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41 - 51 of 51 Comments Last updated May 13, 2013
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Since: Jul 11

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#41
May 9, 2013
 
This idea that, if God helps me do something, then, if I fail, it is His fault, is very poorly reasoned--regardless of the kind of help talked about. For example, the Bible helps me avoid sin (Ps 119:11). Following Hatcher's reasoning, if I still sin, I can blame the Bible at judgment. The brethren help me to be faithful (Heb 10:24). According to Hatcher's thinking, if I become unfaithful, I can blame the brethren at judgment. Just because a brotherhood editor hurls an accusation does not mean it was fit to print.

Hatcher criticizes the concept that God could give wisdom to a saint directly in answer to prayer. But, he can produce neither passage nor ontological principle which disproves the concept. No one is saying that is the only way God grants wisdom. But, in light of NT teaching, it certainly seems within the range of divine option. Read again James 1:5 and Ephesians 3:20.

And, Hatcher pokes fun at Mac Deaver for maintaining spiritual fellowship with those who are weakening the church, as though an inconsistency obtained. What a shallow criticism. The church suffers to some degree at the hand of various members, including those who have not studied as much as they should (Heb 5:12), deacons who are not industrious, elders who make unwise choices, members who do not give as much as they should, song leaders who cannot carry a tune, Bible class teachers who do not spend enough time in lesson preparation, preachers who only dispense milk and not meat, etc. Am I to become a Diotrephes (cf. 3 Jn 9,10) and cast them all out of the church? Has Michael Hatcher withdrawn Christian fellowship from every child of God who is a weakening factor in the church?

I knew Bob Berard. He was a former teacher while I was in preaching school, and a personal friend before dying on the Cambodian mission field in 2003. He was a righteous man "of whom the world was not worthy" (cf. Heb 11:38), who was verbally accused without mercy and shamefully treated by some of his own brethren, though a day of reckoning is fast approaching. I do not want anybody, friend or foe, to be lost. But I will say it is disgusting the way some supposed Christians treat other brethren with whom they disagree over a matter that does not affect their obligations to Christ, or the way we worship God.

Mac Deaver has held three public debates on the Holy Spirit, all of which are in print. He is willing to do it again, especially since no opponent thus far has been effective at overcoming the arguments presented. Most of his opponents have even made a very poor case in making their own argument. As one acquainted with him, I can say that Mac Deaver rejects both Calvinism and modern day miracles of any stripe. Any charge to the contrary is unfounded. I may not be able to stop you from distributing or believing what Hatcher and others write, but, if you would like to ask Mac Deaver, himself, what he believes, I have his address. As he wrote in a manuscript appearing in the November 2000 Denton Lectureship book, many of us are out of touch with our own past. We have no clue what many of the pioneer preachers taught on the Spirit, merely assuming that the "politically correct" line issuing from one or two preaching schools among us must represent what the Restorers taught, when nothing could be further from the truth. Some of us live under a delusion which causes us to think a teaching is novel heresy when, in fact, it was advocated long ago by some of the most respected pioneer preachers.

Some have gotten way too hot under the collar on this question, and we need cooler heads to prevail before we rush out and sever sacred fellowship over a matter that has been blown out of all proportion in the minds of a few.

-Weylan Deaver
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#42
May 9, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
# 1. I can not figure out if you cant read or just want to continue lying about me. I believe in the indwelling of the HS. I will not be force to agree with your thoughts on indwelling.
#2. I never said the Spirit was given as given in NT times in the OT yet it was given to different people for all kinds of purposes.
#3. As far as a donkey you have no idea and neither do I how it indwelled the Donkey. By the way you have no idea and nor do I how that happens even today.
#4. As far as prayer of a Christian How dare you to even talk of such as the Spirit interceeds for that person to deliver the prayer to the Father and for you to speak of how a human prays denys the HS in a sense.
Then, why are fighting so hard against it????

Since: May 10

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#43
May 9, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Then, why are fighting so hard against it????
Stating what the text says about the HS is not fighting it is properly dividing the scriptures for learning. Why are you going into the sacred areas and proclaiming things that are not for our understanding?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#44
May 9, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>Stating what the text says about the HS is not fighting it is properly dividing the scriptures for learning. Why are you going into the sacred areas and proclaiming things that are not for our understanding?
To better understand the scripture, there has to come a point where the indwelling Spirit teaches us on a higher level than our natural inclinations can respond to.

When we become spiritually born again, something changes. Even though we still live in a physical body we have forever been changed, we become a born again spirit living in a natural flesh and blood body.

We have a helper.

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Then later while speaking to ordinary people many years removed from the cross John says:

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit" Rom. 8:16

This is truth that God wants us to know...
mopman

United States

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#45
May 9, 2013
 
It is there in our bibles that the Holy Ghost lives in his people. This ain't just some trivial matter it is a matter of doctrine as creed and Dave p said. It is kind of strange how picking some strings on my guitar to ChristIan songs is called sinning by some people but those same people can allow disagreement over the Holy Ghost and marriage divorce remarriage. That just ain't logic to me. You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you gonna put me in Hell over musical worship then I damn you to Hell over your disagreement on the dwelling of the Holy Ghost and over marriage divorced remarriage.

Since: May 10

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#46
May 9, 2013
 
mopman wrote:
It is there in our bibles that the Holy Ghost lives in his people. This ain't just some trivial matter it is a matter of doctrine as creed and Dave p said. It is kind of strange how picking some strings on my guitar to ChristIan songs is called sinning by some people but those same people can allow disagreement over the Holy Ghost and marriage divorce remarriage. That just ain't logic to me. You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you gonna put me in Hell over musical worship then I damn you to Hell over your disagreement on the dwelling of the Holy Ghost and over marriage divorced remarriage.
Its not logical that God would send Deity to die for sins of humans.

Since: May 10

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#47
May 9, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
To better understand the scripture, there has to come a point where the indwelling Spirit teaches us on a higher level than our natural inclinations can respond to.
When we become spiritually born again, something changes. Even though we still live in a physical body we have forever been changed, we become a born again spirit living in a natural flesh and blood body.
We have a helper.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Then later while speaking to ordinary people many years removed from the cross John says:
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit" Rom. 8:16
This is truth that God wants us to know...
I disagree. If the scriptures are not all we need to understand our christian walk then the HS himself told a lie. The HS is not given for higher learning. I can not find that thought in scripture would you please show me that. If that were the case you and I would not be having this discussion for we are indwelled and would understand it perfectly and not have confussion. Yet even Peter did have problems with understanding Pauls writtings. Was peter not indwelled?

You are in that area of speculation without biblical support.

The way we come to a clearer understanding of the text is study prayer and more study. At what point did you come to complete understanding? When did the Spirit REMIND you of all things that Christ taught or was that talking to those special pretext messengers?

A higher level then our natural inclinations can respond to???? Fancy nonsense words.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#48
May 9, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. If the scriptures are not all we need to understand our christian walk then the HS himself told a lie. The HS is not given for higher learning. I can not find that thought in scripture would you please show me that. If that were the case you and I would not be having this discussion for we are indwelled and would understand it perfectly and not have confussion. Yet even Peter did have problems with understanding Pauls writtings. Was peter not indwelled?
You are in that area of speculation without biblical support.
The way we come to a clearer understanding of the text is study prayer and more study. At what point did you come to complete understanding? When did the Spirit REMIND you of all things that Christ taught or was that talking to those special pretext messengers?
A higher level then our natural inclinations can respond to???? Fancy nonsense words.
It seems to me that I am using more scripture than you do.

How do you know you are a child of God?

The scripture tells us and then it is verified by the way we live and confirmed by the Spirit.

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister".

Rom 8:16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

There is far to much scripture for us to ignore this important issue of Spirit indwelling. It is there for good reason. We are not our own any more we belong to Christ-we have been marked by him. This is why I constantly use the term "christ in us our hope of glory".

We did not get saved and then turned loose for the wolves to devour. We are saved for a purpose and we should be properly equipped to fulfill that plan God has for us.

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD,“plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".

"To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory".

The mystery is revealed both in his written words and in our hearts/spirit.

Since: May 10

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#49
May 9, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems to me that I am using more scripture than you do.
How do you know you are a child of God?
The scripture tells us and then it is verified by the way we live and confirmed by the Spirit.
"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister".
Rom 8:16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
There is far to much scripture for us to ignore this important issue of Spirit indwelling. It is there for good reason. We are not our own any more we belong to Christ-we have been marked by him. This is why I constantly use the term "christ in us our hope of glory".
We did not get saved and then turned loose for the wolves to devour. We are saved for a purpose and we should be properly equipped to fulfill that plan God has for us.
"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD,“plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".
"To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory".
The mystery is revealed both in his written words and in our hearts/spirit.
Who was it that used scripture with Jesus in the wilderness? hmmmm

Good argument for you being right.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#50
May 9, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Who was it that used scripture with Jesus in the wilderness? hmmmm
Good argument for you being right.
Did you hear about that guy lost in the wilderness with his arm trapped by a boulder. He had to cut his own arm off to save his life.

Since: May 10

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#51
May 13, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you hear about that guy lost in the wilderness with his arm trapped by a boulder. He had to cut his own arm off to save his life.
The guy in the wilderness Im speaking of rightly divided the word of God even when the tempter quoted scripture that would seem right.:)
dont know your guy.

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