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New Guy

Morehead, KY

#1 Apr 16, 2013
We have some here trying to teach that there were 2 gospels in the first century-the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus, Peter and the 12 preached to Israel, and the gospel of grace that Paul only received. Paul's gospel is the one intended for the church today. In this gospel people are saved by grace through faith alone, and water baptism isn't necessary for any reason. Paul's letters are for us today, but the rest are not. Is there anything to this? Much is made of the word "mystery". Let's do a short exam.

Jesus uses the word mystery to describe His teachings in parables, and that the disciples have been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom. This is the 12, before Paul ever came along. But let's go to Ephesians, which is the key text here.

Read Ephesians 1:9-10-"Having made known to US the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself; THAT in the dispensation of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ." Notice that Paul used the plural there. He was not the only one who received this mystery-and the mystery was the bringing together of Jew and Gentile into one body, the church.

Ephesians 3 gives more details. Read verses five and six. The mystery has been revealed to the holy apostleS AND prophets. Paul was not the only recipient of this mystery. And what is this mystery? That the gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body. THE SAME BODY. And partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. What promise? Read Galatians 3:8- the promise that through Abraham all nations of the world would be blessed.

To make it simple, the mystery was not revealed to Paul only, nor was it a "gospel of grace" differing from the gospel of the kingdom. Other apostles and prophets received this mystery, and it was the gentiles and Jews coming together into one body. I do not believe in the two gospel system, past or present, of hyper dispensationalists.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#2 Apr 16, 2013
Good thread! I totally agree.

I am sure William will set you straight though ;-)
William

Warrior, AL

#3 Apr 16, 2013
Why wasn't the mystery revealed to Peter, James, and John? Christ tapped 11 guys to preach "the gospel" but he fails to mention anything about "a mystery hidden in God from before the foundation of the world" to his chosen disciples?

Study to shew thyself approved, Bereans.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#4 Apr 16, 2013
Guys have you ever considered that the focus on faith in God that Paul tended to be on was simply because the Gentiles had not believed in God in many cases? Take his speech to the Greeks where he took what they believed and turned it back to point to God.

The Jews who already had a strong belief in God would not need as much focus on faith since they already had faith in God, thus Jesus had to be stressed as faith but because they already believed in God that faith was less an issue then with Gentiles.

And because of that circumstance it makes it appear there are two gospels. It would seem logical that this would play a factor in how things were presented and what was focused on.

Thus if you could already bench press well but were weaker in other strengthening tasks then we would work you on other things and do less with bench pressing.
Dave P

Duluth, GA

#5 Apr 16, 2013
Ephesians 3:5-6 says it was revealed to the apostles.

Work break.
William

Anniston, AL

#6 Apr 16, 2013
It sure was. Paul had to reveal it to Peter, James, and John in Galatians 2.

Which is also curious, in that P/J/J didn't then go out and preach "saved by grace through faith, and not of works". What does James 2 say about faith and works, again?

Not the same gospel.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#7 Apr 16, 2013
William, this theory of yours has lots of issues. First of all, Paul did not reveal his gospel to Peter, James, and John in Galatians 2. Peter is the man who received from Jesus the keys to the kingdom, and God revealed to Peter in Acts 10 that the gentiles had been made acceptable to God-which is what Paul himself said the mystery was. Paul said the mystery was revealed to the apostles and prophets. No mention of prophets in Galatians 2- but more importantly, it was Peter who informed the apostles and the church about the gentiles in Acts 11. Many believe the council of Acts 15 is the same as Galatians 2- so the apostles were all very aware of the gentiles being part of the body by then.

Another thing we haven't discussed is how this two gospel system makes God a respecter of persons. Jews had to repent, be baptized, be faithful to the end. Gentiles were saved by grace through faith only, and assured of salvation. Gods chosen people got the shaft right there if this is true. And so did those first gentile converts who heard Peter preach and not Paul. They had to repent, be baptized, and faithful to the end. Man, if only Paul had got there first.

Here is another issue. If Jesus and the 12 preached "the gospel of the kingdom" and Paul preached the gospel of grace, was Paul confused in Colossians 1:13 when he said we have transferred to the kingdom of His beloved Son. Kingdom? Thought that was for Jews only? And how about the Lord adding to the church daily in Acts 2-shouldn't this have said added to the kingdom daily, since the gospel of grace to the gentiles did not come until later?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#8 Apr 16, 2013
By the way, WIL has another great point. You must keep the audience in mind. Who you are talking to will determine how and what you will talk about. A Jewish audience or gentile audience makes a big difference.
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#9 Apr 17, 2013
William wrote:
It sure was. Paul had to reveal it to Peter, James, and John in Galatians 2.
Which is also curious, in that P/J/J didn't then go out and preach "saved by grace through faith, and not of works". What does James 2 say about faith and works, again?
Not the same gospel.
God went out of his way to make it clear to the Jews that the gentiles were acceptable to him, thus they were the same in his eyes. Also many people miss the point of James 2. His point is if you are of the faith you will show your faith by your works.

in other words a believer who is able to show good works but is unwilling to get into the fight is worthless to God and the cause of Christ. That's the point of James 2.

We all need to remember that while we have the responses of the Apostles we DO NOT have the letter's they received prompting their responses.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#10 Apr 17, 2013
Exactly so. We can glean from the letters, but for understanding the gospel - the 'gospels' are the place to go.

Romans and Hebrews are great books to get an overview of the fulfillment of all in Christ Jesus. And Revelation should help keep us on track and looking the right direction.
another gospel

Morehead, KY

#11 Apr 17, 2013
Dave P wrote:
By the way, WIL has another great point. You must keep the audience in mind. Who you are talking to will determine how and what you will talk about. A Jewish audience or gentile audience makes a big difference.
If the gospel were the same it would seem it would also have to be preached the same to both. Otherwise I am afraid you have two gospels. Actually the believing faith of the gospel was what the Jews lacked and needed to focus on more than the Gentiles. Didn't the Jews have a faith problem regarding the gospel?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#12 Apr 17, 2013
The Jews had a bigger problem accepting that Jesus was the One the OT was speaking of to come. Gentiles had more issues with their pagan belief systems, philosophy, etc. Same gospel preached to all, different ways of presenting those truths. It's no different today. Different audiences and cultures have different needs. Preaching in Africa or South America would focus a little differently than preaching in America. The gospel doesn't change, but the way we present it may have to.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#13 Apr 17, 2013
Historically, perhaps both Jews and Gentiles stumbled over the divinity of the Christ, that any man could claim divinity. We're quick to see the Jews crucified him over the matter that he claimed to be God. The Dome of the Rock phrasology fits best with a sect of Christians who believed that Jesus was a prophet only - sent by God, but not God, as 'god has no partner' and God is but One God. And to further their error, they eventually denied his death on the cross or resurrection three days later. There are primary elements of the gospel as once delivered that must be maintained if the faith once delivered is to survive till His return. We can see where those ended up who denied the death, burial and resurrection - that's old history we're still fussing with fruits thereof today.

The multitudes who ascribe to the 'faith alone','grace alone' gospels have already begun to show their fruits in supporting a number of things God declared evils from the beginnings.

We have been called to carry on the task of 'earnestly contending for the faith once delivered'.

Anyone who thinks Paul knew more about the gospel than Peter, James or John is patently deluded and have no knowlege of Christ, nor are they capable to have the 'word of Christ' dwell richly in them.

No disciple of Jesus Christ will ever deny the truth of what He taught. And while we may not have every word He ever spoke, what has been preserved by the providence of God must surely be taken to heart.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#14 Apr 17, 2013
Dave P wrote:
The Jews had a bigger problem accepting that Jesus was the One the OT was speaking of to come. Gentiles had more issues with their pagan belief systems, philosophy, etc. Same gospel preached to all, different ways of presenting those truths. It's no different today. Different audiences and cultures have different needs. Preaching in Africa or South America would focus a little differently than preaching in America. The gospel doesn't change, but the way we present it may have to.
The gospel of grace is the same all over the world. That is why the Jesus film has been so successful when presented in their native tongue. Our church supports this and our missionaries uses it where we get the opportunity. Imagine yourself standing in the crowd watching Jesus being crucified knowing what you know today-that he died for you also.



My main point is that coc methods are usually law based and lack any emotion to stir hearts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...
William

Birmingham, AL

#15 Apr 17, 2013
"Anyone who thinks Paul knew more about the gospel than Peter, James or John is patently deluded and have no knowlege of Christ, nor are they capable to have the 'word of Christ' dwell richly in them."

Galatians 2:11-14 (KJV)

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

So, Barnsweb, who "knew more" about the gospel here? Paul, or Peter?
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#16 Apr 17, 2013
Bobby, isn't it time to put the coc aside and get into the meatier discussion here? The issue here is about a fundamental change to what most people believe, that of two differing gospels. Do you think this has any merit at all? Are there indeed two different classes of people-as dispensationalism teaches? What say ye?
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#17 Apr 17, 2013
First of all, Paul did not reveal his gospel to Peter, James, and John in Galatians 2. Peter is the man who received from Jesus the keys to the kingdom, and God revealed to Peter in Acts 10 that the gentiles had been made acceptable to God-which is what Paul himself said the mystery was. Paul said the mystery was revealed to the apostles and prophets. No mention of prophets in Galatians 2- but more importantly, it was Peter who informed the apostles and the church about the gentiles in Acts 11. Many believe the council of Acts 15 is the same as Galatians 2- so the apostles were all very aware of the gentiles being part of the body by then.

Another thing we haven't discussed is how this two gospel system makes God a respecter of persons. Jews had to repent, be baptized, be faithful to the end. Gentiles were saved by grace through faith only, and assured of salvation. Gods chosen people got the shaft right there if this is true. And so did those first gentile converts who heard Peter preach and not Paul. They had to repent, be baptized, and faithful to the end. Man, if only Paul had got there first.

Here is another issue. If Jesus and the 12 preached "the gospel of the kingdom" and Paul preached the gospel of grace, was Paul confused in Colossians 1:13 when he said we have transferred to the kingdom of His beloved Son. Kingdom? Thought that was for Jews only? And how about the Lord adding to the church daily in Acts 2-shouldn't this have said added to the kingdom daily, since the gospel of grace to the gentiles did not come until later?

These are important questions about the idea being presented here. They should be addressed. Any thoughts? Anyone else see any dangers in a two gospel system?
William

Birmingham, AL

#18 Apr 17, 2013
"Are there indeed two different classes of people - as dispensationalism teaches?"

There WERE two different types of people, back when Peter and Paul both were around:

1. Those believing Jews, and gentiles who feared God and blessed the nation of Israel, and who feared the God of Abraham (Cornelius is an example of this type of gentile. So is the Ethiopian eunuch).

2. Gentiles who were alien from the commonwealth of Israel, and "strangers" from the covenants that God made with Israel. They were without God in the world, and had nothing to do with the goings-on of God and his dealings with the nation of Israel.

The Ephesian and Colossian gentiles that Paul wrote his letters to are this type of gentile. They show up in the second half of Acts 19, as worshippers of the goddess Diana.

But now, there is neither Jew nor Greek, as all are offered grace through the gospel that was given to Paul.
William

Birmingham, AL

#19 Apr 17, 2013
"First of all, Paul did not reveal his gospel to Peter, James, and John in Galatians 2."

Yes, he did.

They did not know Paul's gospel, and he had to explain it to them.
William

Birmingham, AL

#20 Apr 17, 2013
Galatians 2:1-2 (KJV)

1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them THAT gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Peter, James, and John did not know what Paul was preaching. He had to explain it to them.

Galatians 2:7-9 (KJV)

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Peter, James, and John after hearing of Paul's gospel and ministry, confined their ministry to believing Israel and let Paul go to the heathen.

They never left Judea. It is Paul, with the gospel of the grace of God, who went on into western Asia and Europe. Peter, James, and John never preached Paul's gospel to the circumcision, and Paul never preached the Acts 2 exhortation to heathen gentiles.

The events of Galatians 2 render all man-made churches, including the RCC, null and void.

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