Splitting the Body of Christ
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#41 May 25, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not admitted that the rcc owns the bible!
Here is the test that you need to take.
Why do you believe in the rcc doctrines when their doctrines are not found in the bible?
See if you can find scripture for praying to Mary, praying to the saints, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant,or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.
I already know that you cannot find it-just do it I can wait but I already hear the silence. We are not that dumb Mike. Everyone here probably knows the scripture better than you do. You need us more than we do you.
Apostolic Succession:

Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

Acts 1:

20For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his encampment become desolate,
and may no one dwell in it.’
And:‘May another take his office.’o

21Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, 22beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.”p 23So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24Then they prayed,“You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” 26* q Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

Getting sleepy.

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#42 May 25, 2013
Apostolic succession continued:

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#43 May 25, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not admitted that the rcc owns the bible!
Here is the test that you need to take.
Why do you believe in the rcc doctrines when their doctrines are not found in the bible?
See if you can find scripture for praying to Mary, praying to the saints, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant,or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.
I already know that you cannot find it-just do it I can wait but I already hear the silence. We are not that dumb Mike. Everyone here probably knows the scripture better than you do. You need us more than we do you.
Infant Baptism:

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says,“Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized”(“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults.“Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes”(primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#44 May 25, 2013
Infant Baptisms cont:

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.

Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#45 May 25, 2013
Celibacy:

First of this is a Church practice and not dogma.

Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.

1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.

Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.

Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God's covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.

Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#46 May 25, 2013
Haven't got time for it now but you are taking a lot of liberty with the scripture and there is no way I will consider any rcc tradition.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#47 May 25, 2013
This stuck in my craw so I will address it now.

7 Now for the matters you wrote about:

“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

Now back to my statement a while back about homosexual priest. I said this might not happen if priest were allowed to marry. Paul is not commanding any man not to have relations with a woman, but rather gives them the power to choose not to have a help mate. In china there are men who will never be able to have a wife because of the population control-not enough women to go around.

See what I mean about taking liberty with scripture- making it say what you want it to say.

All of your answers appear to me to have come straight from a catholic book- in other words you did not learn that by reading the scripture.
William

Birmingham, AL

#48 May 25, 2013
You can tell that the RCC is just Warmed-Over Judaism easily. Just watch them site Old Testament Hebrew scripture to make a point about their church and church structure.

"It is finished" really didn't sink in to them.
William

Birmingham, AL

#49 May 25, 2013
Cite, not site.

Dad-gum phone.
Dave P

Duluth, GA

#50 May 25, 2013
William wrote:
You can tell that the RCC is just Warmed-Over Judaism easily. Just watch them site Old Testament Hebrew scripture to make a point about their church and church structure.
"It is finished" really didn't sink in to them.
Amen William!
Dave P

Duluth, GA

#51 May 25, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Haven't got time for it now but you are taking a lot of liberty with the scripture and there is no way I will consider any rcc tradition.
Indeed sir I agree.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#52 May 26, 2013
Bobby wrote:
This stuck in my craw so I will address it now.
7 Now for the matters you wrote about:
“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.
Now back to my statement a while back about homosexual priest. I said this might not happen if priest were allowed to marry. Paul is not commanding any man not to have relations with a woman, but rather gives them the power to choose not to have a help mate. In china there are men who will never be able to have a wife because of the population control-not enough women to go around.
See what I mean about taking liberty with scripture- making it say what you want it to say.
All of your answers appear to me to have come straight from a catholic book- in other words you did not learn that by reading the scripture.
That's what the Church does, allow person to decide whether or not to have a wife or not. There is the sacrament of marriage and sacrament of holy orders. Jesus leads one to discern one or the other. The Church forces no one.

You exactly described the Church's reason for celibacy from scripture.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#53 May 26, 2013
William wrote:
You can tell that the RCC is just Warmed-Over Judaism easily. Just watch them site Old Testament Hebrew scripture to make a point about their church and church structure.
"It is finished" really didn't sink in to them.
William: During the Last Supper (Passover Meal), three cups of wine were consumed. In Jewish Tradition, 4 cups had to be drunk or the Passover ceremony was incomplete.
Later, Jesus prayed: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done." What cup was he talking about? Luke 22:42
On the Cross, He said "I thirst" and was given sour wine, which would be the 4th Passover cup. After Jesus drank, He said, "it is finished".

Before that he had told us to behold your Mother, and Mary behold your son. He made a family so we could celebrate the new passover mean, the Eucharist together
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#54 May 26, 2013
William wrote:
You can tell that the RCC is just Warmed-Over Judaism easily. Just watch them site Old Testament Hebrew scripture to make a point about their church and church structure.
"It is finished" really didn't sink in to them.
Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. The OT is in the Bible so it is the inspired and inerrant word of God.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#55 May 26, 2013
Mike P- Here will be your answer to these. That is not what the verse means.

For almost all of these posts, I say you were right. That is not what the verse means.

Your church's "interpretation" is self serving and full of error, but since they're the oldest and "they were there to hear the apostles", they can't be wrong. So we better believe them, even though anyone exercising their ability to understand can see through the noise.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#56 May 26, 2013
Bobby wrote:
This stuck in my craw so I will address it now.
7 Now for the matters you wrote about:
“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.
Now back to my statement a while back about homosexual priest. I said this might not happen if priest were allowed to marry. Paul is not commanding any man not to have relations with a woman, but rather gives them the power to choose not to have a help mate. In china there are men who will never be able to have a wife because of the population control-not enough women to go around.
See what I mean about taking liberty with scripture- making it say what you want it to say.
All of your answers appear to me to have come straight from a catholic book- in other words you did not learn that by reading the scripture.
The Church is the pillar of truth. Not Bobby , William or Dave. The Bible says that and you have proven that is the posts you have written. You believe different things. You all can't be true.

Why wouldn't I use Catholic teaching to explain the Bible. It has been explaining it for 1600 years since it created it.

Now you are arrogant enough that only you know the Truth. Jesus taught me the truth through his Church. Whoever hears the Church hears him
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#57 May 26, 2013
Bobby: Your turn to answer questions.

Show me in the Bible what Jesus said is the pillar and Ground of the Truth.

Show me verses in the Bible that say the Bible is sole source of truth for salvation and that all you need to do is read it and the HS will you lead you the truth on how get to eternal life.

Show me in the book where Jesus said he would be happy with as many divisions in his Church that it takes for everybody to come to their own conclusion to reach their personal truth on what the Bible teaches.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#58 May 26, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
That's what the Church does, allow person to decide whether or not to have a wife or not. There is the sacrament of marriage and sacrament of holy orders. Jesus leads one to discern one or the other. The Church forces no one.
You exactly described the Church's reason for celibacy from scripture.
The word sacrament as defined by your catechism means
"efficacious signs of grace". And the word "efficacious" can mean treatments for the disease.

Now here is what I see. You guys think that by being celibate helps cure the disease of sin.

The scripture is clear that all sin and that the blood of Christ covers sin/blots it out. You guys are rejecting the grace of God-Jesus blood as being sufficient to wipe out sin. In fact you seem to have more faith in your ability to be good/righteous than in the promises of God. In other words you are only saved until your next sin!
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#59 May 26, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Bobby: Your turn to answer questions.
Show me in the Bible what Jesus said is the pillar and Ground of the Truth.
Show me verses in the Bible that say the Bible is sole source of truth for salvation and that all you need to do is read it and the HS will you lead you the truth on how get to eternal life.
Show me in the book where Jesus said he would be happy with as many divisions in his Church that it takes for everybody to come to their own conclusion to reach their personal truth on what the Bible teaches.
There are many divisions in the catholic church that you guys sweep under the rug. Ask me again when you solve those.

If there is to be any unity it must be based on our confession that Jesus is the Christ.

22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#60 May 26, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Bobby: Your turn to answer questions.
Show me in the Bible what Jesus said is the pillar and Ground of the Truth.
Show me verses in the Bible that say the Bible is sole source of truth for salvation and that all you need to do is read it and the HS will you lead you the truth on how get to eternal life.
Show me in the book where Jesus said he would be happy with as many divisions in his Church that it takes for everybody to come to their own conclusion to reach their personal truth on what the Bible teaches.
I will answer for you Bobby:

1st Timothy 3
14I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon. 15But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

What verse teaches Sola Scriptura. NONE the Bible does not mention the Bible.

Verses showing Jesus happy about splitting the Church up. NONE

John 17

20“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.m 22And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

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