Whst did God say the Spirit is for?

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Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#1 Jun 24, 2013
First, we must recall that God made the covenants of promise to the Jews first, and then through them, the nations of the earth.
Is 42:6; Jn 4:22; Eph 2:12,13; Gal 6:16 (the Israel of God); Rom. 2:28; Heb 8 (Israel and Judah). Jer. 31:31- the covenant was to Israel, not the Gentiles.

Ezekiel 36:26 prophecies specifically regarding why God would give His Spirit.'I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.' The very purpose of the good news preached by Christ and His holy Apostles was to lead us to this truth from God, and that through His spirit we are enabled to keep His words that lead to eternal life. As Peter said in Acts 5:32, God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

If we have the Spirit we will be lead to keep the covenant of God with Israel in Christ Jesus and seek to keep His commandments, statutes and judgments. And these things are known through His teachings - the doctrine of Christ given directly from the Father in heaven.

When Paul was teaching about living by the Spirit, it is in this understanding, that we live our lives because the Spirit in us leads us to keep His word - not live some ambiguous willy-nilly feeling that says God has set aside or destroyed His standards of righteousness that He said we are to live by. Those of God willfully seek out the revealed word of God to do it. Those not of God reject what He said because they don't want their illusions destroyed. God has called all men to repent to do His will.

So if the Sabbath is one of the 'big ten', and God judged Israel and cast them from the land of promise for not keeping it - how dare we think we will be found in the promises of God if we reject the same commandment and think it doesn't matter to Him.

Hebrews 8. if we are disciples of Jesus Christ, we all know the Lord and what He taught and we seek to do His will. But rejecting the commandment of God shows who has His truth and who doesn't know what He taught. Indeed, the sermon on the mount is the 'manifesto of Christianity', and foundational is that He did not come to destroy or set aside any commandment of God - let alone one of the 'big ten'. If we must rest as God rested from His work - then the Sabbath is boldly affirmed in the NT, not set aside. If Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath - this is re affirming the commandment of God with clarification that doing good is lawful on the Sabbath - He made that point repeatedly - He NEVER set one of the commandments of God aside.

And the Spirit - the true Spirit of God - will testify that this is true - but do we believe? Do we reject false teachers to turn to do the will of God and proclaim the Original Gospel of Jesus Christ? Or do we just want to belong to a religious country club where we all just say we please God without actually doing whatever He said we are to do?

If God condemned Israel for not keeping the Sabbath - the seventh day of the week - then we are also condemned by God who do as Israel did when they rejected His Sabbath.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#2 Jun 24, 2013
Sabbath" (or "Shabbat") means "cessation," "rest," not "Saturday," so the accusations against Catholics concerning not fulfilling God's Old Testament Commandment to "keep Sabbath" are very moot. However, we are neither Old Testament Israelites nor practitioners of the post-Temple religion known as "Judaism," so we don't keep Friday Nights/Saturday days holy for their own sake, and we don't keep kosher, and we don't worry about carrying pencils or turning off light switches on the "Sabbath." We are not under the Mosaic Law (and Israel has never been under rabbinic law), but we are New Testament Israel, bound to obey the two great commandments -- to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves -- said two great commandments simply being more explicit in the Ten Commandments, which we are bound to -- not because they were given to Moses, but because they are the eternal laws of God, written into the hearts of men. The Sabbath 1, as in "day of rest," therefore, we do keep; like the Apostles, we keep it on Sundays, as "the Lord's Day," because it was on a Sunday that Jesus Christ walked out of His Tomb and proved that He fulfilled the Law.

God created the world in six days, and then "saw all the things that He had made, and they were very good." Then, "on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made: and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done." As He rested on that 7th day, He commanded Israel to rest with Him.

But He had that one, final work to do through His Son, Jesus Christ, a work predicted by the Prophets. This work was completed on the Cross ("It is consummated," John 19:30), and now the Sacrifice that allows the redemption of His now-fallen creation is commemorated and re-presented at the Mass. On Sunday, our priests offer the unbloody Sacrifice, the re-presentation of that same once and for all Sacrifice that led to that glorious Resurrection and, through which, if we accept, we may experience our own victory over the tomb. The Old Testament Sabbath was but a shadow of the Lord's Day to come.

Matthew 12:1-15
At that time Jesus went through the corn on the sabbath: and his disciples being hungry, began to pluck the ears, and to eat. And the Pharisees seeing them, said to Him: Behold Thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days. But He said to them: Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and they that were with him: How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the loaves of proposition, which it was not lawful for him to eat, nor for them that were with him, but for the priests only? Or have ye not read in the law, that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple break the sabbath, and are without blame? But I tell you that there is here a greater than the temple. And if you knew what this meaneth: I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: you would never have condemned the innocent. FOR THE SON OF MAN IS EVEN LORD OF THE SABBATH.

And when He has passed from thence, He came into their synagogues. And behold there was a man who had a withered hand, and they asked Him, saying: Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse Him. But He said to them: What man shall there be among you, that hath one sheep: and if the same fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not take hold on it and lift it up? How much better is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do a good deed on the sabbath days. Then He saith to the man: Stretch forth thy hand; and he stretched it forth, and it was restored to health even as the other. And the Pharisees going out made a consultation against Him, how they might destroy Him. But Jesus knowing it, retired from thence: and many followed Him, and He healed them all.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#3 Jun 24, 2013
When He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, He was affirming it was still part of the Law of God.

You agree Catholics don't keep it, but that isn't the question. The matter is what Jesus taught and practiced and what the apostles also taught and practiced. In Scripture we find Paul still keeping the appointed days and meeting together on Sabbaths. We don't find him meeting the Gentiles on another day to worship, but we do find Gentiles and Jews meeting together on the Sabbath. And as the commandment says,'Remember to keep the Sabbath', which we all know, as did they, that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Nothing you said above refutes one element I brought up... He is Lord of the Sabbath - and that is the seventh day, not the first day, when Pagans worshipped the Sun god.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#4 Jun 24, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
When He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, He was affirming it was still part of the Law of God.
You agree Catholics don't keep it, but that isn't the question. The matter is what Jesus taught and practiced and what the apostles also taught and practiced. In Scripture we find Paul still keeping the appointed days and meeting together on Sabbaths. We don't find him meeting the Gentiles on another day to worship, but we do find Gentiles and Jews meeting together on the Sabbath. And as the commandment says,'Remember to keep the Sabbath', which we all know, as did they, that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.
Nothing you said above refutes one element I brought up... He is Lord of the Sabbath - and that is the seventh day, not the first day, when Pagans worshipped the Sun god.
Nothing will ever refute anything you bring up. Jesus could tell you personally but you would refute that because he wouldn't have the right name for you.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#5 Jun 24, 2013
So Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and kept the Sabbath and desired for us to know more of the goodness of the Sabbath, so you're saying that's the way He told us to honor the First Day instead of the Seventh day?

He said He came to make good on the Torah and Prophecies and Covenant of God - and we're to be lead to believe this was to do away with the word of God that spoke of Him?

I don't see Him doing away with any of creation yet, and this should lead us to a sound conclusion.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#6 Jun 24, 2013
Most important is to look at what we have of His word. Later in the ministry He taught that the rest of the Torah hangs from the two greatest commandments - not that they replaced a one of them. The parallel of this from Paul was to note in I Cor. 13 that whatever we do must be done from love - or it is a useless thing to do. There is a link between obedience and love for God. This is why He said 'If you love Me, keep my commandments.'
William

Columbus, GA

#7 Jun 24, 2013
Numbers 15:32-36 details an account of a man who was caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and God told the Hebrews to stone him to death for it.

Still valid for today, ye Sabbath worshipers?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#8 Jun 24, 2013
This is really weird. From a baptist website. pastorhistorian.com

Quoting some Catholics. Of course he didnt use ST in front of them.

2nd Century A.D. 200
Tertullian in Africa:
“We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradiction to those who call this day their Sabbath.” Apology, Chapter XVI.

2nd Century A.D. 194
Clement of Alexandria, Egypt:
“He, in fulfillment of the precept, according to the gospel, keeps the Lord’s Day, when he abandons an evil disposition, and assumes that of the Gnostic, glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself.” Book 7, Chapter XII.

2nd Century A.D. 140
Justin Martyr:
“But Sunday is the day which we all hold our common assembly, because Jesus Christ, our Saviour, on the same day rose from the dead.” Apology, Chapter LXVII.
2nd Century A.D. 120
Barnabas:
“We keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day on which Jesus rose again from the dead.” Chapter XVII.

1st Century A.D. 96
St. John on Patmos:
“I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day.” Rev. 1:10.
1st Century A.D. 60
Luke, Asia Minor:
“And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them.” Acts 20:7.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#9 Jun 25, 2013
Believe it or not, there are 'early church fathers' who also mention the Sabbath instead of Sunday. Since my 'Sabbath to Sunday' book is on loan I won't be able to provide those quotes back in response. So let's look at the quote from John in Revelation and the evidence from Acts. Wouldn't that be even better to determine the matter than those who came later and may have been defending a change of practice? I've always found it best to get to the most original sources available - be it study of Mormonism or the actual unadulterated gospel messages.

Revelation is a unique book that is like a 'grand central station' of the Scriptures. As a theme, isn't the 'Day of the LORD' spoken of as the great day of the judgment of God? The revelation centers on the outcome of faithful men in Christ and the fate of those who rejected God, concluding in a telling of the opening of the eternal time wherein God dwells with men in the kingdom where righteousness dwells. The 'Day of the LORD' could best be recognized that John was given the vision of that time prophesied of in Scripture. If this isn't the day, then it would be reasonable to identify the day that Jesus most identified Himself with - which could well be the Sabbath, as He claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath. So there are two options that make good sense to me, although I believe the first to be most appropriate.

The Acts 20:7 passage is very clear to identify the day of the week - no question there unless it can be shown that the Greek was perverted. Not finding that to be the case at this time, then we are left to define what 'breaking bread' is. The common understanding is to share a meal. If the apostle was commemorating the Lord's Supper, wouldn't that likely have been identified clearly? When Paul wrote about the memorial in Corinthians he was clear in what he was saying. Is there any evidence that Luke would have reported the memorial as merely 'breaking bread'? Where is the textual support for this? The early Christian had meals together - we can know this from earlier reports. We can also find reports that the Christians were in Synagogues on the Sabbath, just as Jesus was teaching in the Synagogues in His ministry.

And as a modern historical evidence, there are Christians East of Jerusalem and in Africa who maintain they have always worshipped on Sabbath as Christians - both which groups were outside the influence of the Roman Church - but that's just a side bar to consider aside the Scriptural record.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#10 Jun 25, 2013
William wrote:
Numbers 15:32-36 details an account of a man who was caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and God told the Hebrews to stone him to death for it.
Still valid for today, ye Sabbath worshipers?
Was that before God gave Moses the Ten Commandments? This is just a hint that the separateness of the day preceded the Law and proves it predates the Law given to Israel. Does God still strike people dead over what goes into the collection for the Church? Or were both of those examples given to let us know the seriousness of these things in the judgment of God - that we are forewarned?

Jesus also spoke of gouging out our eyes or cutting off our hands - if sin actually proceeds from our hearts and minds - be by ignorance or willful sin - is either our eye or hand the source of our sin? He was making a point about the seriousness of sin and the dire need we have to repent and do what God said is right.

Matthew 28 goes hand in hand with Acts 1-3, which goes with every teaching of the Teacher and every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#11 Jun 25, 2013
Sunday worshipers judge the Sabbath worshipers.

God judged those of the covenant for not keeping His Sabbath as commanded and covenanted. Were the Jews (Israel/Judah) ever excused for failing to keep the Sabbath? God called them to repentance for many years before bringing judgment upon them. The Sabbath for the land is what excluded them from the land - 70 years in exile from the land...the promised land...the land of the covenant God made with Abraham... and could this be an example to us that we could also be excluded from the covenant by breaking His commandments?

Ever read 'Sinners in the hand of an angry God'?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#12 Jun 25, 2013
It's a simple matter to go to worship one day earlier. If it makes a difference to God, there should be no real harm or trouble to us to worship on Saturday instead of Sunday.

Is it true that people reject truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed? It isn't a matter of how hard it is or isn't - it's more about saving your job as a preacher. Truth is dead in the pulpits, not just the streets.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#13 Jun 25, 2013
And that's in the Churches of Christ who say they go to Scripture to know the truth! And how much further are those who go by the stated doctrines and decrees of men? Both sink to me.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#14 Jun 25, 2013
Samuele Bacchiocchi - Search for the Sabbath at the Vatican

this is a good video by Bacchicchi about the Sabbath on YouTube. A much kinder man than I imagined while reading his book...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#15 Jun 25, 2013
Too funny. The Vatican took a statue of Jupiter and put a crown on it and called it 'Peter'! So that's how 'Peter' became the head of the Catholic Church?
R-oman C-atholic SPROUL

New York, NY

#16 Jun 25, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Too funny. The Vatican took a statue of Jupiter and put a crown on it and called it 'Peter'! So that's how 'Peter' became the head of the Catholic Church?
Yes, but I like this tradition thing of the Catholics. You can make up anything and start a tradition. One thing is confusing though, why organize a canon if we are to put tradition ahead of it. I know they tried in every way to keep it out of the hands of the people but was the canon only symbolic or an accessory for show to impress the flock. We all know it was never intended to be in the hands of laymen. This infallible Pope would have to have made that decision and it begs to question, when the Pope tries to take away from the church what Jesus gave the church are they standing against the Lord? Is the Pope against Christ when demanding the church bow to him? Who is the Good Shepherd, the head of the church, the forgiver of sins? To whom will every knee bow the Pope or Jesus? The Pope attempts to replace the role of our Savior in many respects, unfortunately. I know this will not set well with Mark but I gotta mow the grass. Have a good one, you too Mark.
William

Birmingham, AL

#17 Jun 25, 2013
"Was that before God gave Moses the Ten Commandments? This is just a hint that the separateness of the day preceded the Law and proves it predates the Law given to Israel. Does God still strike people dead over what goes into the collection for the Church? Or were both of those examples given to let us know the seriousness of these things in the judgment of God - that we are forewarned?"

The 10 commandments were given in Exodus 20, and established the Sabbath for the Hebrews. God told these Hebrews to kill the man who picked up sticks via stoning, and they did exactly as God told them to do.

If you are going to advocate keeping the commandments today, then you must accept the consequences of what God's punishment was for breaking one of them.

Now do we today observe the Sabbath in the same manner as these Hebrews did, or not? If not, why not, according to the Bible? Why aren't we stoning people to death today who break the Sabbath?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#18 Jun 25, 2013
R-oman C-atholic SPROUL wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, but I like this tradition thing of the Catholics. You can make up anything and start a tradition. One thing is confusing though, why organize a canon if we are to put tradition ahead of it. I know they tried in every way to keep it out of the hands of the people but was the canon only symbolic or an accessory for show to impress the flock. We all know it was never intended to be in the hands of laymen. This infallible Pope would have to have made that decision and it begs to question, when the Pope tries to take away from the church what Jesus gave the church are they standing against the Lord? Is the Pope against Christ when demanding the church bow to him? Who is the Good Shepherd, the head of the church, the forgiver of sins? To whom will every knee bow the Pope or Jesus? The Pope attempts to replace the role of our Savior in many respects, unfortunately. I know this will not set well with Mark but I gotta mow the grass. Have a good one, you too Mark.
You are kind of creative. Tell me exactly how the Bible was kept away intentionally from hands of the people starting from 382 to 2013.

This will be interesting.

HINT: Better check how Bibles were created before 1470 and how many people could read.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#19 Jun 26, 2013
William wrote:
"Was that before God gave Moses the Ten Commandments? This is just a hint that the separateness of the day preceded the Law and proves it predates the Law given to Israel. Does God still strike people dead over what goes into the collection for the Church? Or were both of those examples given to let us know the seriousness of these things in the judgment of God - that we are forewarned?"
The 10 commandments were given in Exodus 20, and established the Sabbath for the Hebrews. God told these Hebrews to kill the man who picked up sticks via stoning, and they did exactly as God told them to do.
If you are going to advocate keeping the commandments today, then you must accept the consequences of what God's punishment was for breaking one of them.
Now do we today observe the Sabbath in the same manner as these Hebrews did, or not? If not, why not, according to the Bible? Why aren't we stoning people to death today who break the Sabbath?
Well, it doesn't seem right to think that God didn't want the regular folk knowing what He said. He spoke to everyone who came to Him, teaching them the very words of God. The mark of a manipulator is to withhold the guiding word and then say 'trust me to tell you what it means'. That reminds me of a president or political party that says 'Don't read that Constitution, it's outdated and times have changed. Trust me to tell you what it means today, and by the way, I'm your new dictator king and magic president. Trust me, I know best. All the while leading people down a rabbit hole instead of freedom in the truth. So long as you can keep people ignorant this may work for him, but not for them.

Surely God gave the examples in Scripture for our understanding of how serious sin is. Thankfully God is the judge and is the one to give to each man according to his own works.'Vengence is Mine, I will repay' is what He also said. God commanded Israel and gave one example, but the second example is more telling. He cast Israel out of the land and destroyed thousands who rejected His Sabbaths - and even for not giving the land it's due rest. Are we to ignore that? Isn't this example also to learn someting from?

I think His point is the same one that both Job and Solomon came to - that we need to stop thinking we know it all and just submit to the fact that we were created to serve Him, not ourselves, and that service to Him demands that we believe what He told us to do. Not that we twist things around, deny the basic truths, and then formulate some human 'justice' of our own to persecute those who don't submit to our perversion of the truth.

RCC isn't alone in this quilt. Just look at CoC and Instrumental CoC - the non instrumentalists put down and refuse to fellowship their own brethren just because they use a pump organ? God isn't that petty - and He isn't stupid either. He gave us every single word with the purpose of knowing Him and that we do what He said to become more like what our Creator intends us to become.

He calls us to love each other as He first loved us. Did He constantly put everyone down for not perfectly understanding? His life didn't say this, and He didn't example this in His death either, but when will we come to know the truth from Him by doing what He said?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#20 Jun 26, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You are kind of creative. Tell me exactly how the Bible was kept away intentionally from hands of the people starting from 382 to 2013.
This will be interesting.
HINT: Better check how Bibles were created before 1470 and how many people could read.
Better step back and formulate a valid response. Fact is more people can read today than any day in human history. The Bible is the best selling book in history, but as with other books that sit unread, most people wait to see the movie:-)

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