed other wise yet he said if that were accurate, which it is not the Heart would be the instrument for that argument.
So the heart isn't the instrument-but if that argument is right it would be. The heart isn't the instrument, but it is, but it isn't. Basically there's no instrument specified, so no instrument.

What is a Biblical psalm? We have a whole Bible book that tells us what they are. The first century church surely knew about them, especially the Jewish Christians. Some people still today claim that we should ONLY sing psalms from the OT book. Deviate-hell bound. I don't recall the gentleman explaining what the psalms were. Some of those psalms as I recall specifically noted they were to be sung with the playing of instruments involved as well. I notice he didn't go anywhere near that.

Again, common sense question-if someone with no clue of the instrument controversy began reading their Bible, what would they think psalms were when they encountered them in the NT?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#323
May 6, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Was he accurate about to "one another"?
Was he wrong when he said that Scholars claimed the instrument would have been listed if that was meant?
Were psalms ever song without the instrument? How often? How do you know?
Yes they were singing and teaching one another. Here's the thing-the early church was together more than us. They were together daily, they went from house to house. They were singing and teaching one another-but that does not mean this was addressed primarily to the assembly.

Many of the OT psalms were addressed to the chief musician, and in some the specific instrument was mentioned, others it was not. Are "scholars" ever wrong? Do scholars, or us for that matter, know whether or not the Spirit felt the need to specify an instrument?

Were psalms sung with or without the instrument? Both. How often? I don't know, neither does anyone else. We aren't 2000 years old or older. The Bible tells us that both were acceptable. Let me guess-you are thinking of history, historians? Go ahead and use them-just don't tell Mike the Catholic that his history is wrong when you use his sources to justify your position on instrumental music.

Mike, I mean no disrespect to you-just can't remember your last name at the moment, why I'm calling you Mike the Catholic.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#324
May 7, 2013
 
Dave, the problem the coc and catholic people often have is with separating the two covenants. I do not mean doing away with the old but rather that the old is fulfilled and the new is not governed by law but rather by grace.

If we believe that Paul was telling the truth when he said we are saved by grace through faith, we should learn what that concept actually means. Grace is a form of freedom within certain boundaries.We may have freedom but not when it offends the weaker brother.

That is less of a problem in churches like where I go. Legalism is a problem everywhere, even where I go. It's just that the rules and expectations are different.

None of us have a problem worshiping on Sunday except for maybe barnsweb. Everything depends on culture and denominational affiliation. In the early days missionaries taking the gospel to head hunters in foriegn jungles, focused to much on getting the people to wear clothes. The larger problem was murder and eating human flesh.

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