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Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#1
Jun 25, 2013
 
Pearl and I have been having a conversation about overpopulation, food supply, Christianity, and life in general. I'd like to continue it here. Feel free to join in even if you are not me or pearl.

So, Pearl, let's step away from Christianity to talk about these things because neither of us actually agree about what the Bible says about it. I believe that when you say: Christians, I say: society. You seem to think that Christianity formed society while I believe society formed Christianity.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#2
Jun 25, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
According to The Bible everything was here before man, who is supposedly his last and greatest creation. So if you were the first man, you would have looked around and would see other wildlife just like you who ate freely {food was free to all species. Why is that no longer true?} And if mankind is Gods greatest creation why does Christianity claim man is flawed? Is any other beast flawed? Finally there is a big difference between owning shoes and owning nature, that every beast in the world depends on for survival.
See, you are holding me to a belief that the Bible was right about giving the Earth to humans. I don't really believe this. I think the Earth is available for all species to share. Humans designed "ownership" to meet their own needs and when humans wrote the Bible, they included it so that it would improve the lives of humans. Human arrogantly WANT to be superior over everything - the Bible is a tool that has allowed this to be true. It's not really true - it is only true when people "believe" it to be.

Why isn't food free? It is! The only reason it costs money is because humans have decided that it does and people go to the store and buy food rather than hunting or farming because they have been taught to do so.

Is man the greatest creation? Well, perhaps in the opinion of man. Is man flawed? Not at all - we have only been taught that we are. Are animals flawed? Nope. Are plants and oceans flawed? Nope. They are all exactly as they were meant to be.

To humans, owning land is like owning shoes - they were all purchased with money that humans made up.

It is society that has created these scenarios, not religion.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#3
Jun 25, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
Friend, it's not my intention to insult you, but you keep claiming to be Atheist, yet think just like a Christian. I have nothing against a Christian person, it's the Christianity movement that is corrupt, not an individual Christian. You stated earlier that you think the world in overpopulated, but you don't think that is a problem. Have you not noticed that people already do starve to death everyday, in every part of the world? And yes people are resourceful and will take land from other cultures to grow more food to feed more people to allow for more people. It's a vicious cycle. I have nothing against farming, it's the agricultural expansion of people who claim dominion over everything including land used by others that is the problem.
Again, I can't help it - I was born Christian, I was taught Christianity, and I am surrounded by Christians right now. I am not a Christian because I do not accept Christ as Lord, I do not pray, I do not confess or repent from sin, and I do not expect to go to Heaven or Hell when I die. BUT Christianity taught me how to act and it is how I act, for the most part. I am tolerant of Christians and I expect them to be tolerant of me. I agree with Christianity in a lot of ways - but not the most important ways - and so I am excluded from being in the club. I'm cool with that - but I wish I could do some of the work that Christians do outside of a church - it has proven to be difficult since everyone I know is already in a church.

It is true that the world is over-populated but you seem to think humans ought to do something about it. No need. The Earth will take care of it - the Earth always has. Civilizations peak and then fall away. We are in the "falling away" stage and you are anxious as if it has never happened before. It's gonna happen. So, is it a problem? Well, its not MY problem.

Explain more clearly your idea of "agricultural expansion", I'm confused about exactly what you mean.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#4
Jun 25, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
We are going in two different directions. Yes, I live in the land of Mormons and mountains, there is still room out here to stretch, and yes Mormons like their big families. But I'm not blaming Mormons for overpopulation, though they do their share of reproducing. But to my point, what other group or species do you see overpopulating naturally? All species will reproduce to the extend of their food supply. Where else in the wild do you see a species overpopulating? You know,there was a time when all food was free for the taking, for all species including mankind.
OK - I live near a state park populated with wild deer. No one is allowed to hunt the land or feed the animals. SO, some years we see large numbers of really skinny deer and other years we see smaller numbers of well-fed deer. Their overpopulation is handled naturally by lack of food resources. If people did not hunt where I live, we would be over-run with deer. The deer would eat OUR gardens and out of OUR garbage because they do not know of ownership, so they will take what food is available. WE actively prevent this by hunting and that is how WE are preventing overpopulation of deer naturally, since humans are a part of nature too.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#5
Jun 25, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
We have more food than ever, yet none of it is free anymore, someone somewhere claims ownership of all of it. I know this feels normal to you, but it was not always this way. And agricultural expansion is why, just one example of the corruption.
I am with you 85%, but I think you are wrong about agricultural expansion.

I blame currency. Money is the reason people starve. The fact that food costs money is a direct result of the existence of money. Humans decided: no money = no food. If food were free, everyone would have some. HUMANS have decided that nothing is free. There ARE resources right now to feed everyone in our 7 billion person world population - EVERYONE. The only thing that prevents it is: money.

You claim that our current predicament feels "normal" to me - it is only normal because I accept that it exists. Money exists. Starvation exists. So, it must be normal. That doesn't mean it is correct or that it shouldn't or couldn't be changed. But I refuse to sit around wishing it were different - that's a waste of time. If I can make a change, I will - if I can contribute to convincing someone, anyone, that this "normal" state of living is just lame for all of us except those "winning" few, I will. I am doing what I can right now.

What are you DOING to change what you view as wrong? Do you feel hopeless and insignificant against our large, large troubles? Insignificant, you are - hopeless, you don't have to be. As with Christians, your significance will grow as your number of supporters grows. Can you blame Christians for wanting to organize and make changes to society? They are sincere in their efforts (usually). That doesn't mean you can't do the same.
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

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#6
Jun 27, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
I am with you 85%, but I think you are wrong about agricultural expansion.
I blame currency. Money is the reason people starve. The fact that food costs money is a direct result of the existence of money. Humans decided: no money = no food. If food were free, everyone would have some. HUMANS have decided that nothing is free. There ARE resources right now to feed everyone in our 7 billion person world population - EVERYONE. The only thing that prevents it is: money.
You claim that our current predicament feels "normal" to me - it is only normal because I accept that it exists. Money exists. Starvation exists. So, it must be normal. That doesn't mean it is correct or that it shouldn't or couldn't be changed. But I refuse to sit around wishing it were different - that's a waste of time. If I can make a change, I will - if I can contribute to convincing someone, anyone, that this "normal" state of living is just lame for all of us except those "winning" few, I will. I am doing what I can right now.
What are you DOING to change what you view as wrong? Do you feel hopeless and insignificant against our large, large troubles? Insignificant, you are - hopeless, you don't have to be. As with Christians, your significance will grow as your number of supporters grows. Can you blame Christians for wanting to organize and make changes to society? They are sincere in their efforts (usually). That doesn't mean you can't do the same.
No, I don't feel hopeless. I am aware that we have been living in a dark age, the age of Pisces. We are in a huge transition period, that I think is obvious, do you? Also I guess I should note, I'm not an Atheist.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#7
Jun 27, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>No, I don't feel hopeless. I am aware that we have been living in a dark age, the age of Pisces. We are in a huge transition period, that I think is obvious, do you? Also I guess I should note, I'm not an Atheist.
Oh, Pearl, I'm sorry - I jumped to the conclusion that you are Atheist by some of your comments about Christianity. What are your religious beliefs? I don't like calling myself an Atheist because folks immediately apply stereotypes to me and very few of them apply - but I don't know a better word to describe my beliefs.

"This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.." (Ragni), yes, I've heard. I read some info about the New Age movement and they liked mentioning that a lot. I'd say our "age" is a vague way to look at us - it does seem that our civilization is in decline as it would be if we are, in fact, at the end of our age. OK, then, I accept that it is the circumstances of our reality. Do you think that means our lives are going to explode with chaos and we will suddenly destroy ourselves so that we can be replaced by the next bunch? I suggest that the scenario would progress over many years and generations. I suggest that we will go out "Not with a Bang!, but a wimper." (Eliot)
William

Atlanta, GA

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#8
Jun 27, 2013
 
Hippies

LOL
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

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#9
Jun 27, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, Pearl, I'm sorry - I jumped to the conclusion that you are Atheist by some of your comments about Christianity. What are your religious beliefs? I don't like calling myself an Atheist because folks immediately apply stereotypes to me and very few of them apply - but I don't know a better word to describe my beliefs.
"This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.." (Ragni), yes, I've heard. I read some info about the New Age movement and they liked mentioning that a lot. I'd say our "age" is a vague way to look at us - it does seem that our civilization is in decline as it would be if we are, in fact, at the end of our age. OK, then, I accept that it is the circumstances of our reality. Do you think that means our lives are going to explode with chaos and we will suddenly destroy ourselves so that we can be replaced by the next bunch? I suggest that the scenario would progress over many years and generations. I suggest that we will go out "Not with a Bang!, but a wimper." (Eliot)
I really don't know anything about the New Age Movement. Like I said we have been in a dark age, we aren't even using all our senses. So I pay no heed to modern day movements. Though, we are emerging from that dark age, hence the decline in mono-theism, among other things related to the age of Pisces. The age of Aquarius will bring in a whole different global culture, and yeah these transitions take generations to occur. For those who regard this as hippie nonsense, all I can say is the history is there, if one investigates. Ancient Egypt among other civilizations lived in a golden age and had much knowledge regarding spirituality, among other things, which is lost in this age. It sometimes is mind boggling, that one can't see how much technology the ancients had, and assume we are more advanced, when we can't even figure out how they built a perfect pyramid.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#10
Jun 27, 2013
 
Wait a minute! Hippies don't = nonsense. Hippies are open minded and in touch with nature, astrology, philosophy - admirable qualities, if you ask me. I took it as a compliment and a fairly accurate description. Thanks for noticing, William.

Is Hippie a rotten insult these days? I have friends who take Hippidom to extremes - in the same way the Amish take Christianity to a degree that modern-living people couldn't tolerate. Their ideals are pure and honest - they don't compromise their views to fit within society; they mostly reject society and I can totally respect that. I, personally, choose to live within society and participate with my community even though I can see the corruption and false logic that motivates people - it doesn't make me want to stay away from them. It makes me want hang around them to enlighten them. Sometimes I accidentally get enlightened myself.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#11
Jun 27, 2013
 
"Shut your face, hippie."

"Hippie? Ain't been no hippies around for centuries, man. You been freeze-dried, or doing hard-time?"

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#12
Jun 27, 2013
 
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>I really don't know anything about the New Age Movement. Like I said we have been in a dark age, we aren't even using all our senses. So I pay no heed to modern day movements. Though, we are emerging from that dark age, hence the decline in mono-theism, among other things related to the age of Pisces. The age of Aquarius will bring in a whole different global culture, and yeah these transitions take generations to occur. For those who regard this as hippie nonsense, all I can say is the history is there, if one investigates. Ancient Egypt among other civilizations lived in a golden age and had much knowledge regarding spirituality, among other things, which is lost in this age. It sometimes is mind boggling, that one can't see how much technology the ancients had, and assume we are more advanced, when we can't even figure out how they built a perfect pyramid.
SO you are saying: abandon mono-theism and follow astrology? OK, I'm game. Does this mean I should check my horoscope? Let's try:

You overact today as old feelings and memories come to the surface. Certain events will trigger these childhood memories. This can be a bit overwhelming at times as the feelings that you buried years ago are searching for an outlet. This psychological cleansing will rejuvenate you with renewed energy.

Well, I can say this sort of thing has happened to me before - not a good description of today, though. I was able to leave work early - I made dinner - I weeded my flower bed. No overacting that I remember, or flood of memories. This stuff is malarkey.

Please tell me this is not what you meant.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#13
Jun 27, 2013
 
William wrote:
"Shut your face, hippie."
"Hippie? Ain't been no hippies around for centuries, man. You been freeze-dried, or doing hard-time?"
Here's a modern hippie:

"Boom!" (System of a Down)

I've been walking through your streets where all your money's earned,
Where all your building's crying and clueless neckties working,
Revolving fake lawn houses, housing all your fears,
Desensitized by TV - Overbearing advertising, God of consumerism
And all your crooked pictures looking good, mirror-ism,
Filtering information for the public eye, designed for profiteering,
Your neighbor, what a guy.

Modern globalization coupled with condemnations,
Unnecessary death, matador corporations,
Puppeting your frustrations with the blinded flag,
Manufacturing consent is the name of the game,
The bottom line is money. Nobody gives a f***!
4000 hungry children leave us per hour from starvation,
While billions spent on bombs creating death showers.

OK - this example IS sort of dated - I'll check around to find out what NEW rock star has taken up the cause..

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#14
Jun 27, 2013
 
Here's something recent, from the musical: Avenue Q

If you were gay, that'd be OK
I mean 'cause, hey, I'd like you anyway
Because you see, if it were me
I would feel free to say that I was gay
(but I'm not gay)

If you were queer, I'd still be here
Year after year because you're dear to me
And I know that you would accept me too,
If I told you today, "Hey, Guess what! I'm gay!"
(but I'm not gay)

I'm happy just being with you
So what should it matter to me
What you do in bed with guys?

If you were gay, I'd shout, "Hooray!"
And here I'd stay but I wouldn't get in your way
You can count one me to always be
Beside you every day to tell you it's OK
You were just born that way,
And, as they say: It's in your DNA.
You're gay!
(but I'm not gay)
If you were gay.

I don't know, I might be getting hippies confused with democrats..

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#15
Jun 27, 2013
 
How about Jason Mraz, he's a young hippie..

Well if you wanna get free
And if you wanna do the passionate thing
And if you wanna get smart
For the sake of your heart and all
You should own your name
And stand up tall and get real
And see the beauty in ugly

You know, I'm just not up to date on my music selections - my point: Hippies are alive and well! Any good hippie is still sitting around a fire singing songs from 50 years ago - those lyrics are timeless and still relevant.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#16
Jun 28, 2013
 
"Any good hippie is still sitting around a fire singing songs from 50 years ago - those lyrics are timeless and still relevant."

Going to California with an aching in my heart.- Robert Plant and Company
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

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#17
Jun 28, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
Wait a minute! Hippies don't = nonsense. Hippies are open minded and in touch with nature, astrology, philosophy - admirable qualities, if you ask me. I took it as a compliment and a fairly accurate description. Thanks for noticing, William.
Is Hippie a rotten insult these days? I have friends who take Hippidom to extremes - in the same way the Amish take Christianity to a degree that modern-living people couldn't tolerate. Their ideals are pure and honest - they don't compromise their views to fit within society; they mostly reject society and I can totally respect that. I, personally, choose to live within society and participate with my community even though I can see the corruption and false logic that motivates people - it doesn't make me want to stay away from them. It makes me want hang around them to enlighten them. Sometimes I accidentally get enlightened myself.
I'm glad you made note of hippies not equaling nonsense. I came of age in the sixties, and feel lucky for it. When William posted a derogatory statement about hippies my mind went straight to Eric Cartman, and since I know you are a fan of South Park, you must be aware of his dislike for hippies. It was a good episode.
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

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#18
Jun 28, 2013
 
William wrote:
"Any good hippie is still sitting around a fire singing songs from 50 years ago - those lyrics are timeless and still relevant."
Going to California with an aching in my heart.- Robert Plant and Company
Has stood the test of time, to prove to be the greatest band ever, along with Jimi and The Dead.

Since: Jul 12

Oceana, WV

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#19
Jun 28, 2013
 
These old lyrics are so modern, they're creepy.

Subterranean Homesick Blues (Dylan)

Johnnyís in the basement mixing up the medicine
Iím on the pavement thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat, badge out, laid off
Says heís got a bad cough, wants to get paid off
Look out kid, itís somethiní you did
God knows when but youíre doiní it again
You better duck down the alley way lookiní for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap by the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills and you only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot face full of black soot
Talkiní that the heat put plants in the bed but
The phoneís tapped anyway, Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May - orders from the D.A.
Look out kid, donít matter what you did
Walk on your tiptoes, donít try ďNo-DozĒ
Better stay away from those that carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose, watch the plain clothes
You donít need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get well, hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell if anything is goiní to sell
Try hard, get barred, get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail, join the army if you fail
Look out kid, youíre gonna get hit
By users, cheaters, six-time losers'll hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool lookiní for a new fool
Donít follow leaders, watch the parkiní meters

Ah get born, keep warm, short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed, try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts, donít steal, donít lift
Twenty years of schooliní and they put you on the day shift
Look out kid, they keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole and light yourself a candle
Donít wear sandals, try to avoid the scandals
Donít wanna be a bum, you better chew gum
The pump donít work ícause the vandals took the handles
William

Decatur, GA

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#20
Jun 28, 2013
 
LOL hippies are OK. Nice people, for the most part.

Just like everyone else.

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