What is wrong with the world?

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Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#2
Aug 29, 2013
 

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I think we can unite our efforts with mass coordination to turn a failing society into a thriving society. We need to set aside our differences and our anger - we need to encourage action for the benefit of improving us all.

We need to forget about profit - profit and possessions are warping our minds - our precious capitalism has been corrupted and we have to think OUTSIDE of our broken societal system to find actual solutions to our new and ever forth-coming troubles. But I know we can do it - there ARE good answers to our hard questions!

Since: Jun 11

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#3
Aug 29, 2013
 

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Capitalism is the only human endeavor that has ever lifted millions upon millions out of poverty and servitude. By allowing the federal government to interfere, micro manage and thereby destroy free markets we have doomed the generations to come. So many people now consider the American Dream to be over.

Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the minimum wage, welfare entitlements, Obamacare and all the rest have destroyed the free market in this country. I doubt we will ever recover or even survive.

Forget about profit? That's insane. That can only be the words of a communist wannabe or an extraordinarily naive American who voted for Obama.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#4
Aug 29, 2013
 

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MarkEden wrote:
Capitalism is the only human endeavor that has ever lifted millions upon millions out of poverty and servitude. By allowing the federal government to interfere, micro manage and thereby destroy free markets we have doomed the generations to come. So many people now consider the American Dream to be over.
Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the minimum wage, welfare entitlements, Obamacare and all the rest have destroyed the free market in this country. I doubt we will ever recover or even survive.
Forget about profit? That's insane. That can only be the words of a communist wannabe or an extraordinarily naive American who voted for Obama.
Mark, I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with you. How amazing is that?

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#5
Aug 29, 2013
 

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I have united you two with your distaste for me. You're welcome.

However, I disagree! To continue pouring your hopes, dreams, time, efforts, trust, work, and emotions into a broken system is insane. You admit that our capitalism is corrupt, but you deny any sort of living outside of it. We have no choice than to participate in society's money games? Untrue - we have no choice but to live with the consequences of other's money sports - if we want to continue a quality way of living, us regular folk need to learn to depend on resources other than money. There ARE things that have worth OTHER THAN money.

I am not suggesting a sudden rejection of cash - certainly, I need my cash as much now as I ever have and I work hard to produce the most income for my household that I am able. But I accept a future where my tiny dollars are worth less and less - I am preparing myself to need less and less dollars - I am suggesting that everyone should think about it NOW before they have no choice.

Do you have no concerns for your future? Are you going to sit back and wait for it to jerk you around, or have you considered a: Plan B?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#6
Aug 30, 2013
 

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Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
I have united you two with your distaste for me. You're welcome.
However, I disagree! To continue pouring your hopes, dreams, time, efforts, trust, work, and emotions into a broken system is insane. You admit that our capitalism is corrupt, but you deny any sort of living outside of it. We have no choice than to participate in society's money games? Untrue - we have no choice but to live with the consequences of other's money sports - if we want to continue a quality way of living, us regular folk need to learn to depend on resources other than money. There ARE things that have worth OTHER THAN money.
I am not suggesting a sudden rejection of cash - certainly, I need my cash as much now as I ever have and I work hard to produce the most income for my household that I am able. But I accept a future where my tiny dollars are worth less and less - I am preparing myself to need less and less dollars - I am suggesting that everyone should think about it NOW before they have no choice.
Do you have no concerns for your future? Are you going to sit back and wait for it to jerk you around, or have you considered a: Plan B?
Are you one of the 48% on government assistance of some kind?

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#7
Aug 30, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you one of the 48% on government assistance of some kind?
Aw, Mike, what a rude question. It's not your business if people receive government assistance - our citizens receive what the government makes available to them - the government has arranged it so that it is the only logical thing for certain people to do.

But, for the sake of argument, I will be especially honest about my income and finances, so that you can better understand that 48% that you consider your personal burden. My spouse and I work very hard to bring home income from our jobs - we also care for my disabled father-in-law who is blind and has many medical problems and has endured a series of surgeries. My father-in-law is legally disabled and so, he receives a government subsidy and health insurance, like many elderly and disabled people throughout the US. The upkeep of my father-in-law is expensive and we would not be able to afford to care for him if he had no income - I am not ashamed to tell you that his government income contributes to the upkeep of my household - the household that takes care of a person who is unable to care for himself. When my father-in-law's needs become too many for my family to accommodate, my father-in-law and his government check will move on over to the nearest nursing home - I guess then you can consider me less of a freeloader.

Also, my son is looking forward to college - he, like all HS seniors, are encouraged to make it happen one way or another - if he keeps his pace, he may qualify for a "Promise" Scholarship: a state-funded full scholarship for ANY WV student who meets the criteria, applied to ANY WV college - would you shame my son for accepting that sort of shameful government assistance?

YOUR government - they one YOU support and YOU participate in - YOUR government makes these funds and opportunities available to our citizens because our citizens TOLD them to do it. Are you angry that people accept what is offered to them? You are proud of the Catholic Church's charitable efforts - are you angry at the people who receive the charity? Either you support charity or you do not.

However - you are mistaking my effort to disassociate myself with money as an effort to become dependent on the government. What I am saying is this: our society measures everything in terms of monetary value - it is a standard of comparison and it is an unreliable one, since our monetary system and our economy has been corrupted with crime and greed. Our capitalism is demanding our citizens to consume, consume, consume - I am saying: capitalism is trying to save itself and it is not really in our best interest to take it's advice. I say: reject capitalism and only consume what you need - reject the commercials and the businesses who tell you that you need what you don't really need. They are lying to save themselves. They are trying not to drown but no one can save the economy from drowning - the government is offering a socialist alternative and our citizens don't have any better choices. Soon that 48% will rise and it won't be our fault - it's the "something" that had to happen since our economy is failing - our government is trying to save us. You don't want to allow it - you still think our economy is salvageable.

Since: Jun 11

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#8
Aug 30, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Aw, Mike, what a rude question. It's not your business if people receive government assistance - our citizens receive what the government makes available to them - the government has arranged it so that it is the only logical thing for certain people to do.
But, for the sake of argument, I will be especially honest about my income and finances, so that you can better understand that 48% that you consider your personal burden. My spouse and I work very hard to bring home income from our jobs - we also care for my disabled father-in-law who is blind and has many medical problems and has endured a series of surgeries. My father-in-law is legally disabled and so, he receives a government subsidy and health insurance, like many elderly and disabled people throughout the US. The upkeep of my father-in-law is expensive and we would not be able to afford to care for him if he had no income - I am not ashamed to tell you that his government income contributes to the upkeep of my household - the household that takes care of a person who is unable to care for himself. When my father-in-law's needs become too many for my family to accommodate, my father-in-law and his government check will move on over to the nearest nursing home - I guess then you can consider me less of a freeloader.
Also, my son is looking forward to college - he, like all HS seniors, are encouraged to make it happen one way or another - if he keeps his pace, he may qualify for a "Promise" Scholarship: a state-funded full scholarship for ANY WV student who meets the criteria, applied to ANY WV college - would you shame my son for accepting that sort of shameful government assistance?
YOUR government - they one YOU support and YOU participate in - YOUR government makes these funds and opportunities available to our citizens because our citizens TOLD them to do it. Are you angry that people accept what is offered to them? You are proud of the Catholic Church's charitable efforts - are you angry at the people who receive the charity? Either you support charity or you do not.
However - you are mistaking my effort to disassociate myself with money as an effort to become dependent on the government. What I am saying is this: our society measures everything in terms of monetary value - it is a standard of comparison and it is an unreliable one, since our monetary system and our economy has been corrupted with crime and greed. Our capitalism is demanding our citizens to consume, consume, consume - I am saying: capitalism is trying to save itself and it is not really in our best interest to take it's advice. I say: reject capitalism and only consume what you need - reject the commercials and the businesses who tell you that you need what you don't really need. They are lying to save themselves. They are trying not to drown but no one can save the economy from drowning - the government is offering a socialist alternative and our citizens don't have any better choices. Soon that 48% will rise and it won't be our fault - it's the "something" that had to happen since our economy is failing - our government is trying to save us. You don't want to allow it - you still think our economy is salvageable.
Atlas Shrugged.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#9
Aug 30, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Aw, Mike, what a rude question. It's not your business if people receive government assistance - our citizens receive what the government makes available to them - the government has arranged it so that it is the only logical thing for certain people to do.
But, for the sake of argument, I will be especially honest about my income and finances, so that you can better understand that 48% that you consider your personal burden. My spouse and I work very hard to bring home income from our jobs - we also care for my disabled father-in-law who is blind and has many medical problems and has endured a series of surgeries. My father-in-law is legally disabled and so, he receives a government subsidy and health insurance, like many elderly and disabled people throughout the US. The upkeep of my father-in-law is expensive and we would not be able to afford to care for him if he had no income - I am not ashamed to tell you that his government income contributes to the upkeep of my household - the household that takes care of a person who is unable to care for himself. When my father-in-law's needs become too many for my family to accommodate, my father-in-law and his government check will move on over to the nearest nursing home - I guess then you can consider me less of a freeloader.
Also, my son is looking forward to college - he, like all HS seniors, are encouraged to make it happen one way or another - if he keeps his pace, he may qualify for a "Promise" Scholarship: a state-funded full scholarship for ANY WV student who meets the criteria, applied to ANY WV college - would you shame my son for accepting that sort of shameful government assistance?
YOUR government - they one YOU support and YOU participate in - YOUR government makes these funds and opportunities available to our citizens because our citizens TOLD them to do it. Are you angry that people accept what is offered to them? You are proud of the Catholic Church's charitable efforts - are you angry at the people who receive the charity? Either you support charity or you do not.
However - you are mistaking my effort to disassociate myself with money as an effort to become dependent on the government. What I am saying is this: our society measures everything in terms of monetary value - it is a standard of comparison and it is an unreliable one, since our monetary system and our economy has been corrupted with crime and greed. Our capitalism is demanding our citizens to consume, consume, consume - I am saying: capitalism is trying to save itself and it is not really in our best interest to take it's advice. I say: reject capitalism and only consume what you need - reject the commercials and the businesses who tell you that you need what you don't really need. They are lying to save themselves. They are trying not to drown but no one can save the economy from drowning - the government is offering a socialist alternative and our citizens don't have any better choices. Soon that 48% will rise and it won't be our fault - it's the "something" that had to happen since our economy is failing - our government is trying to save us. You don't want to allow it - you still think our economy is salvageable.
Your father in law is what the safety net is for.

Without capitalism, the government would have no money to take care of him.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#10
Aug 30, 2013
 
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Atlas Shrugged.
Fine, MarkEden, you win. I have never read this book, even though I have read The Fountainhead and have heard the story of Atlas Shrugged - since you have mentioned it like 10 times - I am literally purchasing the book on Amazon as soon as I post this. I do not purchase many books, but I will admit that this one is a true classic and relevant to our current events. Are you enjoying the way I am supporting capitalism by purchasing something I do not necessarily need? I agree that Ayn Rand has a unique point of view - an Atheist one, I'll add - which makes it sort of ironic that Conservatives love to promote her.

The movie, Atlas Shrugged, is on Netflix, so I think I will watch it tonight while I wait for my book to arrive in the mail. I won't put too much stock into it since I'm sure that it will pale in comparison to Rand's eloquent writing. You are schooling me, MarkEden - any suggestions about what I should try to grasp by reading this book?

Since: Jun 11

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#11
Aug 30, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Fine, MarkEden, you win. I have never read this book, even though I have read The Fountainhead and have heard the story of Atlas Shrugged - since you have mentioned it like 10 times - I am literally purchasing the book on Amazon as soon as I post this. I do not purchase many books, but I will admit that this one is a true classic and relevant to our current events. Are you enjoying the way I am supporting capitalism by purchasing something I do not necessarily need? I agree that Ayn Rand has a unique point of view - an Atheist one, I'll add - which makes it sort of ironic that Conservatives love to promote her.
The movie, Atlas Shrugged, is on Netflix, so I think I will watch it tonight while I wait for my book to arrive in the mail. I won't put too much stock into it since I'm sure that it will pale in comparison to Rand's eloquent writing. You are schooling me, MarkEden - any suggestions about what I should try to grasp by reading this book?
Atlas Shrugged II is on Netflix...another capitalist company. AS I was as well. What you can learn is that neither Mike nor anyone else owes you or your relatives one dime. His duty is first to himself then to his family or whomever he chooses. If Mike decides to help you out that should be Mike's decision and his alone. The purpose of government, particularly that of the United States, is not to redistribute wealth or insure equality of outcome. That has been tried time and time again and has always failed in a spectacular manner. And it is failing here now. Detroit is a prime example.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altruism.ht...

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#12
Aug 30, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Your father in law is what the safety net is for.
Without capitalism, the government would have no money to take care of him.
MANY of the 48% that bother you by accepting government assistance ARE legitimate, honest citizens who have earned and deserve support from their government. I know who you are upset about - the portion of the 48% who are using and manipulating our system so that they gain most by doing least. It's wrong, I agree - I am in no way encouraging anyone to reject capitalism in favor of robbing our government and indirectly, our citizens. I don't support crime or laziness - just the opposite - I support working for the sake of seeing a job finished - I support sharing so that everyone has enough, but not too much - I support teaching and coaching, cooperating and coordinating, synchronizing efforts to maximize benefits that are shared, not hoarded. I want to encourage people to forget that they are an individual for the sake of being a small part of something larger.

When we can no longer trust our government or our economy - we'll need to trust and depend on our neighbors. Do you honestly love your neighbors? Can you trust them? Do you make sure to lock your doors when you leave your home? Fortify relationships with people physically close to you. People will panic when they learn they can no longer trust money - I'm ready to help my neighbors learn to live outside of money - I'm ready to coordinate our efforts - I'm ready and I want you to be ready too. Are you ready?

Do you think I'm full of crap? Tell me what you predict will happen when our economy collapses. Will we all just keep living our lives as we are now? What do you expect to change?

You pride yourself for not being a government freeloader - how will you feel if it is the only logical choice you have left to care for your family? Do you think that will never happen to you? You are too special? Or too rich?

Last year, I spent approx.$7000 on family health insurance. Next year, it will be more expensive or maybe even unavailable - oh, except the government is offering the same healthcare benefits for about $3000. In the face of ridiculously steep inflation and little hope to increase my household income, I'm supposed to scoff at $4000 like I can afford to pay that much extra so I can proudly claim not to receive government assistance. Mike, c'mon. I live in the real world.$4000 is a gigantic drop in the bucket at my house! MOST of our citizens are living modest lives on modest incomes - we cannot afford NOT to do what our government wants, to accept their offer - the government is forcing our dependence on it.

At one time, capitalism created the money that the government handed out to the needy. Now the government just invents trillions of dollars and contributes it to a debt that will never be re-paid while distributing fake money throughout an economy they are ready to see implode upon itself. If you do not separate yourself from this, you will find yourself surprised and betrayed. Warning! Warning!

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#13
Aug 30, 2013
 
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Atlas Shrugged II is on Netflix...another capitalist company. AS I was as well. What you can learn is that neither Mike nor anyone else owes you or your relatives one dime. His duty is first to himself then to his family or whomever he chooses. If Mike decides to help you out that should be Mike's decision and his alone. The purpose of government, particularly that of the United States, is not to redistribute wealth or insure equality of outcome. That has been tried time and time again and has always failed in a spectacular manner. And it is failing here now. Detroit is a prime example.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altruism.ht...
Well, no work tomorrow, maybe I will stay up late for an Atlas Shrugged marathon. I'll assume you're it's biggest fan.

Thanks for pointing out how I am a capitalist and I participate in a capitalistic system. How could I not? I do not want to isolate myself from society. If I want to utilize the resources the world has to offer, in this country, I have little choice but to participate in capitalism to achieve results. I earn money, I pay bills, I enjoy the goods and services that I can afford - capitalism at it's best. But I do not expect this bliss to continue - I expect capitalism to fail me - I see a future of costs that far exceed my income. What then? I won't miss the Netflix near as much as the food.

Seriously, I'm going to watch those movies tonight - I hope they are as awesome as you say they are...
pearl

Layton, UT

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#14
Aug 30, 2013
 
"What is wrong with the world?" There is nothing wrong with the world itself except what has been done to it by expansionists. There is also nothing wrong with mankind, he is not flawed or inherently evil or sinful. But, when you have a culture with a main tenet of each man for himself, that culture will eventually fail. The people of such a culture are not so much corrupt as ignorant.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#15
Aug 30, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
"What is wrong with the world?" There is nothing wrong with the world itself except what has been done to it by expansionists. There is also nothing wrong with mankind, he is not flawed or inherently evil or sinful. But, when you have a culture with a main tenet of each man for himself, that culture will eventually fail. The people of such a culture are not so much corrupt as ignorant.
How would you suggest this problem be corrected? Can the wrong in the world be made right?

Are you suggesting that we should all focus less on ourselves as individuals and more as a collective unit?

HI Pearl - it is good to see you again.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#16
Aug 30, 2013
 
MarkEden wrote:
If the ultimate, extreme result of altruism is complete self-sacrifice - wouldn't the ultimate, extreme result of capitalism result in one ultimate winner who owns everything while all other participants are left with nothing?
pearl

Layton, UT

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#17
Aug 30, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
How would you suggest this problem be corrected? Can the wrong in the world be made right?
Are you suggesting that we should all focus less on ourselves as individuals and more as a collective unit?
HI Pearl - it is good to see you again.
Hello to you my friend, it's good to hear from you again also. Now, in response to your post...First we must acknowledge that there is indeed a problem, and that is starting to happen all over with people like yourself, since we are entering a new age, more and more people are rebelling against the status quo, so to speak. Tribal cultures still exist who do not suffer from the same ill effects that are present in western society. The reason is because they don't claim there is only one right way to live. While people from our culture may see these tribal people as primitive, in reality they live a much more sustainable lifestyle and have a different system of wealth. As an example, tribal cultures all have cradle to grave security, something that most here would scoff at, yet these cultures have lasted tens of thousands of generations. When a cultures tenet is each man for himself, the culture is doomed. I could go on and on, but I think it's a good start that we can even see there is a problem. But I don't think the problem is that mankind is sinful, it's that you have expansionists claiming there is only one right way to live, and that has been proven wrong.

Since: Jun 11

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#18
Aug 31, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
If the ultimate, extreme result of altruism is complete self-sacrifice - wouldn't the ultimate, extreme result of capitalism result in one ultimate winner who owns everything while all other participants are left with nothing?
On a small scale that is exactly what happens when businesses compete in a free market. Should the government step in and force the most successful business owner to hand over part of his profits to subsidize less successful or even failures to even the playing field, to give everyone a fair share? Should the accumulated wealth of a businessman, on which taxes have already been paid, be forcibly confiscated at his death and redistributed so 50 million people can receive food stamps and keep the ruling class in power?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#19
Aug 31, 2013
 
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Atlas Shrugged II is on Netflix...another capitalist company. AS I was as well. What you can learn is that neither Mike nor anyone else owes you or your relatives one dime. His duty is first to himself then to his family or whomever he chooses. If Mike decides to help you out that should be Mike's decision and his alone. The purpose of government, particularly that of the United States, is not to redistribute wealth or insure equality of outcome. That has been tried time and time again and has always failed in a spectacular manner. And it is failing here now. Detroit is a prime example.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altruism.ht...
I agree, but if capitalism has no heart for compassion-no people of God, then it is doomed to fail also. Early America was filled with believers/churches. The churches were often where the first schools held classes and the bible was often the only book for kids to learn to read. Look at the oldest universities, they mostly have christian names that reflect the denomination that started them.

Capitalism with no heart for God/churches will fail also.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#20
Sep 1, 2013
 
From the CATO Institute

Fifteen trillion dollars: That’s how much American taxpayers have forked over in the name of helping the poor since 1964. And what do we have to show for it? A poverty rate that has barely budged, an entrenched bureaucracy, and a population — like that of Greece and Portugal, two welfare-state basket cases — increasingly dependent on government handouts.

These are the conclusions of a recent Cato Institute report on the American welfare state by Michael Tanner, Cato’s director of health and welfare studies and author of The Poverty of Welfare: Helping Others in Civil Society. It is hardly an encouraging read, to say the least.

When President Johnson declared war on poverty nearly half a century ago, writes Tanner,“the poverty rate in America was around 19 percent and falling rapidly.” Increasing prosperity brought about by the free market, coupled with strong civil institutions such as churches, charities, and fraternal organizations, was already accomplishing the unthinkable: making poverty, the general condition of mankind throughout most of history, a rarity in the United States. A rising tide, as Johnson’s predecessor observed, does indeed lift all boats.

The man at the helm of the ’64 ship of state, however, decided the tide wasn’t rising quickly enough and so he would help it along by filling buckets with water from the port side of the ship and emptying them on the starboard side. Not surprisingly, this strategy failed to increase the water level. Thus, despite $12 trillion in federal welfare spending and $3 trillion in state and local government welfare spending over the past 48 years, says Tanner,“the poverty rate never fell below 10.5 percent and is now at the highest level in nearly a decade”— 15.1 percent and climbing.

“Clearly,” he adds,“we have been doing something wrong.”
“Government spends $20,610 for every poor person in America, or $61,830 per poor family of three,” Tanner reports.“Given that the poverty line for that family is just $18,530, we should have theoretically wiped out poverty in America many times over.”
The Money goes to the government workers that manage the programs and agencies that "help' the poor.

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#21
Sep 1, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, but if capitalism has no heart for compassion-no people of God, then it is doomed to fail also. Early America was filled with believers/churches. The churches were often where the first schools held classes and the bible was often the only book for kids to learn to read. Look at the oldest universities, they mostly have christian names that reflect the denomination that started them.
Capitalism with no heart for God/churches will fail also.
Naiveté on parade.

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