New Guy's instrumental debate- psalms
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#285 Apr 9, 2013
Dave P wrote:
That's where I am going mopman. Some of the conservative coc apparently have trouble deciphering when the assembly is being talked about, and when everyday Christian life is the subject. Many are sure Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 are speaking of the "worship service", yet our everyday walk is in view. The la vista website claims that 1 Timothy and the first part of 1 Corinthians 14 are everyday living, when the assembly is in view. Selective belief.
Mopman, barnsweb is a former/raised and family preaches in the coc, with a strong leaning toward messianic Jews and upholding the Sabbath. If I remember right his wife is Mormon, so he has a wide range of backgrounds-but is a stickler for what Jesus said. I disagree with him on some things, as I am sure he does with me. But he is a very wise and knowledgeable person, and I have learned a lot from hearing his viewpoints. If nothing else he makes you think-and that's exercise we all need
Thanks for the complent, and it isn't from rehersal of sermons or books that I've come to the viewpoints held. My 'deeper' study was a result of my LDS wife. I had a brain injury that required learning how to re-learn most everything, and to actually go back through things to KNOW what the truth is. Hundreds of charges were made agianst the LDS, which I believed, and upon re examination of facts, realizing what Y'shua taught by careful noting what He did teach, that I realized the primary focus was on being hearers and doers of the words He gave from the Father. That's what He'd done to show His love for the Father, and that's what He calls us to do if we love Him.

We only have the gospels, a light smattering between the gospels and Revelation, and then some powerful words He gave in Revelation. The primary difference between LDS and other Churches has to do with who they hear and obey. But then that is also the difference between most CoC and Denominations and Orthodox Churches - it wasn't until the pathway was realized and noted and believed that I came upon the AENT and the Netzarim beliefs - which almost totally agree with mine, and it was a nameless 'friend' at an apologetics site that pointed me their way, as the Scriptures they highlight in their faith are nearly identical. I'll focus on what He said was needed and foundational truths, rather than attempt to stretch John 3:16 entirely too far.

In the Book of Mormon Jesus tells the peoples in the Americas to hear what the Apostles would teach them or command them to do. What He preached to them wasn't even half the sermon on the mount. In the Scripture we have (*which they also have and say they believe), He said He gave them all the Father had given Him, that they received it, and that they were to teach others what He had first taught and commanded them to believe and do. Of special note is what He taught about Torah, and that we are not to think even one word of it would pass as long as heaven and earth exists. Yet the majority of Western Christians leap over the sermon on the mount to sit at the feat of Paul to ignore the very things Y'shua said are necessary!!!!!

I'll try to give an example for a point about it.

A man commits a greavious crime. The judicial system puts a penalty of price that he cannot pay. The Friend comes and pays the bill due. OK. The man is out of jail, basically 'free' of the penalty, but not reckoned worthy to vote or own a gun, as he's a convicted fellon. Yet there is a way to prove himself to the court that he is reformed and now worthy of full rights restoration- and upon his reform, in deed, his rights are completely restored by the court.

The deeds he had do showed his worthiness - personal worthiness - to the full restoration and 'newness' to be just as if he'd never been convicted. Jesus can forgive sin, and does according to His word, but we must be sanctified by being hearers and doers of His word, to attain to the fulness of what He came to give us.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#286 Apr 9, 2013
I was just thinking about a scenario where all of us were together in a muslim prison awaiting our fate. I doubt that we would be having any of these discussions. We might have a judas among us that we worried about but I doubt that our theology would matter much because our captors would see all of us as christians because we claim the name of Jesus.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#287 Apr 9, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for the complent, and it isn't from rehersal of sermons or books that I've come to the viewpoints held. My 'deeper' study was a result of my LDS wife. I had a brain injury that required learning how to re-learn most everything, and to actually go back through things to KNOW what the truth is. Hundreds of charges were made agianst the LDS, which I believed, and upon re examination of facts, realizing what Y'shua taught by careful noting what He did teach, that I realized the primary focus was on being hearers and doers of the words He gave from the Father. That's what He'd done to show His love for the Father, and that's what He calls us to do if we love Him.
We only have the gospels, a light smattering between the gospels and Revelation, and then some powerful words He gave in Revelation. The primary difference between LDS and other Churches has to do with who they hear and obey. But then that is also the difference between most CoC and Denominations and Orthodox Churches - it wasn't until the pathway was realized and noted and believed that I came upon the AENT and the Netzarim beliefs - which almost totally agree with mine, and it was a nameless 'friend' at an apologetics site that pointed me their way, as the Scriptures they highlight in their faith are nearly identical. I'll focus on what He said was needed and foundational truths, rather than attempt to stretch John 3:16 entirely too far.
In the Book of Mormon Jesus tells the peoples in the Americas to hear what the Apostles would teach them or command them to do. What He preached to them wasn't even half the sermon on the mount. In the Scripture we have (*which they also have and say they believe), He said He gave them all the Father had given Him, that they received it, and that they were to teach others what He had first taught and commanded them to believe and do. Of special note is what He taught about Torah, and that we are not to think even one word of it would pass as long as heaven and earth exists. Yet the majority of Western Christians leap over the sermon on the mount to sit at the feat of Paul to ignore the very things Y'shua said are necessary!!!!!
I'll try to give an example for a point about it.
A man commits a greavious crime. The judicial system puts a penalty of price that he cannot pay. The Friend comes and pays the bill due. OK. The man is out of jail, basically 'free' of the penalty, but not reckoned worthy to vote or own a gun, as he's a convicted fellon. Yet there is a way to prove himself to the court that he is reformed and now worthy of full rights restoration- and upon his reform, in deed, his rights are completely restored by the court.
The deeds he had do showed his worthiness - personal worthiness - to the full restoration and 'newness' to be just as if he'd never been convicted. Jesus can forgive sin, and does according to His word, but we must be sanctified by being hearers and doers of His word, to attain to the fulness of what He came to give us.
I enjoy reading your comments, too. The Book of Mormon is a bit too much for me though. Are you a believer in the Book of Mormon? You believe it to be inspired?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#288 Apr 9, 2013
Bobby wrote:
I was just thinking about a scenario where all of us were together in a muslim prison awaiting our fate. I doubt that we would be having any of these discussions. We might have a judas among us that we worried about but I doubt that our theology would matter much because our captors would see all of us as christians because we claim the name of Jesus.
Have you seen the new book out that questions if Muhammed ever existed?:-) I just had to get it and read it:-) Got it from WMD.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#289 Apr 9, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I enjoy reading your comments, too. The Book of Mormon is a bit too much for me though. Are you a believer in the Book of Mormon? You believe it to be inspired?
I'm a believer that it was first written by Solomon Spalding, later revised by Sidney Rigdon after he stole the manuscript from the printer that Spalding to the book to, and then 'revealed' by the American Muhammud Joseph Smith Jr, and foisted on the world as a new 'golden bible' saying Jesus Christ came to the Americas to save the lost tribes of Isreal;-)

The only truth in it is where some of Isaiah is quoted.

Mormons, as with most other 'Christians', are afraid to investigate the truth and consider what they were taught may not be the truth.

Who has believed the report of the Son, the Testimony of Jesus Christ?

Can't say as I recall Y'shua ever having taught on instrumental or non-instrumental music:-)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#290 Apr 9, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>

Who has believed the report of the Son, the Testimony of Jesus Christ?
Can't say as I recall Y'shua ever having taught on instrumental or non-instrumental music:-)
This is about your last statement in the above post. If Christ taught on everything there was no need for the Holy Spirit to be sent to the Apostles, there was no need for the Apostles to write anything of instruction, and there would be no need for us to have anything except the red words. Do you believe all commands of the Apostles are binding?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#291 Apr 9, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm a believer that it was first written by Solomon Spalding, later revised by Sidney Rigdon after he stole the manuscript from the printer that Spalding to the book to, and then 'revealed' by the American Muhammud Joseph Smith Jr, and foisted on the world as a new 'golden bible' saying Jesus Christ came to the Americas to save the lost tribes of Isreal;-)
The only truth in it is where some of Isaiah is quoted.
Mormons, as with most other 'Christians', are afraid to investigate the truth and consider what they were taught may not be the truth.
Who has believed the report of the Son, the Testimony of Jesus Christ?
Can't say as I recall Y'shua ever having taught on instrumental or non-instrumental music:-)
Interesting, I just got an update from our ministry team in Utah, so they were on my mind when I read your message. Would you say that Mormons are Christians? If they are it certainly cannot be because of the book of Mormon. I think if there are any mormons who are christians it will not be because of their doctrine/book of mormon but in spite of it.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#292 Apr 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
This is about your last statement in the above post. If Christ taught on everything there was no need for the Holy Spirit to be sent to the Apostles, there was no need for the Apostles to write anything of instruction, and there would be no need for us to have anything except the red words. Do you believe all commands of the Apostles are binding?
What did Jesus say? He said the Holy Spirit would enable them to recall all He had taught them, and some additional things they were not able to receive at that time.

Paul was not in that group of the original disciples to have heard Him to be enabled by the Spirit to recall those things.

I am bound to Christ, not Paul, and as Paul and I are fellow laborers, yoked to Christ, in those things we agree. If Paul taught things that are not in accord with abiding in the word of Christ - in those things I cannot be yoked to Paul.

All the other apostles agree with Jesus, so there isn't any question about what they taught. If you can find where I may be wrong on that - do show me where I missed the point!

Those who take Paul over Jesus also leave out immersion - that's but one indicator. Whatever Jesus taught should be taken as one word - the whole of what He taught - not pitting one thing against another - such as 'it is finished' to say we have no need to abide in His word or be disciples or be immersed or keep His commandments or believe His promises or precepts. It's an all or nothing issue - Acts 3:22,23. And if that is the case - where does any commandment of Paul fit into the picture that Jesus taught?

Can you tell me that? Where does a commandment of Paul fit into the picture, except is the same commandment Jesus gave?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#293 Apr 9, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting, I just got an update from our ministry team in Utah, so they were on my mind when I read your message. Would you say that Mormons are Christians? If they are it certainly cannot be because of the book of Mormon. I think if there are any mormons who are christians it will not be because of their doctrine/book of mormon but in spite of it.
That's the sixty-million dollar question they should consider between themselves and God. Do they believe Jesus? Do they keep His commandments given in the Holy Bible? They say they do, but in my review of the issue, they leave most all of it aside and then follow men, pretending to themselves and testifying to themselves that they do. But the truth is easily known by careful review of His teachings VS the BOM/D&C/POGP.

I have a book and CD from the author of 'Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon'. The book is about 400 pages, but the CD contains all the research material gathered over more than a decade that proves the BOM is a hoax and who really wrote it. Very few of the original CDs survive, and it blows Fawn Brodie's book completely out of the water.

Do they love Jesus? Yes. Do they believe immersion for forgiveness of sin and then receiving the Holy Spirit to live by the Spirit and that keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ are necessary? Yes, in principle.
mopman

United States

#294 Apr 9, 2013
To barns man. Are you saying Paul wasn't an apostle? Is Luke? Is the acts of the apostles God given as a true book we now have called Acts? If so you have to count Luke as a false apostle to. Luke recorded the acts of the apostles. He wrote of Pauls conversation and Pauls orders by Jesus.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#295 Apr 9, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
This is about your last statement in the above post. If Christ taught on everything there was no need for the Holy Spirit to be sent to the Apostles, there was no need for the Apostles to write anything of instruction, and there would be no need for us to have anything except the red words. Do you believe all commands of the Apostles are binding?
I agree with you on this. I don’t see how we can throw out Paul and other wittings or count them “uninspired.” I do understand Barnswebs points and have pondered over the same issues myself. However, if I take that position I am left with a Bible I cannot trust. If I can discount Paul’s Apostleship then what we have is a Bible not worthy of two cents. Once we start tossing out Books, Chapters, Verses, we are saying God couldn’t even give us His written Word to help guide us to all truth.
Dave P

Clarkesville, GA

#296 Apr 9, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
This was one of the first things I noticed when I began blogging with church of Christ people- some applied Eph. to everyday life- least they were consistent. I look forward to reading your post that relates to this.
I will add: I not completely convinced regarding “Sunday” being BINDING with certain practices. Perhaps, in a future thread, it might serve us well to discuss BINDING EXAMPLES.
I said I would stop on here but it’s a bit addictive, especially when the material is food for thought.
Glad you're still here Randy. I may have to slow down a bit just due to overtime at work. But I am also thinking about doing more online stuff too-its a good way to get ideas out in the public. Maybe we shall talk about binding examples.

As far as Sunday goes, I do believe Sunday is the Lords Day, that Christians should assemble together, and that the Lords Supper should be the focus of that time. Sunday is not the "be all-end all" of our experience though. And Sunday is definitely not the only day we worship God.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#297 Apr 9, 2013
You should seriously consider a Blog. They are FREE @ WordPress. You already have threads here that you could transfer to a Blog- the ones about music, etc. Most church of Christ Blogs are on the progressive side or ultra-conservative side so it would definitely be good to have someone blogging from another perspective.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#298 Apr 9, 2013
mopman wrote:
To barns man. Are you saying Paul wasn't an apostle? Is Luke? Is the acts of the apostles God given as a true book we now have called Acts? If so you have to count Luke as a false apostle to. Luke recorded the acts of the apostles. He wrote of Pauls conversation and Pauls orders by Jesus.
Suspend all assumptions you have. Read what Luke said. He made no claim to be an apostle. Only Paul and Luke say Paul is an Apostle. Peter, Matthew, John, or any others, did they say Paul was an Apostle? No. Only Paul, and he speaks quite highly of himself in that regard - over and over and over. Look at the real Apostles. Did they ever carry on so about convincing anyone of their possition as His Apostles? No.

Luke wrote so people would have record of what they were being instructed in - the gospel as preached by the Messiah.

Matthew and John wrote as direct and original disciples who knew what Jesus taught - not by 'revelation' no one else heard, but as eyewitnesses to His word and work and prophecy fulfilled.

So the question needs to be to put first those that He said to hear - just as He said near the end of John.

Matthew and Luke are very similar, but are different. Which account are we going to hear in every detail? Both equally? Or should we put more 'trust' in what Matthew wrote because of what Jesus said to them in John?

I'm a big proponent of 'the sum of Thy word is truth.' I consider them all, but focus on the originals words as the primary truth that if any disagree, that we need to hear what they said.

We need to be those workmen who need not be ashamed because we carefully divided the word of truth - not just accept something because Alexander Campbell said so or gave a compelling argument for. We need to spend our time 'at the feet' of our Master. If He were alive today, would we seek Him - to hear Him speak; or would we rather follow after someone who never heard Him, but preached a message he claimed to be of a revelation God gave to Him? Who would you take the time to follow?

Most follow the one they like what is said, rather than the one that says it like it is.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#299 Apr 9, 2013
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#300 Apr 9, 2013
For your musical enjoyment, a friend playing 'Christ the Lord is Risen Today' on an antique Dominion organ he just restored.



Somehow I just don't see what the instrumental issue is. Attending my dads congregation and trying to sing with joy to the Lord would have been much easier to do if they did have such an organ to assist the congregation in singing.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#301 Apr 10, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with you on this. I don’t see how we can throw out Paul and other wittings or count them “uninspired.” I do understand Barnswebs points and have pondered over the same issues myself. However, if I take that position I am left with a Bible I cannot trust. If I can discount Paul’s Apostleship then what we have is a Bible not worthy of two cents. Once we start tossing out Books, Chapters, Verses, we are saying God couldn’t even give us His written Word to help guide us to all truth.
I don't 'throw out' what Paul or Luke wrote. How many times do I quote Acts, and not only quote, put place high significance on the explicit content - the very words spoken. The Acts 3:22,23 passage is easy enough to check - just look up what Moses said in the passage credited to him that Peter spoke of. Or the Acts 2 passages that relate to the very promise of God to all generations to come. Indeed, it would be a very dangerous and careless matter to toss any of the books or authors we have in the whole of our Scriptures, and many a faithful man has died to preserve them for us to this day. Please don't come away with the idea that I think or promote denial of the truth - and the truth will withstand investigation or criticism.

If you've read Seiss or Kennedy on the Zodiac as prophecy of the Christ, you'll also note that it was perverted by some into stories of paganism and lore. The minor perversions didn't obscure the ability to regain the 'lost' knowledge of their true meanings in Christ Jesus, the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.' And man surely didn't come up with the Zodiac on his own, and it had to be prophecy directly from God to show His plan to all nations - that His word, power, grace and majesty are shown to the entire world - every night - to those discerning to 'read' it.

That the Zodiac was perverted to say things that just aren't so is just an indicator that man has and can pervert what God has said and declared - but with some work and care and devotion to the task, truth can be restored and trusted. But when something doesn't fit - and is actually quite contrary to the message given by God earlier, or as given by the one we deem and believe to be the very Son of God or the Eternal Father - we need to get to work and not forget to pray about it either.

The penalty for sin - the 'price deficient'- was paid on the cross. The Torah, the instructions in righteousness at its most basic level - is everlasting: it is the word of God, and His Son, the WORD made flesh, also said every letter is everlasting - He said as long as heaven and earth exist - knowing it would still exist after His rising from the dead....
Johnny

Axton, VA

#302 Apr 24, 2013
have you boys ever ask a orthodox Jew why they dont use instruments. The reason orthodox Jews give for not using the instrument is

Psalm 137:1-3 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars
we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said,“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

ok boys look close at what that says.“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” Did any of you catch that.
sing means to put away your harps and your instruments. Ask any orthodox Jew today and that verse they will tell you Psalm 137:1-3 makes clear that
musical instruments are separate thing from singing and then apply that to Pauls words. This isn’t rocket science if you
just open your eyes and hears
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

#303 Apr 24, 2013
Johnny wrote:
have you boys ever ask a orthodox Jew why they dont use instruments. The reason orthodox Jews give for not using the instrument is
Psalm 137:1-3 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars
we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said,“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
ok boys look close at what that says.“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” Did any of you catch that.
sing means to put away your harps and your instruments. Ask any orthodox Jew today and that verse they will tell you Psalm 137:1-3 makes clear that
musical instruments are separate thing from singing and then apply that to Pauls words. This isn’t rocket science if you
just open your eyes and hears
The reason orthodox Jews, second century historians, and whoever else you mention that possibly didn't use instruments have entirely different reasons than you, the coc, primitive baptists and some presbyterians do. Several differing reasons, none of them scriptural. See you still hang your hat on the word singing. Maybe one of these days you'll find out what it was they were supposed to sing and how that affects the discussion. Perhaps you'll figure out that there's no "worship service" in view in either Ephesians or Colossians. Maybe you'll figure out you are lifting up your own "traditions of men" and nullifying the commands of God by doing so. I pray you do.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#304 Apr 24, 2013
Johnny wrote:
have you boys ever ask a orthodox Jew why they dont use instruments. The reason orthodox Jews give for not using the instrument is
Psalm 137:1-3 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars
we hung our harps, for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said,“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
ok boys look close at what that says.“Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” Did any of you catch that.
sing means to put away your harps and your instruments. Ask any orthodox Jew today and that verse they will tell you Psalm 137:1-3 makes clear that
musical instruments are separate thing from singing and then apply that to Pauls words. This isn’t rocket science if you
just open your eyes and hears
Interesting thanks

By the way do you preach on the OT ever, there are some who claim the coc does not preach out of OT except to support MDR issues. I claim that as a false statement, and then your name and Heaths was brought up as ones who do not preach out of the OT. Please enlighten those on here.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Bassett Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
dr.joel smithers (Sep '16) Sep 7 Lurliec 5
Speak Out Bassett Virginia !!!! (Jul '15) Apr '17 Bill 6
My girl (Jan '17) Apr '17 Bill 3
Terry or Susan Walker (Nov '10) May '15 vatechalltheway 16
Lee Gilley shooting.... (Jan '15) Jan '15 Penultimate 2
News Charges advance (Aug '10) Jan '15 miss cleveland 3
News Beware of online romance lies (Sep '10) Dec '14 ss4twentynine 2

Bassett Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

Bassett Mortgages