Archaeology and Mormonism
A Brigham Young University graduate student will present his findings before a local audience June 21 that certain ancient cultures in Mesoamerica might be those discussed in the Book of Mormon. via Idaho State Journal
Join the discussion below, or Read more at Idaho State Journal.
#1 Jun 16, 2007
Book of Mormon is bull. Revelation 22:18 says do not add to the Bible. The Mormon book like the Koran occurs after Revelation was written. God says he will sends plagues against the people who add to the Bible or take away in Revelation 22:19. There is no Indian tribe called Maroni. No genuine artifacts. MesoAmerican cultures are traced back to Asia. 1)Ainu bear culture 2)Shang turtle culture 3)Chou jade/jadite culture 4)Nigerian Nok culture 5)Chou & Nigerian blend = Olmec culture 6)Bear culture extension northern United States 7)Turtle culture extension Gulf of Mexico 8)Arrival of Eskimos who worship animal spirits enter Canada 8) Polynesian headhunter society expands from Peru down the Amazon into the Carribean and the Mayan civilization decorating skulls embraces the headhunters around the time of Christ. 9)Eskimos wars with bear hunters reduce the Bear hunting civilization around 500 A.D. 10) 560 A.D. Buddhist missionaries enter Japan 11)Buddhist bring copper bells to Mexico. Mayans make gold bells. 12)Corn culture from Mayan Mexico flourishes in Cahokia, Illinois. 13) Bear culture still flourishes in Colorado- Indians called "Ancient Ones" Anastasi. 14) 1050 A.D. Anastasi civilization ends; Navaho, Hopi and Zuni are born. 15)Is the Mormon church going to match real Indian history revealed by artifacts & connected to Asia? Or is the Mormon church going to tell us they alone have a special revelation from God and we must call a special 1-800 in which they try to brain wash us to believing they hold secret truths? I believe God has told the truth in Revelation 22:18!-but see for yourself!
#2 Jul 20, 2008
Apparently, they can't handle the truth and prefer hocus pocus.
“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”
Since: May 07
The Mountain Empire
#3 Jul 21, 2008
Even facts won't shake their man made religion...
#7 Jul 25, 2008
Did you notice Willie borrowed the phrase "hocus pocus"?
Are they reading the board?
#8 Aug 5, 2008
Let me talk about a serrated knife and see if Willie works it into a speech.
Are they really turning the temple at HelDorado into a bbq joint and
beer swillerl place? Pig in the ground and beer on ice.
Willie got him some hawaiian shorts last week.
he blew out his flip flop
stepped on a pop-top
Eduard must be water logging my brain!
#9 Aug 5, 2008
I don't wish to rain on your parade, but the Bible didn't exsist when Revelations was written. The Bible is an anthology of Christian writings that are accepted as a canon, or as basic writings that are unargueble accepted by all members of the faith. Revelations 22:18 applys only to the Book of Revelations.
So who has the stones to tell God to shut-up and not speak to us any more? I don't. I will accept everything he wants to send my way as long as I'm confident it is from him. To do otherwise would be to damn myself, as it is the same as telling him to shut-up.
Since: Jan 08
Saint George, UT
#10 Aug 5, 2008
Its hard to pray about somethign when you don't get the whole story. The motivation to believe its true, the way its presented is pretty powerful. I've felt the mormon spirit so many times, its not what the mormons say it is. guess what, ALL religions have the "spirit". Its just a feeling, and you're asked to "ponder" things that you're not told the entire story on. The mormon story is full of good guys and bad guys, and its pretty hard to pray about and not get the mormon answer. That doesnt mean its true.
Or, Im denying the spirit and am going to outer darkness, because I was taught that the loving mormon god will send you there if you use your intellect, instead of your emotions.
#11 Aug 6, 2008
The gift of discerning of spirits is mentioned in the New Testament. One thing I've found that helps contrast spiritual energy, chi or ki (as the Chinese call it, or Ki as the Koreans do), is that there is a real energy or power that is generated by different physical & spiritual beings.
In the Martial Arts, for example, Thai Chi & other arts, that work on KI or CHI, you learn to detect, discern people's intent of harm, or good will with practice. You can learn to feel people's intent. There's a healing quality to "chi" or "KI" too. I have seen it work, experienced it, after a long time of study & practice.
In the case with music, there's an attractive power, or deflective power to music's spiritual energy that is created. Evil music attracts evil beings; good music, good beings.
In the bible, Saul, when tormented by a demon, has David play his musical instrument, until the demon leaves.(Can't think of the passage).
Those who aren't "past feeling" where they can "feel" or discern, will be able to discern between the spiritual energy behind music said to be inspired by evil bad spirits, & those inspired by good.
FEEL the contrast between the music in these links. Be sure to go into the good ones before your done here.
Many Rock & Roll band members talk about being possessed during their converts. Here's some links to some sources. If you dare!
Links to up-lifting, "edifying" music about Christ, etc. FEEL the contrast!
Those who can discern, can FEEL the differences. Why is this so?
Nephi in the Book of Mormon, testified that he wasn't might in writing, but when a person speaks by the power of the holy spirit, the spirit brings it into the heart of the person. There's references to these contrasts in spiritual energy all throughout the scriptures.
When the spiritual gifts faded out of the early Christian church, they resorted to what they thought was the next best thing; the dialectic arts! Thus, through debates & clever arguments, they sought to settle what they thought was truth.
A person with a Ph.D is more credible that one without. That's how a lot of people think today; for give us your "expert witnesses!"
Well it's becoming more & more my "spiritual experience" after years of study, that the "expert witnesses" of God, that there is a God, are from those who have claimed to be eye witnesses of God.
In near death studies, when people talk about seeing God in the after life, there's a discernible power behind their words, at least many of them. You can get the same type of "feeling" as you do in hearing or reading the words of prophets & apostles.
Now some may dismiss this as some kind of "brain washing," & that's their take on it. While others testify with words of power & edification, that carries a feeling of love & comfort, that they have learned the truths they believe in through having God answer their prayers by a communication of spirit to spirit. For we are spirits, on this earth having a physical experiences.
When prophets testify, they also edify, if one is spiritually in tune. If not, there might be things in their life that has gotten them out of tune, where they are "past feeling," (Ephesians chap 4).
#12 Aug 6, 2008
Before you start putting posts like this out you might to look at the history of the Bible. The word Bible comes from the Greek for Books. WHy is that ? Because untile the councel of niceen the Bible did not exist. See people wrote records and every local church had its own cannon. When the Boble was compiled the New Testament was not put in cronalogical order butrather grouped by type. The Gospels were put first because they spoke of the life of Jesus, Acts was put next because it was the acts of the Apostles after the resurection of Jesus, the Epistles were put next because they are letters to the different churchs and people, Revelation was put last because it did not fit with any of the others and was debated on its being true scripture. John himself infact wrote most of his writings after he wrote Revelation thus by your standard you must through all of JOhns work out. FOr by your standard he must be a false prophet because he violated that verse in Revelation. That means Revelation must also be throughn out as it was writen by John. But there is a bigger problem with your standard. You infact must through out everything after the Book of Dueteronomy. For that same warning is found there. Your standard means that nothing after that is true and thus by your standard you have just made Jesus a false prophet and not the Sono of God.
Since: Jan 08
#13 Aug 6, 2008
Joseph smith also said, the further you go in the mormon church, the more you leave neutral ground forever.
What if the gift of discernment tells you the church isnt true, thats its just a good, optional thing? that its man made like disneyland, or catholocism? Does my gift of discernment count? I've quite honestly always felt ive had discernment.
#14 Aug 6, 2008
Joseph Smith said that once one is exposed to the gospel no one can remain neutral: either you have to accept it or reject it. Ignorance of the gospel is the only excuse not to choose a side, but once you have learned what the gospel is about you must choose to either be on the Lord's side, or the side of opposition: the Devil's.
Is there a Christian, Jew, or Muslim that would disagree?
#15 Aug 6, 2008
Mr Zip, as far as I been able to determine from the research I'm currently doing. There's only one church that claims to have all the aspects of the early Church. The spiritual gifts, prophets & apostles, the doctrines, rituals, etc.
What you have to figure out is how & in what way God is going to witness to you that something that claims to be from him is true, or not, & to your benefit, or not.
What was the benefit of having these things in the past? What could it mean for the world today?
The best way to get a FEEL for what LDS prophets are saying is to go to hear them directly, not filtered through those who have an ax to grind & may be tempted to misrepresent what they allege they mean & say.
Thus, there are many sites there you can listen to them directly, old recordings, etc., old footage of conferences & addresses.
As you PRAYERFULLY listen, something happens, it's called "edification" in ancient times, as it is today. Most of the prophets talks are about developing Christ like traits in ones life. This is a good thing, cause if people follow such things, the people become more kind, loving, won't take things from you, won't kill you, etc., etc. One of their job descriptions is "for the perfecting of the saints," (Eph. 4)
The devil's music, heavy metal, etc, has a complete opposite effect, a negative spiritual energy, for the whole point is to demonify you as you go down the "left hand path," towards demonification, the complete reversal of deification (becoming like Christ). This is why during the 1950's through 1ate 1970's rock music retrogressed towards the dark side, with reversed messages & subliminal satanic & anti-Christ messages, unti during the 80's it became open, not hidden.
It comes down to what type of being your being influenced to become. I call it deification vrs. demonification!
#16 Aug 6, 2008
One of the evidence for the Book of Mormon that not too many people know about is this aspect of the two ways metaphorically hinted to in color garment symbolism.
There's "must needs be an opposition in all things," says the ancient American prophet Lehi to his sons. Thus, the two ways, or "two paths you can go by,(Led Zepplin). On leads towards God, where you become like him, cause he would rather you become like him than he would that you become like the fallen angels who rebelled against him. The other way, the board way,(Christ mentions), or the "left hand path," (Mentioned in occult lore & my many Rock singers), take you down a retrogression path towards where you'll "become like the devil," & his "fallen angels," the demons.
In satanic lore, symbols, ritualistic types, everything is reversed.
White garments is reversed to black
White sunday (the later Christian festival that reminded the Christians of their baptismal vows & white robes they were clothed in after baptism), is reversed to "Black Sabbath," there's a rock group by that name.
Symbols are turned on their head, etc.
I'll get into this in more detail for those interested. The point being is that there are spiritual forces at work to either demonify you or deify you. What will you become like?
Since: Jan 08
#17 Aug 6, 2008
Justin, how long have you been LDS? You don't need to explain ANY of this to me, as I've been through it all. I have had the "witness" of the spirit, prayed about my answer to the book of mormon, and I dare say I've probably read it more than you have. I might be wrong.
What you don't understand, is mormon spirituality is no different than baptist or lutheran spirituality. You get answers, based on the information you have. Doesnt the book of mormon tell you to read and "ponder?". Hard to ponder and discern when you dont have the full facts. Theres nothing to discern, only things to fear when you do it that way. Most of what you are afraid of, never happens.
I don't believe in following feelings like that anymore. Using my head and heart serves me much better, without all the control and complete domination of my life that mormonism seems to need out of a person.
Theres more than one right way, only mormons don't believe that.
Since: Jan 08
#18 Aug 6, 2008
basically what I'm saying is, Ive done it your way. The mormon way. I did it for YEARS, and was an active temple going mormon. You havent tried it MY way, where you read all the facts and read what your critics have to say. If the mormon faith is so strong, and you stand at sacrament meeting to all of your "I KNOW's" etc, then surely it can withstand what other normal people have to say about it, and you can pray about it and still get your answers.
If a new life changing product comes out, you google it to see what people might say about it. Mormons arent allowed to do that, you only get what you are told. then you pray about the fluffy stuff and get the warm feeling.
that whole way of thinking scares you, huh? Im sure people like me come up in discussions, and the word "satan" is used. well, im not led by the adversary. Im a guy with a wife and 3 kids who I love to death, who studied himself out the church and didnt try to add up what doesnt all add up. Thats why they tell you not to study the "deeper" parts of the gospel, because any rational person would have problems with them.
#19 Aug 6, 2008
As I've said on other threads, I don't go to any church at this time, but that could change. I've studies a lot about different religions, but have been interested in early Christianity & Mormonism because of how I see Mormonism as a restoration of what I've seen in historic Biblical early Christianity. I've also studied the occult, satanism, even took college classes in Criminal Justice credits where a cop, that is an expert on the different areas of the occult, presented the differences.
Being also in different Martial Art styles for over 30 years, in some of them that work on developing "Chi" or "KI" your abilities to detect the intent of people is increased, cause good people have good chi that they radiate, evil people, with bad intentions towards you, give off a negative "chi" that's detectable.
Thus, the same type of principle is in early Christianity & Mormonism. "The gift of discernment."
In the martial arts there's different ways your "chi" might be disrupted, or drained.
I think the same thing can happen to those that don't continually recharge their spiritual batteries, to use a metaphoric example.
You can become "past feeling" through drug & alcohol use.
Through the type of music you listen to.
Through the type of words you hear from others that are good or bad.
Through type of choices you make, especially if habitually bad.
Through lack of "feasting on the words of Christ!"
Through not praying!
As I've been following what has been suggested, that "your experiment on the word," in other words, follow the path where you are in environments, or live accordingly, pray, read the scriptures, etc. Watch what you say & do, repent, I've been noting lately that when I do this, I've become more "in tune" to the spiritual energy that people give off. Or that they speak from. That's why a lot of the research that I've done is now starting to come together to make sense.
I'm still listening to talks I've been finding on the net from LDS Apostles, & contrasting them with rock & roll messages. You can FEEL the difference. Now, all that intellectual learning, schooling, reading, years of study is now coming together for me to make sense. So it's not like I've set aside the intellectual aspect for feelings, but both are complimenting each other.
#20 Aug 6, 2008
Mr. Zip, you said you "studied" your self out of the Church. What did you study, give us some examples. If it was anti-Mormon books, etc., I'm very familiar with them, have read most of them. Contrasted them with early anti-Christian writings. One thing that I've noted from reading anti books & watching anti movies is, again a negative hate spiritual energy is felt. Why is it? When such things are suppost to come from "Christians"! Then, as I heard & read LDS apologists other side of the story, I started to note the disinformation tactics used, & ill intent of the critics. Perhaps you might recall feeling a similar feeling. Why is it that you can FEEL the intent behind the word in print or in other media forms?
Since: Jan 08
Saint George, UT
#21 Aug 6, 2008
well, IIRC, I've read the book of mormon, cover to cover, 10 times. Bruce R said you dont begin to understand it till you read it at least 7 times, So i took up that challenge. At least 3 more times from the BYU church study manuals, as well as scripture study. Ive read the bible cover to cover 4 times I think. THe D&C,POGP probably around 10 times also, plus study.
As far as books, I dont know totally, but I loved to read em so I did.
-Jesus the Christ twice (used to love Talmage)
-Miracle of Forgiveness (I really dislike that book)
-Marvelous work and a wonder
-Drawing on the powers of heaven
-The holy temple by Boyd K packer
-a few deseret book biographies: President kimball, benson, brigham young
-Read teachings of the prophet joseph smith, and his diaries
-The cleon Skousen thousand year series
-a bunch of others, I cant remember them all
I read the 7 or 8 volume history of the church and even geeked out so much I read the journal of discourses.
Remember that stage where you couldnt get enough? YOu were just drinking it all in? I had that for about 8 or 10 years. I went to the temple regularly, paid a full tithe and towed the party line.
What started loosening my bolts a bit at first was reading the official history of the church. It had stuff that seemed omitted. Spun, for lack of a better term. Journal of discourses had my hands full of brigham young. Ive heard it say you can prove, and disprove the church by just what he wrote.
I NEVER read a single unapproved book by the church untill about a year ago, when I finally told myself I didnt believe it anymore. Then I read Grant Palmers book -- a man who called it like it was and got disfellowshipped for it, and I read "no man knows my history". The ONLY Edgy book I ever read when I was a true believing mormon was Juanita Brooks, Mountain Meadow Massacre, and I still think thats a great book, that doesnt incriminate the church IMO.
Oh, and a read an ostling book, but i thought it was boring and didnt finish it.
I didnt read any "anti" untill about a month before my wife and I decided that we wanted to have our names off the record and be done with it. that was about one year ago. What I found interesting about your so called "anti" is its documentation. Its pretty well documented, and verifiable. Some of it I thought was crap, others seemed believable to me. Anytime someone has too big of an ax to grind, I have to question it. Oh, I also read "by his own hand upon papyrus"
I've seen the godmakers, and it was inaccurate, and pretty retarded.
I was an DL, ZL, and AP on my mission, served in several elders quorum presidencies, once as president. taught gospel doctrine as well as various primary, scouts, and young mens callings. Sealed in the Salt Lake Temple to my wife.
I sought the spirit daily, same as you. In the end, I came up with a different conclusion.
So I think Im qualified to talk about mormonism. How many times have you read the book of mormon? How many times have you read No man knows my history, or have you just read what Hugh Nibley had to say about it?
I hate the word, but "anti" mormon seems dark to you, because of what you were taught. Alot of it is historians, using documentation and trying to tell a story that just so happens to sometimes not tell it like the bretheren do, and thats a fact.
Since: Jan 08
Saint George, UT
#22 Aug 6, 2008
So Im on the devils side? wow, its not like the brochures.
#23 Aug 13, 2008
My Bibliography is extensive, which of course, doesn't make me an expert on anything.
I've read the Book of Mormon & listened to it on tapes all the way through about 5-10 times, lost count.
Pearl of Great Price, D&C & different bible translations.
Jesus the Christ; The Great Apostasy; Talmage
Marvelous work & a wonder
An Enemy Hath Done This, Benson, like his talks too, warning against secret combinations.
Found earlier Bibles interesting because of how they include "scriptures" not included in present day Bibles, plus pre-existence & temple type creation drama scenes. Bible illustrations of the council in heaven, war in heaven, satan & his angels being thrust out, etc.
The Lost Books of the Bible, 1926 Alpha House.
The Other Bible.
Prophecies of Enoch.(Jude 14.) The different translations of the Book of Enoch are interesting. War in heaven, fallen angels named & their job descriptions.
The Collected Works of Huge Nibley, found
Mormonism & Early Christianity, 1987 to compliment my on going studies of early to later Christianity.
Nag Hammadi texts
The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Early Christian writings before 325 AD
The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers (Writings during the Nicene creed era & after).
Here you can see what beliefs were defended, expounded on & later rejected or changed: Pre-existence, Christ preachings in the spirit prison, Christ world wide trek; deification (becoming gods), God head issues, etc. Temple mysteries. Missing scriptures:
Justin Martyr, A.D. 110-165, claims that the Jews had 'cut out' passages from Esdras, & from "the sayings of Jeremiah." It reads: "The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation."
Irenaeus 120-202 A.D. cites this passage a number of times in defense of his own particular interpretations of the doctrine of Christ's descent into the spirit world. Irenaeus says it's from from Isaiah, & Jeremiah, ANF 1:234-5, note 1 on p.235, & 451, 493-4, 506, 510, & 560
Ancient Text & Mormonism, by Eugene Seaich, 1983
John P. Lundy, Monumental Christianity, NY: J W Bouton, 1876.
Isis Unveiled, by H.P. Blavatsky, 1877
The Secret Doctrine, these books influenced Hitler & other Nazis, & have an anti-Christian, Atheistic blend to them.
Living in Salt Lake, I've spent hours in LDS historical library; talked to the Tanners, read their Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?
I found the Tanners,(Jerald before he passed away), & Sandra, to be nice people, but unable to deal with the parallels I kept showing them in early Christian writings, art works, etc., & early anti-Christian writings.
Like official LDS Church history, that selects, most of the times, the things that puts Mormonism in a brighter light; the Tanners, I found, like to point out "the shadows" or the negative. You read their quotes, check the original & find that they've selected only the parts that are then used to vilify the LDS.
Talked with numerous LDS Apologists & read their internet postings too.
Just to name a few!
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