Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 Full story: The Courier-Journal 135,203

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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Libertarian

Paducah, KY

#128563 Apr 18, 2014
You will never change my mind about tax funded "free and compulsory" public education. The whole damned system is corrupt. It has always been corrupt. It will always be corrupt. The only way to get rid of its corruption is to end it.

Ending it won't be easy, but it can be done. There is no way to kill such a beast with one blow. No. You have to kill it with the death of a thousand cuts. Starve it to death.

I am an advocate of the policy proposed by some Christian fundamentalists, although I do not share their end goal of forming a Church run school system. Taxpayers who pay the bills but don't have children in the public schools, and like myself did not benefit from them, should organize, get elected to local school boards, and then scuttle the ship from within.
curious

Ocoee, FL

#128564 Apr 18, 2014
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
No.
Secular morality is superior to religious morality in every way. In fact, you adhere to secular morality all the time. You just try to shoehorn your faith into it.
It is not about my personal morality.
Address the argument for once. Don't throw red herrings into the mix. I'm not talking about psychopaths. I'm talking about whether you believe it has EVER been ok to stone people to death for being gay.
Yes or no?
I have addressed that issue numerous times and have given my reasons as to why I believe as I do.
Let us put the issue in it's proper perspective.
When a law is created,it is based on a reason or reasons.
The atheists on this forum refuse to address the reasons that Go0d hyad for creating those laws andd what it was that he was trying to accomplish. I fully understand the reasons for their not willing to address those issues.
But,if they were to address those issues ,it would be very plain as to why I believe as I do.
The question is, what was God attempting to accomplish by instructing the JEWS on the type of behaviour that they should follow?
Are you willing to address those issues and if you do, then the answer to why I believe as I do., will become crystal clear.
Recently I asked that question , no one addressed it except Pre K and needless to say, in his inimitable foolish manner,he again confirmed the old adage
Tis better to be thought a fool and remain silent than to speak out and remove all doubt
Libertarian

Paducah, KY

#128565 Apr 18, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you were being dishonest. You were not born into a poor family because your family had already moved up into the middle class.
<quoted text>
And if there had been no public school in that area, you would have done what?
<quoted text>
Your particular school's failings are not an indictment of all public schools. Every school I attended, even at the elementary level, has had programs for advanced students. My son's elementary school has them now too.
You are twisting words to bend the truth. My parents were born dirt poor and went through the Great Depression which made them even poorer. They succeeded in making it into the middle class without the much vaunted high school diplomas. My father had to go to work. My mother was denied hers when she married him. They were Great Depression - World War II generation. When he was drafted they decided to get married. When they did the school expelled her. So much for patriotism and "support our troops" among the public school authorities. All she did was marry a soldier, but they behaved toward her as if she had become a prostitute.

What would I have done if there had been no public schools? Simple. My mother would have home schooled me, like she did unofficially anyway. I could have avoided the hellhole of public schools. But because of the school laws she could not do that. She could not home school even today because neither she nor my father had a shitty piece of paper called a high school diploma.

If you think college professors make $73,000 and up, I suggest you look at the job postings on a site called HigherEdJobs. Most start in the $30,000s. I've known several professors and none of them made over $50,000 - and that was after 20 years.
curious

Ocoee, FL

#128566 Apr 18, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Why? In every other instance, believing in something without evidence, or contrary to evidence, is a bad thing.
Why would a god make it an important thing? That's like telling people that in order to get to Heaven, they need to stick their hand on a stove top. Most people are going to say "Screw that. Sticking your hand on a stove top is likely going to turn out poorly."
Sticking your hand on a hot stove will undoubtedly turn out poorly....Bad and nonsensical analogy

Not believing in God also turns out poorly , let me count the ways..
1) Dyspepsia 2) loneliness 3) feeling abandoned and lost 4) anxiety 5) depression
6) Mental anguish , 7)Headaches 8) suicidial tendencies 9) more likely to abuse alcohol and drugs.... There are more,but these suffice
Hold on , one more
10) continuous and incessant debating,day in and day out and sometimes well into the night about a topic you believe to be nonexistent
Libertarian

Paducah, KY

#128567 Apr 18, 2014
An article from Lew Rockwell:

https://mises.org/daily/2937/What-If-Public-S...

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128568 Apr 18, 2014
Libertarian wrote:
You will never change my mind about tax funded "free and compulsory" public education.
Of course I won't. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reach through reason.

No amount of examples of successful public schooling will convince you it is a positive development. No evidence against your preferred system will convince you it's bad.
Libertarian wrote:
The whole damned system is corrupt. It has always been corrupt. It will always be corrupt. The only way to get rid of its corruption is to end it.
Wait, now it's corrupt too? Explain.
Libertarian wrote:
Taxpayers who pay the bills but don't have children in the public schools, and like myself did not benefit from them,
You did benefit from them and you continue to benefit from them though having a well educated populace, which is more likely to drive the economy and less likely to commit crime.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#128569 Apr 18, 2014
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I am very fond of that saying, as it encapsulates a truth that is offensive to nonbelievers
I already know that a substantial reason for your waking up each day is to be offensive, which is partly why your posts have so little to do with Jesus the Nazarite or his teachings - despite your occasional pretense of allegiance to his name. A "Truth" that contains no truth is nothing to be fond of, hypocrite.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128570 Apr 18, 2014
Libertarian wrote:
You are twisting words to bend the truth.
No, I'm not. You stated that you came from a poor family. This implied that you were raised poor, yet your later posts have described your father as a successful business owner who makes double what a professor makes.

Your parents being poor when they were very young doesn't mean you came from a poor family.
Libertarian wrote:
What would I have done if there had been no public schools? Simple. My mother would have home schooled me, like she did unofficially anyway.
Was your mother trained in education? Does she have high level knowledge of English, history, math, and numerous sciences?
Libertarian wrote:
If you think college professors make $73,000 and up, I suggest you look at the job postings on a site called HigherEdJobs. Most start in the $30,000s. I've known several professors and none of them made over $50,000 - and that was after 20 years.
Are you really arguing with aggregate statistics based on a few job postings you looked at on HigherEdJobs? Why don't you try looking at their own stats?

http://www.higheredjobs.com/salary/

If you have five 20+ year professor friends making under $50k, then I'm Bob Hope. I had a high school teacher who made 6 figures.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128571 Apr 18, 2014
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Sticking your hand on a hot stove will undoubtedly turn out poorly....Bad and nonsensical analogy
I didn't say the stovetop was hot. I said "sticking your hand on a stovetop". Most of the time, that's a bad decision and NONE of the time is it a good decision.

The same is true of believing things without, or contrary to, evidence. This is faith.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#128572 Apr 18, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Man, I got myself way, way behind on this thread.
Faith is one of the main reasons we are here on earth. If we had proof, there would be no need for faith. He is teaching us to become more like Him by listening to the promptings of the Holy Ghost in this life. Think of it this way: eventually your dad would have to put the saw in your hands and let you develop the skill. Just watching him all he time doesn't mean you can do it yourself.
I thought that the main reason God invented uhumans was to praise God (and unquestioningly obey His priests, shamans and witch doctors if He's unavailable) or rot Forever and Ever Amen in eternal anguish.... If His teaching is to be more like Daddy Dearest, what is y'all's issues with totalitarian megalomaniacs and criminal schizophrenic manic depressives?
Libertarian

Paducah, KY

#128573 Apr 18, 2014
No. You are the one who is clinging to a position against all reason.

Yes. Public education as an institution is corrupt. And getting more corrupt. Just look at the corruption cases recently in Atlanta. First it was teachers and administrators changing kids test answer sheets to make the school score higher so that they, the teachers and administrators, could get paid more money. Then it was a massive high school football scandal. Kids were recruited to go to certain schools and play football. One was allowed on the team who never went to a single class at the school.

In schools all over the country smart kids are sometimes forced to do school work for dumb ballplayers. I know I was - until I refused, got into a big row over it, was threatened with being expelled, and the principal and my father actually came to blows on our front porch. Me, I would never have used my fists on the bastard. I'd have used a large monkey wrench.

And programs for the "gifted"? Bullshit. I could read comic books and children's books before I stated first grade, but I got stuck in the slow learner group just because my parents did not have high school diplomas. That was the school policy. That still happens today. So don't give me your Socialistic "equal opportunity" shit. It is a damn lie. All of it. Public schools don't exist to give everybody an equal chance to compete. They exist to perpetuate the status quo. The whole system is designed so that nobody can rise from below no matter how great their potential is.
Mike D

Smyrna, SC

#128574 Apr 18, 2014
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
BTW I did it by the logic and reason provided in the Books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus and I do understand why you THINK stoning women for adultery is wrong,While I Believe in the teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ... He has provided me with the evidence where I can ,with good reason , place my Faith and Trust in Him.....
That is something that your unbelief ,YOUR logic and YOUR reason will not permit you to grasp.
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
I am of the belied that I HAVE BEEN HEALED and can unashamedly claim that
MY GOD LIVES,
MY GOD REIGNS
AND
JESUS CHRIST IS LORD
Please show us where it says in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that one should not have incest due to the mental scars that would result? That is the logic you cited so back it up with today's claim of where you learned it?
Mike D

Smyrna, SC

#128575 Apr 18, 2014
Libertarian wrote:
<quoted text>
Examples of posters:(All you have to do is look for yourself, but since you won't I did it for you):
https://www.youthchg.com/images/posters/poste...
Well that poster is like nothing you described. I guess you could not find evidence of what you actually claimed.
Are you disputing any of the stats the poster claims?
Mike D

Smyrna, SC

#128576 Apr 18, 2014
ChristWarrior wrote:
<quoted text> There is no need to worry about me carrying out Old Testament based commands, Mike. I strictly abide by the New Testament Covenant. Thank you for your concern though. I could have worded my past post a lot better, I can agree with you on that. I do not believe that God wanted 9/11 hijackers to do what they did, but they had the choice in accordance with their God-given free will to do right or wrong. I believe it is possible that God hates what America has become due to its constant thumbing of the nose at the Lord, and perhaps God allowed 9/11 to happen as punishment for our nations' sins. It is basically the same concept as when a parent sees their child misbehaving, resulting in the parent delivering corporal punishment to their child. The good parent does this NOT out of joy, but out of love. The parent would rather NOT have to punish their child, but the parent knows that if they do not discipline their child, they will repeat the same mistake over and over again. I agree, that when I think about 9/11 emotionally, it does seem like overkill to me, but knowing that I am merely human reminds me that God has a purpose, and that everything will be made new in the End. As for the Old Testament, the actions taken by God were for a different time that had, what I believe to be, truly wicked people living then, which is why I believe that different times call for different measures. That is what helps me sleep at night concerning the Old Testament. I appreciate you not insulting me, and I do respect you regardless of the fact that we differ on certain things. My criticism of atheists is not out of hate or a feeling of superiority, but out of love. I would love to see all of us on this forum make it to Heaven, including you. God Bless.
So you think god allowed 9/11 to happen to teach us a lesson? That is the exact same logic the hijackers used.
Seems no matter how you word it, you are in some agreement with the terrorists.
A parent does not punish other kids for his own kids bad behavior. So a god punishing all the peoe affected on 9/11 is unjust. And many if the bible stories show the same twisted logic you made. It is unjust.
Now do you really think any Americans embraced god for the reasons you gave for god allowing 9/11 to happen?
9/11 lead to my atheism. It showed me how faith is not a good virtue. And you have yet to show me otherwise.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128577 Apr 18, 2014
Libertarian wrote:
No. You are the one who is clinging to a position against all reason.
Then try presenting some evidence for once.
Libertarian wrote:
Yes. Public education as an institution is corrupt. And getting more corrupt. Just look at the corruption cases recently in Atlanta. First it was teachers and administrators changing kids test answer sheets to make the school score higher so that they, the teachers and administrators, could get paid more money.
Yes, that's corruption. That's not inherent to the system of public education. I can point to a factory that illegally dumps chemicals, that doesn't mean that factories are inherently terrible polluters. I can point to a mom who murders her kids, that doesn't make mothers inherently bad parents.
Libertarian wrote:
And programs for the "gifted"? Bullshit.
Bullshit? I was in them in elementary, middle school, and high school. Have you not heard of AP level high school classes?

My son is in elementary school now and is an advanced math group that stays late on Mondays to do extra higher-level work. He's also applying for a special robotics program for students with high math and science grades.
Libertarian wrote:
I could read comic books and children's books before I stated first grade, but I got stuck in the slow learner group just because my parents did not have high school diplomas. That was the school policy. That still happens today.
Give me a source showing that public schools put kids in learning groups based on their parents' educational history. My son's school doesn't know if I'm a high school dropout or have a PhD. They don't ask.
Libertarian wrote:
So don't give me your Socialistic "equal opportunity" shit. It is a damn lie. All of it.
Yeah, okay, buddy. Everyone is lying. All these programs are made up.

You were probably just a shitty reader and when they stuck you in the slow kids' group, your parents lied to make you feel better. "No, Libert, you're super duper smart. They just hate us because they're evil gubmint people!"
Libertarian wrote:
Public schools don't exist to give everybody an equal chance to compete.
They don't? Don't they allow even the poorest people to get a solid education?[in theory - some public schools unfortunately stink]
Libertarian wrote:
They exist to perpetuate the status quo. The whole system is designed so that nobody can rise from below no matter how great their potential is.
This is some straight Orwellian "up is down" garbage.
Mike D

Smyrna, SC

#128578 Apr 18, 2014
ChristWarrior wrote:
<quoted text> There is no need to worry about me carrying out Old Testament based commands, Mike. I strictly abide by the New Testament Covenant. Thank you for your concern though. I could have worded my past post a lot better, I can agree with you on that. I do not believe that God wanted 9/11 hijackers to do what they did, but they had the choice in accordance with their God-given free will to do right or wrong. I believe it is possible that God hates what America has become due to its constant thumbing of the nose at the Lord, and perhaps God allowed 9/11 to happen as punishment for our nations' sins. It is basically the same concept as when a parent sees their child misbehaving, resulting in the parent delivering corporal punishment to their child. The good parent does this NOT out of joy, but out of love. The parent would rather NOT have to punish their child, but the parent knows that if they do not discipline their child, they will repeat the same mistake over and over again. I agree, that when I think about 9/11 emotionally, it does seem like overkill to me, but knowing that I am merely human reminds me that God has a purpose, and that everything will be made new in the End. As for the Old Testament, the actions taken by God were for a different time that had, what I believe to be, truly wicked people living then, which is why I believe that different times call for different measures. That is what helps me sleep at night concerning the Old Testament. I appreciate you not insulting me, and I do respect you regardless of the fact that we differ on certain things. My criticism of atheists is not out of hate or a feeling of superiority, but out of love. I would love to see all of us on this forum make it to Heaven, including you. God Bless.
The debate we have been talking about is the extreme punishment the bible demands. I see no logic when you claim those were more wicked times. If the crime is adultery then it is the same adultery today. Time has zero bearing on this.
I do see some things back then being wicked and it is the extreme punishments the bible demanded.
Mike D

Smyrna, SC

#128579 Apr 18, 2014
Known Fact wrote:
"Khatru",
You are invited to hear:
There will be a special talk given at your local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses titled "Why does a God of love permit wickedness?" You are invited to attend and hear the answer to that question. The meeting is open to the public it is free and no collection will be taken.
Ask any one of Jehovah's Witnesses for the time and place.
It is not clear to me if you feel 9/11 was wicked. According to your posts, you seem to feel America deserved punishment and you seem to feel it might be a punishment god allowed.
What I keep noting is how it is all faith based. You reason due to faith on 9/11 and so did the terrorists. You have yet to show they did not act on faith. It was faith in a holy book.
Mike D

Smyrna, SC

#128580 Apr 18, 2014
ChristWarrior wrote:
<quoted text> It is not for us to figure out. His level of consciousness is on a far higher plane than either of ours, so it is natural we would not understand. Also, God does not enjoy killing people in the Bible. He warned mankind what the consequences of betraying Him would be in the Old Testament. Also, I do not believe that God caused 9/11. He allowed it to happen. Perhaps He did so for the strife and misery that America has brought upon the Arabic world as well as the pain inflicted on militarily weaker nations than us. Perhaps it was for our plummet into sinfulness and our betrayal of Him that set Him off. I personally do not worry about these things too much since I know that God will make things right in the End.
I thing god does not work out anything in the end. I think 9/11 was just a mass murder based upon religious faith. I think the people it killed are dead. I do not think they have an afterlife. I think they left behind children with no parent now. I think many are now without a brother or sister.
I think many learned lessons from 9/11. One of those lessons is that billions of people have faith that is false.
I learned that faith of these sorts are a poor way to think.
Mike D

Smyrna, SC

#128581 Apr 18, 2014
ChristWarrior wrote:
Khatru, you may have wondered why God allows evil to exist in this world. It is the same reason that you can't have an up without a down! The same reason you can't have a left without a right! The same reason you can't have a front without a back! The same reason you can't have a day without a night! The same reason you can't have a life without a death! The same reason you can't have good without evil! Evil is just part of the Universal Truth like all of the examples just given. If evil did not exist, the ability to do true good would not exist either.
It is no great mystery why their is evil. None of which shows me that killing someone for adultery is not evil.
Drowning every human on the planet would be evil.
Killing someone for worshiping a golden calf is evil.
Libertarian

Paducah, KY

#128582 Apr 18, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Then try presenting some evidence for once.
<quoted text>
Yes, that's corruption. That's not inherent to the system of public education. I can point to a factory that illegally dumps chemicals, that doesn't mean that factories are inherently terrible polluters. I can point to a mom who murders her kids, that doesn't make mothers inherently bad parents.
<quoted text>
Bullshit? I was in them in elementary, middle school, and high school. Have you not heard of AP level high school classes?
My son is in elementary school now and is an advanced math group that stays late on Mondays to do extra higher-level work. He's also applying for a special robotics program for students with high math and science grades.
<quoted text>
Give me a source showing that public schools put kids in learning groups based on their parents' educational history. My son's school doesn't know if I'm a high school dropout or have a PhD. They don't ask.
<quoted text>
Yeah, okay, buddy. Everyone is lying. All these programs are made up.
You were probably just a shitty reader and when they stuck you in the slow kids' group, your parents lied to make you feel better. "No, Libert, you're super duper smart. They just hate us because they're evil gubmint people!"
<quoted text>
They don't? Don't they allow even the poorest people to get a solid education?[in theory - some public schools unfortunately stink]
<quoted text>
This is some straight Orwellian "up is down" garbage.
Say or believe whatever you want to you damn lying Socialist.

For your info, despite that shitty school policies I graduated near the top of my high school class. But did I get a chance to go to college? No. All I ever got back from them when I applied for admission was rejection letters. People that ranked far far below me, they got in and got free rides. Why? Because their parents would lick the local school officials asses when mine would not.

And if those public school teachers are making 6 figure salaries, then I'm more convinced than ever that right minded people, the people who are taxed to death to pay for it, should organize and put an end to the system.

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