Indwelling of the Holy Spirit: UNITY IN DIVERSITY

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Since: Jul 11

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#1 May 7, 2013
Guy N. Woods and Gus Nichols, both highly esteemed for their biblical knowledge, publicly disagreed regarding the manner of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

“They did so, however, cordially and without a rupture of Christian fellowship.”- UNITY IN DIVERSITY

They both acknowledged that the role of the Holy Spirit today does not include any direct communication with the child of God. Therefore, their “disagreement regarding how the Holy Spirit” indwells the child of God was largely academic and of little practical consequence says one writer about them.

However, since their deaths, proponents of either of those two propositions have engaged one another in vigorous debate. The fellowship before enjoyed despite the “differing views” respecting the manner of indwelling of the Spirit has suffered a serious blow.

Many books have been written over the years that delineate the two primary propositions regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Some of them are:

The Word Of The Holy Spirit In Redemption by Franklin Camp; The Holy Spirit by V.E. Howard; Indwelling Of Holy Spirit (tract) by V.E. Howard; Questions Answered by Lipscomb and Sewell; The Gospel Plan Of Salvation by T.W. Brents; The Holy Spirit by Elmer L’Roy; A Commentary On Acts Of Apostles by J.W. McGarvey; The Holy Spirit by Max R. Miller; Exposition And Defense Of The Scheme Of Redemption As It Is Revealed And Taught In The Holy Scriptures by Robert Milligan; Gus Nichols’ Sermon Outlines by Gus Nichols; The Indwelling Of The Holy Spirit (article in the bulletin of the Heber Springs church of Christ, Heber Springs, AR, church of Christ, Vol. 3, No. 7, February 20, 1986) by Walter W. Pigg, Jr.; The Spirit And The Word by Z.T. Sweeney; The Mission And Medium Of The Holy Spirit by Foy E. Wallace, Jr.; Questions And Answers by Guy N. Woods; How The Holy Spirit Dwells In The Christian (tract) by Guy N. Woods; The Witness Of The Spirit by James W. Zachary.

Many articles appearing in “Gospel magazines” have been written in the past and numerous more are being written presently as the question of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit rises to the forefront of discussion again.

Most coc contend that as long as brethren acknowledge that the role of the Holy Spirit today does not include direct communication with or influence upon the child of God, they are content to sustain the Christian fellowship that proponents of either proposition enjoyed during the lives of brethren Nichols and Woods- U N I T Y I N D I V E R S I T Y
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#2 May 7, 2013
I believe it is obvious by these threads that unity in diversity goes only so far on some issues. Within the coc on this board, it appears that MDR and Spirit indwelling are matters of indifference-we can have differences of opinions and be ok. Instrumental music obviously not.

Unity appears to be dependent on conformity.

As we were discussing earlier about which doctrines can be ok to disagree on and still be saved, let's look at the Spirit indwelling for a second. The Holy Spirit is the seal, guarantee of salvation. Without the Spirit of Christ, we don't belong to Him. If some believe the only way the Spirit indwells the believer is through the Word, does the Spirit actually dwell in them? Are they truly sealed? Are they saved? If these people are in error, is this error going to condemn them?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#3 May 7, 2013
Yep, that is what I grew up with, however you should notice that these are all old time coc teachers and preachers. That concept is changing in the newer generation.

Personally, I believe that the HS does have direct influence on the believer whether or not he realizes it.

Christ in us is our hope of Glory. How else can he produce in us the fruit if the Spirit?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#4 May 7, 2013
Dave P wrote:
I believe it is obvious by these threads that unity in diversity goes only so far on some issues. Within the coc on this board, it appears that MDR and Spirit indwelling are matters of indifference-we can have differences of opinions and be ok. Instrumental music obviously not.
Unity appears to be dependent on conformity.
My point exactly! MDR and Spirit indwelling are matters of indifference by most coc while playing an instrument in the "worship service" will get you labeled an apostate. As you said, unity appears to be dependent on conformity.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#5 May 7, 2013
Dave P wrote:
I believe it is obvious by these threads that unity in diversity goes only so far on some issues. Within the coc on this board, it appears that MDR and Spirit indwelling are matters of indifference-we can have differences of opinions and be ok. Instrumental music obviously not.
Unity appears to be dependent on conformity.
As we were discussing earlier about which doctrines can be ok to disagree on and still be saved, let's look at the Spirit indwelling for a second. The Holy Spirit is the seal, guarantee of salvation. Without the Spirit of Christ, we don't belong to Him. If some believe the only way the Spirit indwells the believer is through the Word, does the Spirit actually dwell in them? Are they truly sealed? Are they saved? If these people are in error, is this error going to condemn them?
The human body shares in the dignity of ‘the image of God’: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit" (CCC 364,)
Mike Conner

Ballwin, MO

#6 May 7, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
My point exactly! MDR and Spirit indwelling are matters of indifference by most coc while playing an instrument in the "worship service" will get you labeled an apostate. As you said, unity appears to be dependent on conformity.
Differing in the manner of the spirits indwelling is not a matter of fellowship. I believe the reason being is because we dont have to understand exactly how God or the God head works. I mean the exact working of God. For instance the Godhead, we know there are three but do we fully understand that with our finite mind?

MDR on the other hand i believe is very different because it is dealing with repentance. And one must repent to be saved.

Mechanical instruments of music deals with worship. And according to john 4 we MUST worship in spirit and truth. So our worship must be according to what God has commanded.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#7 May 7, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
My point exactly! MDR and Spirit indwelling are matters of indifference by most coc while playing an instrument in the "worship service" will get you labeled an apostate. As you said, unity appears to be dependent on conformity.
The early churches weren't told to conform on everything. Respect to the weaker brother was also a consideration. Other than instrumental music, I see no reason for the coc to have nothing to do with Christian churches. They hold the same beliefs on baptism, many have the same views on MDR, Spirit indwelling is not an issue with them. I know many a fine believer in the CC. Many are as conservative as some in the coc.

Yet we are also never told why some issues aren't a big deal and others are. Does this same thing go on in other groups besides RM groups?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#8 May 7, 2013
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>
Differing in the manner of the spirits indwelling is not a matter of fellowship. I believe the reason being is because we dont have to understand exactly how God or the God head works. I mean the exact working of God. For instance the Godhead, we know there are three but do we fully understand that with our finite mind?
MDR on the other hand i believe is very different because it is dealing with repentance. And one must repent to be saved.
Mechanical instruments of music deals with worship. And according to john 4 we MUST worship in spirit and truth. So our worship must be according to what God has commanded.
I can use your same arguments on MDR and Mechanical instruments of music. It’s obviously clear that many coc do not fully understand MDR and Mechanical instruments of music with their finite minds. If our finite minds can excuse us on some things, logically we can use this argument on others issues. What may be clear to you may not be to others.

Since: Jul 11

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#9 May 7, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
we are also never told why some issues aren't a big deal and others are. Does this same thing go on in other groups besides RM groups?
Thats the million dollar question. Why is MDR disagreements okay while music in the 'worship service", is not? Mike pretty much answered this. It boils down to how "some" coc UNDERSTAND things. If they cant grasp something, they give themselves a pass but how dare someone else misunderstand something they supposedly understand.
Mike Conner

Ballwin, MO

#10 May 7, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats the million dollar question. Why is MDR disagreements okay while music in the 'worship service", is not? Mike pretty much answered this. It boils down to how "some" coc UNDERSTAND things. If they cant grasp something, they give themselves a pass but how dare someone else misunderstand something they supposedly understand.
How an infinite being works in many ways is beyond our understanding.

However the bible says explicitly to SING. It doesnt say tk play. Pretty simple.

Since: Jul 11

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#11 May 7, 2013
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>
How an infinite being works in many ways is beyond our understanding.
However the bible says explicitly to SING. It doesnt say tk play. Pretty simple.
No, it’s not “pretty simple” or there wouldn’t be disagreement within the church of Christ over this.

Dave made many points on this already. See his thread- New Guys debate on Psalms, etc.

When you see the word FAITH, does it mean faith alone? Why insert ALONE next to SING but you will not insert ALONE next to faith?

“Did you hear that man SINGING on the radio”- the word SINGING does mean he was SINGING ONLY. Maybe he had a band with him- maybe he didn’t. It can mean both/either.

“Come SING me a song Mike”- if you played the piano as you sang, SINGING still occurs thus the so-called command to SING still stands.

Not to mention, that in Paul’s day, the time he wrote his epistles, the word Psalm didn’t mean a capella. Psalms carried the meaning of instrumental accompaniment. They would have understood the word for what it meant at that time.

Also, Paul was NOT addressing a “worship service”. Are you not aware that some coc understand this thus they say you cannot even play musical aids at home to Godly lyrics.
mopman

United States

#12 May 7, 2013
Msn why waste your time on some of these men. Don't you know they probably get their paycheck from the church. It's hard to speak against your employer and keep the payday coming. They not stupid to admit they wrong or they could lose their rent money and grocery money.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#13 May 7, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats the million dollar question. Why is MDR disagreements okay while music in the 'worship service", is not? Mike pretty much answered this. It boils down to how "some" coc UNDERSTAND things. If they cant grasp something, they give themselves a pass but how dare someone else misunderstand something they supposedly understand.
Let's think about this. Notice first that the indwelling of the Spirit got swept under the rug, as did the fact that Mike and Mark disagreed over in the marriage/divorce advice thread about who was allowed to remarry. Doctrinal error damnable?

Now to MDR. Is error on this acceptable? Let's look at the results. First-let's say the traditional coc view is correct. Randy, myself, and others would be guilty of attempting to teach others they are ok to "live in sin". Would we be in trouble?

Now, what if Randy, myself, and others are correct and the traditional coc view is wrong. The traditional view would cause people to sin in order to "fix" their prior marriages. Some would be so discouraged at the thought of breaking up their current marriage they would not come to the Lord as a result. Would they be in trouble?

At least one of these two groups are in error. Both I believe are sincere in what they believe and practice. Is the erring group lost because of their understanding?

The Holy Spirit is a salvation issue, because without the Spirit we don't belong to Christ. But music? Does instrumental music negate the idea of singing and making melody to the Lord? I don't believe so.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#14 May 8, 2013
mopman wrote:
Msn why waste your time on some of these men. Don't you know they probably get their paycheck from the church. It's hard to speak against your employer and keep the payday coming. They not stupid to admit they wrong or they could lose their rent money and grocery money.
That may play a part, I'm not sure. I suppose it would be hard to go against the grain if it could jeopardize your livelihood. Mike and Mark were not on the same page on MDR but they quickly retreated once they realized this. I'm sure one or both will modify their comment as to appear on the same page. My real point: we all disagree at times- even those who profess they do not disagree on doctrine.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#15 May 8, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's think about this. Notice first that the indwelling of the Spirit got swept under the rug, as did the fact that Mike and Mark disagreed over in the marriage/divorce advice thread about who was allowed to remarry. Doctrinal error damnable?
Now to MDR. Is error on this acceptable? Let's look at the results. First-let's say the traditional coc view is correct. Randy, myself, and others would be guilty of attempting to teach others they are ok to "live in sin". Would we be in trouble?
Now, what if Randy, myself, and others are correct and the traditional coc view is wrong. The traditional view would cause people to sin in order to "fix" their prior marriages. Some would be so discouraged at the thought of breaking up their current marriage they would not come to the Lord as a result. Would they be in trouble?
At least one of these two groups are in error. Both I believe are sincere in what they believe and practice. Is the erring group lost because of their understanding?
The Holy Spirit is a salvation issue, because without the Spirit we don't belong to Christ. But music? Does instrumental music negate the idea of singing and making melody to the Lord? I don't believe so.
Lot of good points here. I'm always amazed how some say the Holy Spirit indwelling isn't a big deal. In others words, its okay to disagree on this because out "finite" minds cant grasp the truth on this yet its often debated within the coc. Obviously some think it can be understood. This is just as much doctrinal as is music in the "worship service".
Mike Conner

Ballwin, MO

#16 May 8, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Lot of good points here. I'm always amazed how some say the Holy Spirit indwelling isn't a big deal. In others words, its okay to disagree on this because out "finite" minds cant grasp the truth on this yet its often debated within the coc. Obviously some think it can be understood. This is just as much doctrinal as is music in the "worship service".
The question of the indwelling is HOW not IF. We are not denying an indwelling.

If its personal and literal, what is he doing?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#17 May 8, 2013
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>
The question of the indwelling is HOW not IF. We are not denying an indwelling.
If its personal and literal, what is he doing?
This is why you can not answer exactly what the HS does while indwelling the christian.

Deuteronomy 29:29

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#18 May 8, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
This is why you can not answer exactly what the HS does while indwelling the christian.
Deuteronomy 29:29
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.
I think I once made note of the connection many in the coc have with the catholic church. One of them is denying the full work of the holy spirit within the believer. It is hard for God to do his work in us when we resist him. Most times this is caused by doctrines that groups feel they need to defend-the doctrine becomes more important than truth. With denying the Holy Spirit (sweepimg him under the rug) the catholics feel they can hold on to control over the people by causing them to revere their pope and priest higher than God's word. The issue of traditions comes to mind.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#19 May 8, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I think I once made note of the connection many in the coc have with the catholic church. One of them is denying the full work of the holy spirit within the believer. It is hard for God to do his work in us when we resist him. Most times this is caused by doctrines that groups feel they need to defend-the doctrine becomes more important than truth. With denying the Holy Spirit (sweepimg him under the rug) the catholics feel they can hold on to control over the people by causing them to revere their pope and priest higher than God's word. The issue of traditions comes to mind.
So we know what you think of the coc. I was wondering what you thought of the verse of God that I posted.:)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#20 May 8, 2013
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>
The question of the indwelling is HOW not IF. We are not denying an indwelling.
If its personal and literal, what is he doing?
Here is the next verse that talks about the spirit and why we dont know how it operates as it indwells the christian.

John 3:8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

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