Marriage-Divorce-Remarriage
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#203 Jan 1, 2014
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>My guess is you ,your wife or someone very close to you is guilty of divorcing and remarrying for other reasons than fornication and you feel justified in re-translating the scriptures. The original word will stand regardless of how many times man and Catholics alter their traditions. Lets say it again since you have such a problem with it.
<quoted text> Now you show where I said anything wrong in that post.
You guessed wrong Clueless Proxy.

"Who may marry" used the correct translations in his post. Catholics alter their traditions? Proxy, are you so clueless that you fail to realize the traditional teaching on MDR IS Catholic teaching?

Yes there is a difference in divorce, "putting away", and writing out a certificate of divorce. Some background study in Jewish life in ancient times would help you tremendously.

Also the basic rules of interpretation- context, audience, etc.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#204 Jan 1, 2014
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>I responded to "Who May Marry" who made no mention of Paul or his quotes, neither did I. Then bipolar Dave comes along with his interpretation. You need to get that under control before it gets out of hand and causes serious problems in your life and those around you.I would have ti turn the question around on you. "Sure you understand this one right?"
You don't comprehend Paul's teachings on the OTHER THREADS around here, so are you sure you comprehend what's going on in this one? Geez.

You have to "ti turn" the question around on me? Funny stuff clueless proxy.

Not bipolar, but I do have opinions and interpretations. Which is more than we can say for you- all you know is "Catholics are wrong; BW is an 'original thinker'; and don't ask me anything about my beliefs".

Give us your beliefs and interpretation on MDR. Stand up and be counted. Don't be the guy that simply says everyone is wrong but never tells anyone why. Are you clueless or gutless proxy?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#205 Jan 1, 2014
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't comprehend Paul's teachings on the OTHER THREADS around here, so are you sure you comprehend what's going on in this one? Geez.
You have to "ti turn" the question around on me? Funny stuff clueless proxy.
Not bipolar, but I do have opinions and interpretations. Which is more than we can say for you- all you know is "Catholics are wrong; BW is an 'original thinker'; and don't ask me anything about my beliefs".
Give us your beliefs and interpretation on MDR. Stand up and be counted. Don't be the guy that simply says everyone is wrong but never tells anyone why. Are you clueless or gutless proxy?
He's got a healthy larger capacity for honest evaluation and reasoning about the word of God - not to mention character and honesty.

What do you see as your strengths?;-)
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#206 Jan 1, 2014
rudeness and name calling?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#207 Jan 1, 2014
Olethros wrote:
The Royse City Church of Christ website had advertised in its marriage/divorce page that they would "help" people break up their own families in order to be in fellowship with that Church of Christ. It used to say that but not anymore. It was taken down.
Which is the worse sin: divorce and remarriage or breaking up a family including children?
God laughs at the Church of Christ.
I doubt God is happy with any false doctrine taught to be truth. The fact is Jesus upheld the Torah, which allows for divorce. An Jesus also adds in Mt. 19 that the teaching on divorce is only for those able to receive it - it wasn't given to everyone? How else can we understand the matter? The Hebrew Matthew version says Jesus was judging them for not providing their divorced wives with certificates of divorce to allow them to remarry legally, which is why whoever married them was committing adultery. That makes the most sense to me. I've found a number of errors in the Greek translations that were perverted by Rome.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#208 Jan 1, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I doubt God is happy with any false doctrine taught to be truth. The fact is Jesus upheld the Torah, which allows for divorce. An Jesus also adds in Mt. 19 that the teaching on divorce is only for those able to receive it - it wasn't given to everyone? How else can we understand the matter? The Hebrew Matthew version says Jesus was judging them for not providing their divorced wives with certificates of divorce to allow them to remarry legally, which is why whoever married them was committing adultery. That makes the most sense to me. I've found a number of errors in the Greek translations that were perverted by Rome.
I agree with most of this. I think the whole remaining single idea is what wasn't given to everyone. The Greek to me isn't the problem; it's the translating into English and other languages, with our cultures getting in the way. I may not believe in the original hebrew version of Matthew, but that is a solid interpretation.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#209 Jan 1, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
He's got a healthy larger capacity for honest evaluation and reasoning about the word of God - not to mention character and honesty.
What do you see as your strengths?;-)
He's got a large capacity for simply saying catholics are wrong and agreeing with you. Honest evaluation and reasoning, character and honesty? That's very subjective.

As for name calling, after being called bipolar, having his head up his a**, and other things, I would say Proxy isn't so bad at it either.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#210 Jan 2, 2014
Guess we're all somewhat prone to being offended easily - I've lost count of how many times my own reactions have not been what they should have been or that I've gotten posters mixed up or that what I understood before to be correct actually wasn't;-) Since we're cautioned to not call names and such - we'd best consider the patience the Lord had with the first disciples and realize we are no better.....

Sometimes it's a fine line between "What?! Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?!" and the call to "speak the truth in love."

We should try to refrain knee-jerk reactions and try to be more thoughtful and respect differences as possible - with some it's basically impossible if they just name call others.

How much different history would have been without Paul. Would the whole period of 'Church-State' kingdoms have been able to hold their subjects in submission via the authority of God because Paul said so?
Preacher

Chicago, IL

#211 Jan 2, 2014
Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>Divorce and remarriage itself breaks up a family. The reason fornication is grounds for divorce is the two are no longer one flesh and the fornication makes that union unclean. They can receive forgiveness. If God forgives the adulterer they are not causing the future partner to be guilty of adultery that remarries them. They are not marrying an adulterer because God has forgiven that. To break that marriage up and reunite with the previous partner at that point would be adultery itself because they are married to another in the eyes of God if they are forgiven. My opinion anyway.
Nice try, sore loser!

Fornication is NO grounds for divorce at all! Only DEATH dissolves the one flesh bond! They can NEVER receive forgiveness until and unless they return to their ORIGINAL spouses! And in fact, to break that marriage up and reunite with the previous partner would NEVER be adultery, if the original partner is either never previously married, or recently divorced a partner who was an adulterer/adulteress.

For example, we take 4 people, Jim, Jake, Lisa, and Allison. Jim is originally married to Allison, and Jake is originally married to Lisa. One day, there is a quarrel between Jake and Lisa, and Jake divorces Lisa. Then another time, Allison divorces Jim because Jim is unable to get a full time job. In both cases, Jake has made himself and Lisa adulterer and adulteress, and Allison has not only made herself an adulteress, but Allison has also caused Jim to become an adulterer! One day, Jim meets Lisa for the first time, and they fall in love, and coincidentally Allison meets Jake and they fall in love. Eventually, all 4 get legally married to each other, Jim to Lisa, and Jake to Allison. Surprise! Both couples are now living in a perpetuating state of adultery! One night, Jim has a dream that he is having a talk with God, and God tells Jake; "You can not receive forgiveness for your adultery until you divorce Lisa and either return to Allison, or remain single for the rest of your life. Grace does NOT work like that! Neither does forgiveness. If you continue in your adulterous relationship with Lisa, you will go to Hell when you die. No ifs, ands, or buts, and no questions asked." Then Jim wakes up with horrible, painful guilt in his heart, and then Jim's own spirit tells him that it is totally true, especially when Jim looks up Luke 16:18 and then the website http://www.cadz.net where it confirms what he was told in his dream. Surprise to Jim; he must immediately divorce Lisa and either return to Allison or remain single. Then another night, the same thing happens to Jake. And now, both couples are faced with the same situation. In order for all 4 people to be married in an acceptable and unsinful format to God, Jim must divorce Lisa and return to Allison, and Jake must divorce Allison and return to Lisa.
Dave P

Hiawassee, GA

#212 Jan 4, 2014
Preacher wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice try, sore loser!
Fornication is NO grounds for divorce at all! Only DEATH dissolves the one flesh bond! They can NEVER receive forgiveness until and unless they return to their ORIGINAL spouses! And in fact, to break that marriage up and reunite with the previous partner would NEVER be adultery, if the original partner is either never previously married, or recently divorced a partner who was an adulterer/adulteress.
For example, we take 4 people, Jim, Jake, Lisa, and Allison. Jim is originally married to Allison, and Jake is originally married to Lisa. One day, there is a quarrel between Jake and Lisa, and Jake divorces Lisa. Then another time, Allison divorces Jim because Jim is unable to get a full time job. In both cases, Jake has made himself and Lisa adulterer and adulteress, and Allison has not only made herself an adulteress, but Allison has also caused Jim to become an adulterer! One day, Jim meets Lisa for the first time, and they fall in love, and coincidentally Allison meets Jake and they fall in love. Eventually, all 4 get legally married to each other, Jim to Lisa, and Jake to Allison. Surprise! Both couples are now living in a perpetuating state of adultery! One night, Jim has a dream that he is having a talk with God, and God tells Jake; "You can not receive forgiveness for your adultery until you divorce Lisa and either return to Allison, or remain single for the rest of your life. Grace does NOT work like that! Neither does forgiveness. If you continue in your adulterous relationship with Lisa, you will go to Hell when you die. No ifs, ands, or buts, and no questions asked." Then Jim wakes up with horrible, painful guilt in his heart, and then Jim's own spirit tells him that it is totally true, especially when Jim looks up Luke 16:18 and then the website http://www.cadz.net where it confirms what he was told in his dream. Surprise to Jim; he must immediately divorce Lisa and either return to Allison or remain single. Then another night, the same thing happens to Jake. And now, both couples are faced with the same situation. In order for all 4 people to be married in an acceptable and unsinful format to God, Jim must divorce Lisa and return to Allison, and Jake must divorce Allison and return to Lisa.
Whole lotta spam here, and junk. Checked out the website- junk. Twisted scriptures and opinions pushed as truth abounded greatly on them. Even the above post contradicts Jesus and the law of Moses. Let's Americanize the gospel shall we?
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#213 Jan 10, 2014
Jeremiah 3:9 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.
Where in scripture did God have sex with Israel?
The point of the question is to show that God used the term adultery to describe spiritual unfaithfulness of Israel. So therefore since God has used adultery to call out Israel in the spiritual can you limit yourself to assuming that God is speaking of a physical act of sex as opposed to the breaking of the Spiritual covenant with God?

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

#214 Jan 10, 2014
Great study on the subject of MDR.

http://youtu.be/sY502EGPyHc
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#215 Jan 14, 2014
HEATH - 72 wrote:
Great study on the subject of MDR.
http://youtu.be/sY502EGPyHc
Amen! According to the reasoning given since Jesus said so, based on that logic if you gossip, murder, or commit any other sin you can not get forgiveness.

The debate isn't if someone should do this, the question is can they be forgiven of sin.

The answer is yes.

The other question the teaching asks is when is someone married is it after the ceremony and they get the certificate or after they are one flesh.

he said after the ceremony and I ask give me BCV of God stating that a man leaves his father and mother and stands before the preacher....

The truth is that a man becomes one flesh both being virgins creating a blood covenant with God. That means if you had sex with a virgin in your youth you are married to that person!

Two shall become one flesh.... So whom are you really married to?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#216 Jan 15, 2014
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
Amen! According to the reasoning given since Jesus said so, based on that logic if you gossip, murder, or commit any other sin you can not get forgiveness.
The debate isn't if someone should do this, the question is can they be forgiven of sin.
The answer is yes.
The other question the teaching asks is when is someone married is it after the ceremony and they get the certificate or after they are one flesh.
he said after the ceremony and I ask give me BCV of God stating that a man leaves his father and mother and stands before the preacher....
The truth is that a man becomes one flesh both being virgins creating a blood covenant with God. That means if you had sex with a virgin in your youth you are married to that person!
Two shall become one flesh.... So whom are you really married to?
Please tell us WIL when an adulterous relationship becomes not sinful? What was Pauls advice to those who desired to follow both Christ and Moses? Tell us when a murder is forgiven? Tell us when any sin is forgiven of and what the person response is to that forgiveness.
Donna Snead

Martinsville, VA

#217 Jan 15, 2014
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Please tell us WIL when an adulterous relationship becomes not sinful? What was Pauls advice to those who desired to follow both Christ and Moses? Tell us when a murder is forgiven? Tell us when any sin is forgiven of and what the person response is to that forgiveness.
Yeah WILL lol maybe instead of divorcing my drunk husband who beats me I should plant him 6 foot under then I can be forgiven and remarry. What a hoot you are Just Christian. What if a person is a sinner when they married in so called non scriptual way but later were saved? Some CoC say they can stay married but other CoC say they cant. Love that PATTERN you CoC have. Then you have some CoC say once a spouce dies who was involved in non scriptual divorce then the living person can marry. Yeah but other CoC say no you cant. I just love the CoC pattern lol. What a hoot
Walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#218 Jan 18, 2014
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Please tell us WIL when an adulterous relationship becomes not sinful? What was Pauls advice to those who desired to follow both Christ and Moses? Tell us when a murder is forgiven? Tell us when any sin is forgiven of and what the person response is to that forgiveness.
You assume the adultery is the physical act and not the breaking of covenant with God. Problem is that God used adultery to describe Israel's unfaithfulness against him, so your assumption that adultery is simply the physical is not backed up by the full meaning of the word.

Secondly whom are you married to?

And as Donna said, she is better off according to your view to murder her husband and then ask forgiveness and then remarry then divorce remarry and go to hell.

So as I said before God said that when two become one flesh you are married, whom are you married to, the woman you stood before the preacher with, or the young woman you slept with in your youth who was a virgin?

By the word of God you are married to the virgin you have become one flesh with before you stood in front of a preacher and said I do.

So if you want to go letter of the law you better walk the entire mile and start looking for your real wives!
Dave P

Hiawassee, GA

#219 Jan 18, 2014
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
You assume the adultery is the physical act and not the breaking of covenant with God. Problem is that God used adultery to describe Israel's unfaithfulness against him, so your assumption that adultery is simply the physical is not backed up by the full meaning of the word.
Secondly whom are you married to?
And as Donna said, she is better off according to your view to murder her husband and then ask forgiveness and then remarry then divorce remarry and go to hell.
So as I said before God said that when two become one flesh you are married, whom are you married to, the woman you stood before the preacher with, or the young woman you slept with in your youth who was a virgin?
By the word of God you are married to the virgin you have become one flesh with before you stood in front of a preacher and said I do.
So if you want to go letter of the law you better walk the entire mile and start looking for your real wives!
I wholeheartedly agree that "adultery" is more than a physical sexual act. Covenant breaking is the real problem that we should be looking at. At the time Jesus spoke, the act of adultery in sexual terms was punishable by death, but since Rome was in charge, divorce was the remedy. But, men could not technically be adulterers in that sense because under the law of Moses polygamy was allowed! Jesus however straightened out that idea. Adultery also is a matter of the heart, without the physical action to Christ.
Marriage is a covenant agreement between a man and woman. In Bible times, the state had nothing to do with marriage. I believe that should still be the idea, and I think that a marriage indeed begins when two people agree to marry, not at the point one stands before a preacher somewhere. And marriages end when one party decides to break the marriage covenant. A marriage is over a long time before divorce papers are filed. Divorce papers simply ask the state to recognize a fact that has already taken place.
*I don't necessarily agree that anyone we slept with we are married to; however I say this: how many people today will "shack up" and decide to enter into an exclusive, long term relationship? They will build their lives together, promise to be faithful to one another, have children, etc. In God's economy, isn't that truly a marriage? And if so, how many people are running around, just like in Jesus' day, with another person's spouse? Have we taken the sacramental view of marriage so far that now we don't even know what marriage really is?
Dave P

Hiawassee, GA

#220 Jan 18, 2014
Walkinginlove wrote:
<quoted text>
The other question the teaching asks is when is someone married is it after the ceremony and they get the certificate or after they are one flesh.
he said after the ceremony and I ask give me BCV of God stating that a man leaves his father and mother and stands before the preacher....
I stand with you in asking the same question. BCV for that please.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#221 Jan 21, 2014
Preacher wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice try, sore loser!
Fornication is NO grounds for divorce at all! Only DEATH dissolves the one flesh bond! They can NEVER receive forgiveness until and unless they return to their ORIGINAL spouses! And in fact, to break that marriage up and reunite with the previous partner would NEVER be adultery, if the original partner is either never previously married, or recently divorced a partner who was an adulterer/adulteress.
For example, we take 4 people, Jim, Jake, Lisa, and Allison. Jim is originally married to Allison, and Jake is originally married to Lisa. One day, there is a quarrel between Jake and Lisa, and Jake divorces Lisa. Then another time, Allison divorces Jim because Jim is unable to get a full time job. In both cases, Jake has made himself and Lisa adulterer and adulteress, and Allison has not only made herself an adulteress, but Allison has also caused Jim to become an adulterer! One day, Jim meets Lisa for the first time, and they fall in love, and coincidentally Allison meets Jake and they fall in love. Eventually, all 4 get legally married to each other, Jim to Lisa, and Jake to Allison. Surprise! Both couples are now living in a perpetuating state of adultery! One night, Jim has a dream that he is having a talk with God, and God tells Jake; "You can not receive forgiveness for your adultery until you divorce Lisa and either return to Allison, or remain single for the rest of your life. Grace does NOT work like that! Neither does forgiveness. If you continue in your adulterous relationship with Lisa, you will go to Hell when you die. No ifs, ands, or buts, and no questions asked." Then Jim wakes up with horrible, painful guilt in his heart, and then Jim's own spirit tells him that it is totally true, especially when Jim looks up Luke 16:18 and then the website http://www.cadz.net where it confirms what he was told in his dream. Surprise to Jim; he must immediately divorce Lisa and either return to Allison or remain single. Then another night, the same thing happens to Jake. And now, both couples are faced with the same situation. In order for all 4 people to be married in an acceptable and unsinful format to God, Jim must divorce Lisa and return to Allison, and Jake must divorce Allison and return to Lisa.
God said if a wife is put away (presuming with a certificate of divorce as commanded by the Torah), that if she had known another man, that if the first husband took her to wife again, that would be an abomination. So you appear to be supporting committing abominations and ignoring what God said and calling people stupid who don't agree with your abomination supporting doctrine?!

And you're a preacher? In what Church?

Who said let there not be many teachers, as they will receive the greater judgment?

Better look out buddy. If I were you, I'd shut my mouth until careful review of what God said is right and wrong.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#222 Jan 21, 2014
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
God said if a wife is put away (presuming with a certificate of divorce as commanded by the Torah), that if she had known another man, that if the first husband took her to wife again, that would be an abomination. So you appear to be supporting committing abominations and ignoring what God said and calling people stupid who don't agree with your abomination supporting doctrine?!
And you're a preacher? In what Church?
Who said let there not be many teachers, as they will receive the greater judgment?
Better look out buddy. If I were you, I'd shut my mouth until careful review of what God said is right and wrong.
Agree. Most of the traditional divorce teachings never take this into account. Nor do they consider that polygamy was acceptable back then; nor that from Exodus 21 I believe that the ancient scribes considered physical and verbal abuse as acceptable grounds to terminate a marriage covenant as well. This is one area modern Christianity has failed horribly to understand the culture involved those days.

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