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21 - 40 of 268 Comments Last updated Jun 29, 2013
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#21
May 18, 2013
 
I have talked to a lot of catholics through the years, even a few extended family members. None of them seemed to know what they believed or why they believed it, they only believed that they were lost outside the catholic church and by extension I certainly was. I call that faith in the church not necessarily faith in Jesus the Christ. Everything I read in scripture points to Jesus as savior not to his church. The church has never been the Savior and never will be. Faith in God and his only begotten is the only door to heaven.

Mike as long as you continue to worship your religion/church, I will not be able to follow you.

Are you listening Heath and Johnny?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#22
May 18, 2013
 
The Jews were God's Chosen People. They should have been proud.

Proverbs 16:5- "Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord; though they join forces, none will go unpunished". 16:18- "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall".

Obviously the point about the similarities with Judaism were missed or ignored.

*The demotion of God's written word in catholicism is very troubling. RCC can say otherwise; but tradition and early church fathers and precedent take priority over the actual scriptures. It has also been said that absolutely, catholicism has no intention of using the word of God only. One certain text is also abused to imply that people are not able, nor should, attempt to read and interpret scripture on their own:

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[b] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

To make this passage say that we should not or cannot personally interpret scripture is twisting the word of God. One of the key terms in 2 Peter 1 is "knowledge"-full and complete knowledge. We as individuals are called to add knowledge in our Christian walk. Peter then says he makes it his aim for the believers to know the things he has taught them with certainty.

Does Peter then direct us to his "successors"? Or anyone else for that matter? No, he addresses the written word of God at this point, the "more sure word of prophecy", the prophetic word confirmed. Peter, who personally witnessed the transfiguration, still directs the believers to the written word, not a person or successor or ANYONE else. Verses 20-21 then explain THE LIMITATIONS ON THE PROPHET. The word given him was not his own personal work, it did not come from him-he spoke and wrote as he was moved by the Spirit. This says NOTHING about an individual being able to read or understand scripture on his own. To the contrary, this was expected by Jesus and the apostles:

Jesus said to a lawyer in Luke 10:26- "What is written in the law? What is YOUR READING OF IT?" After the man answered, Jesus said, "You have answered rightly". Did this man understand?

Ephesians 3:4-"by which, WHEN YOU READ, YOU MAY UNDERSTAND my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".

1 Thessalonians 5:27- "I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren". This command was issued to-all the brethren.

Who did John write to in 1 John 2:12-14? How about all of Paul's epistles? Go look-they were addressed to all believers. NONE OF THEM WERE ADDRESSED TO THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP. Only Paul's letter to the Philippians even mentions the church leadership. Peter did not address his letters to church leadership; rather, to all believers. Why write and address letters to those who couldn't understand without it being explained by the leaders? This thought is foreign to God's word.

The only letters addressed to "leadership" are the letters to Timothy and Titus. Timothy was told to "do the work of an evangelist". The evangelist was given the qualifications for bishops in 1 Timothy 3. He was not a bishop. Titus was given the qualifications of elders in chapter one-elders and bishops are the same.

Peter also affirms that Paul's epistles are scripture-there was NT scripture in the first century. Peter also places the blame on scripture twisting to the false teachers who were doing so-not Paul for writing hard scriptures. Peter also said it was HARD to understand-NOT IMPOSSIBLE to understand. It would take wok and effort.
William

Cusseta, GA

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#23
May 18, 2013
 
Paul also told Timothy to STUDY, to show himself approved unto God (not man). A workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

STUDY.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#24
May 18, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
I have talked to a lot of catholics through the years, even a few extended family members. None of them seemed to know what they believed or why they believed it, they only believed that they were lost outside the catholic church and by extension I certainly was. I call that faith in the church not necessarily faith in Jesus the Christ. Everything I read in scripture points to Jesus as savior not to his church. The church has never been the Savior and never will be. Faith in God and his only begotten is the only door to heaven.
Mike as long as you continue to worship your religion/church, I will not be able to follow you.
Are you listening Heath and Johnny?
Because you are unsure of what your teaches is the full or even the right Truth, you claim I worship my Church because I know that Jesus started it.

If you are sure your Church is right, shame on you for not wanting in it.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#25
May 18, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
I have talked to a lot of catholics through the years, even a few extended family members. None of them seemed to know what they believed or why they believed it, they only believed that they were lost outside the catholic church and by extension I certainly was. I call that faith in the church not necessarily faith in Jesus the Christ. Everything I read in scripture points to Jesus as savior not to his church. The church has never been the Savior and never will be. Faith in God and his only begotten is the only door to heaven.
Mike as long as you continue to worship your religion/church, I will not be able to follow you.
Are you listening Heath and Johnny?
I need to proof read better.

Because you are unsure of what your Church teaches is the full or even the right Truth, you claim I worship my Church because I know that Jesus started it and it has the fullness of the truth

If you are sure your Church is right, shame on you for not wanting everybody in it.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#26
May 18, 2013
 
William wrote:
Paul also told Timothy to STUDY, to show himself approved unto God (not man). A workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
STUDY.
d

To study what Paul taught him. Not whatever he thinks it means. There is no where in the Bible that says everything you need to know is in the Bible and that anybody can determine what it means just by reading it.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#27
May 18, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Because you are unsure of what your teaches is the full or even the right Truth, you claim I worship my Church because I know that Jesus started it.
If you are sure your Church is right, shame on you for not wanting in it.
I am confident that Jesus is at work building his church because I have evidence of that in my own life.

Paul said: I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. You and I have no authority to take any credit. We either plant seeds or we water them-God is responsible for the increase. Only he has the power to impart new life. We are but workers in his vineyard.

No where in scripture are we told to worship the church!

I consider the church where I attend to be the true church/people of God but we are not the only people of God. Heck, even the word catholic means universal but they, folks like you, seem to no longer believe that.
William

Harpersville, AL

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#28
May 18, 2013
 
"To study what Paul taught him."

That is exactly right. What Paul taught him.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#29
May 18, 2013
 
William wrote:
"To study what Paul taught him."
That is exactly right. What Paul taught him.


Timothy the Bishop. So he could hand down the Truth by Letter and the Tradition I have taught you.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#30
May 18, 2013
 
William wrote:
Paul also told Timothy to STUDY, to show himself approved unto God (not man). A workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
STUDY.
Study what I have taught you by letter and the tradition.
Hello

Ashburn, VA

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#31
May 18, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Study what I have taught you by letter and the tradition.
Are you a pastor?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#32
May 18, 2013
 
"James the less intended to continue the dynasty of Jesus Christ through himself and his nephew....but though the nearest relative of Jesus, he least of all had understood his teaching. Stricter than the Pharisees, he aimed to subject to the Old Law the spiritual freedom that Christ and his followers had won for humanity."

"Paul in Antioch sensed the danger. The apostles and their disciples too, lived in voluntary poverty, in chastity, and in unconditional obedience. Peter and Philip were married, but like their wives, had no carnal desire. Everywhere the little communities, in mystical withdrawal, awaited the coming of the Lord. James's asceticism seemed to them devoid of mystery, soulless."

"If Peter in the eyes of subsequent ages was the first Pope-a title given to him when the official list was drawn up, with retrospective effect-one might call James the first anti-pope...what James was working for was a reformation of the old Jewish faith: basically he considered himself an hereditary high priest."

Peter also saw a vision of the Lord coming towards him along the Via Ardeatina. Peter asks, "Lord, whitherest goest thou in this form?" The Lord replied, "I am going to Rome to be crucified." Peter said "Lord, wilt thou be crucified a second time?"
"Yes Peter, I will be crucified again".

This all comes from a book entitled "The Chair of Peter: A History of the Papacy" by Friedrich Gontaro.
Hello

Ashburn, VA

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#33
May 18, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
"James the less intended to continue the dynasty of Jesus Christ through himself and his nephew....but though the nearest relative of Jesus, he least of all had understood his teaching. Stricter than the Pharisees, he aimed to subject to the Old Law the spiritual freedom that Christ and his followers had won for humanity."
"Paul in Antioch sensed the danger. The apostles and their disciples too, lived in voluntary poverty, in chastity, and in unconditional obedience. Peter and Philip were married, but like their wives, had no carnal desire. Everywhere the little communities, in mystical withdrawal, awaited the coming of the Lord. James's asceticism seemed to them devoid of mystery, soulless."
"If Peter in the eyes of subsequent ages was the first Pope-a title given to him when the official list was drawn up, with retrospective effect-one might call James the first anti-pope...what James was working for was a reformation of the old Jewish faith: basically he considered himself an hereditary high priest."
Peter also saw a vision of the Lord coming towards him along the Via Ardeatina. Peter asks, "Lord, whitherest goest thou in this form?" The Lord replied, "I am going to Rome to be crucified." Peter said "Lord, wilt thou be crucified a second time?"
"Yes Peter, I will be crucified again".
This all comes from a book entitled "The Chair of Peter: A History of the Papacy" by Friedrich Gontaro.
Matthew, Chapter 10, 33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Is Jesus your redeemer?

Yes or No?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#34
May 18, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
Matthew, Chapter 10, 33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Is Jesus your redeemer?
Yes or No?
Don't understand your point "Hello". I am arguing against catholicism in this thread, and these were quotes to help show how far off base scripturally catholicism is.
Hello

Ashburn, VA

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#35
May 18, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't understand your point "Hello". I am arguing against catholicism in this thread, and these were quotes to help show how far off base scripturally catholicism is.
Are you aware that you have denied acknowledging to me that Jesus is your redeemer?

Yes or no?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#36
May 18, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Dave: Proverbs 16:5- "Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord; though they join forces, none will go unpunished". 16:18- "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall".

Please don't cherry pick. Read the next verse about it talking about the sin personal of personal pride.

Are you proud of children? If you are you are an abomination based on this 1 verse.

Dave: 2 Peter 1
I don't see the point you are making. Of course we should come to the full knowledge. I don't see anywhere him saying anything about directing us to the written word that he was expecting us to interpret it on our own. Come on Dave, that personal interpretation of 2 Peter 1 is far fetched.

It does say "I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[h] to refresh your memory, 14 since I know that my death[i] will come soon, as indeed our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things"

Recall what he taught, not reinterpret. This verse is a nice one against SS. No need of private interpretation just like he said a few verses later.

Dave: Who did John write to in 1 John 2:12-14? How about all of Paul's epistles? Go look-they were addressed to all believers. NONE OF THEM WERE ADDRESSED TO THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP.

This epistle was for all of his Church. After all he was the leader, what we now call the Pope. Papal Encyclicals today are similar to this book.

(a little Bible history. This is one of the books that almost did not make the canon. It was hotly contested. The main reason was that there was a lot of doubt that it came from the Apostle Peter. If CC says it is insrired, it surely is)

Dave: Apostolic succession: Where are we directed to this?

So many to pick from and so little space. Of course Peter's decision to replace Judas is pretty obvious.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor,

Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#37
May 18, 2013
 
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you a pastor?
Are you? What Church.
Who Are You

San Antonio, TX

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#38
May 18, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you? What Church.
Matthew, Chapter 10, 33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Is Jesus your redeemer?

Yes or No?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#39
May 19, 2013
 
Who Are You wrote:
<quoted text>
Matthew, Chapter 10, 33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Is Jesus your redeemer?
Yes or No?
Are you a Troll?

Yes or
NO

Since: Jun 11

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#40
May 19, 2013
 
Try this. Walk through the doors of a 12th cathedral or small parish church. Look to your right and then left. Look up. Then look straight ahead. Now tell me you don't believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. Now walk into a 12th century CofC...oh wait there aren't any!

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