Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 Full story: The Courier-Journal 131,406

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#128016 Apr 9, 2014
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>The difficult part for me is ignoring the contradictions, lack of any evidence, and a story that does not have sound logic.
Ghosts do not teach.
What contradictions?
In the OT it was called "necromancy" and the god Yahweh's lawful penalty for soliciting and receiving information from the dead was public execution by stoning - or as 70 might call it nowadays, "divine inspiration" and "murder."
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#128017 Apr 9, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Another "missing link"? Here come the Creationist terms. No, I don't personally know of fossils for seed evolution.
What exactly is your objection? Do you not believe fruits/seeds can vary in size and shape? Do you not believe that those fruits/seeds with better attributes for survival will reproduce more than those with inferior attributes for survival? Do you not believe organisms pass on their genes?
<quoted text>
If seeds drop right next to a large parent tree, then they are competing for resources: space, nutrients, and sunlight. And the seed is going to have a hard time beating the established plant. It's beneficial to be further away to avoid these conflicts as well as to spread its presence.
<quoted text>
That doesn't make any sense. An intelligent designer would simply place the trees where desired. No mechanism for spreading would be necessary at all.
<quoted text>
It's harder to believe in a process that is easily explained and known to occur than a mysterious process that relies on magical entities not known to exist?
Sorry, but that's ridiculous.
I'm a little lite when it comes to science myself, I really have enjoyed reading your comments. Keep up the great debates. I hope these debates will be read by others centuries from now.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128018 Apr 9, 2014
curious wrote:
The seeds developed a solution that was able to eliminate this problem.
This may be hard to believe , but, seeds are more intelligent than one may believe.
Mutation plus natural selection.
curious wrote:
Studies have shown that seeds have a higher IQ than unbelievers..........LOL
Nothing more amusing than someone being cocky about their own ignorance.

When I throw a ball, it goes down to the ground. How does the ball KNOW to go back to the ground? Is it smart? Scientists tell us about this fancy INVISIBLE "gravity" nonsense. We all know that Jesus sends angels to bring the balls back down to the ground so we don't lose them.

[QUOTE who="curiousUnfortunately , those who refuse to believe in God
have to resort to science fiction (evolution) in order to explain their surroundings , regardless of how ridiculous their explanations are.
[/QUOTE]

There's nothing ridiculous about the solution unless your science comprehension level is at a kindergarten level.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#128019 Apr 9, 2014
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
Do we have fossil evidence to back that up or is that another "missing link"? Show me the evidence please.
I don't think the distance a seed travels would have much effect on it survival. It makes more sense that an intelligent designer saw the need for trees to advance across the planet.
To me it is harder to believe your idea than to believe intelligent design was responsible but I can see how some egos need to feel supreme.
At least explain to me how having the Maple/Dandelion seed travel farther would make it's survival any better than if the seeds were dropped straight down to the soil. Can you do that?
Lehi, Witchetty is correct ,LOL When the seeds dropped close to the parent plant , they started dying like flies. So they got together and e mailed the seeds still in the tree and advised them that they had to develop the ability to fly further away from the parent plant in order to survive.
The seeds developed a solution that was able to eliminate this problem.
This may be hard to believe , but, seeds are more intelligent than one may believe.
Studies have shown that seeds have a higher IQ than unbelievers..........LOL
BTW I am in complete agreement with you,Unfortunately , those who refuse to believe in God
have to resort to science fiction (evolution) in order to explain their surroundings , regardless of how ridiculous their explanations are.
EVOLUTION IS NOT THE SOLUTION
Sarcasm is not the solution, it is your only defense.
The Bible is not the solution, it is just your comfort.
Evolution is not the solution, it is the mechanism.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#128020 Apr 9, 2014
spaceship wrote:
<quoted text>
Good post. Atheist/agnostics are very good at debating with religious moderates and extremists.
Don't you mean "attempting to reason with" instead of "debating with"?
If someone wants to debate whether Fords are better than Chevys, there are rational and valid points on both sides, There can be religious discussion, but there simply is no such thing as a reasonable "religious debate." It's an oxymoron.

“Hats Off to God”

Since: Jun 09

3rd Rock

#128021 Apr 9, 2014
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
Do we have fossil evidence to back that up or is that another "missing link"? Show me the evidence please.
I don't think the distance a seed travels would have much effect on it survival. It makes more sense that an intelligent designer saw the need for trees to advance across the planet.
To me it is harder to believe your idea than to believe intelligent design was responsible but I can see how some egos need to feel supreme.
At least explain to me how having the Maple/Dandelion seed travel farther would make it's survival any better than if the seeds were dropped straight down to the soil. Can you do that?
Lehi, Witchetty is correct ,LOL When the seeds dropped close to the parent plant , they started dying like flies. So they got together and e mailed the seeds still in the tree and advised them that they had to develop the ability to fly further away from the parent plant in order to survive.
The seeds developed a solution that was able to eliminate this problem.
This may be hard to believe , but, seeds are more intelligent than one may believe.
Studies have shown that seeds have a higher IQ than unbelievers..........LOL
BTW I am in complete agreement with you,Unfortunately , those who refuse to believe in God
have to resort to science fiction (evolution) in order to explain their surroundings , regardless of how ridiculous their explanations are.
EVOLUTION IS NOT THE SOLUTION
They don't even realize that they make a very argument for intelligent design. They give us an elementary school explanation of how seeds need to travel farther but they won't discuss how the plant knew to do this. Since they have no proof such as they demand for the existence of God, they resort to demeaning our level of education. This alone shows extreme weakness in their argument.

Maybe they believe that the earliest plants made seeds of all configurations hoping that one particular design will do the trick. You're right, they assign more intelligence to the plant than they themselves have.

I like the e-mail part,lol.

“Hats Off to God”

Since: Jun 09

3rd Rock

#128022 Apr 9, 2014
The_Box wrote:
When I throw a ball, it goes down to the ground. How does the ball KNOW to go back to the ground? Is it smart? Scientists tell us about this fancy INVISIBLE "gravity" nonsense. We all know that Jesus sends angels to bring the balls back down to the ground so we don't lose them.
Are you trying to say that when the first seeds fell they bounced back up having not found a suitable spot to germinate and then were reconfigured to travel farther on the next attempt? Or are you saying that when the seeds fell, the plant looked down and said "that didn't work very well" and decided to make the next batch differently?

Do plants have a R&D department (that's research and development in case you don't know)? Yes, it's sarcasm.

If you people would explain your argument using proper comparisons, and a little more common sense, it would be much better.

Now go ahead and make fun of my lack of education, not much else you can do.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128023 Apr 9, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
They give us an elementary school explanation of how seeds need to travel farther but they won't discuss how the plant knew to do this.
The plant doesn't have to know anything. The plant makes fruit (seeds). Due to mutations, there will be variations among the fruit. The variations with attributes that improve survival will live on. The others will die.
Lehi wrote:
Since they have no proof such as they demand for the existence of God
Demonstrably false. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming.
Lehi wrote:
they resort to demeaning our level of education.
Your entire argument is BASED on being ignorant. If you said cars must run on magic because you don't know how a combustion engine works, we'd have the same response. If you said rain must come from the sky gods because you don't know about the water cycle, we'd have the same response.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#128024 Apr 9, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
They don't even realize that they make a very argument for intelligent design. They give us an elementary school explanation of how seeds need to travel farther but they won't discuss how the plant knew to do this. Since they have no proof such as they demand for the existence of God, they resort to demeaning our level of education. This alone shows extreme weakness in their argument.
Maybe they believe that the earliest plants made seeds of all configurations hoping that one particular design will do the trick. You're right, they assign more intelligence to the plant than they themselves have.
I like the e-mail part,lol.
Demonstrating your level of education isn't helping you.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#128025 Apr 9, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
I no longer need faith that God exists but I still need faith that He will have a place prepared for me and that I can live forever. Those things haven't been proven to me yet, so right now, faith is all I have on that.
I had faith growing up and at a point in my life where I needed help, I began to put it all to the test. I have seen the results in my life and so has the people around me.
God has shown you the evidence in everything around you but you probably play it off as an accident.
<quoted text>
Having faith in something evil doesn't mean faith was the culprit. Come on now you can't believe that can you? We all make our choices in life and can believe in anything we want to but it doens't necessarily make it right.
You keep telling me faith without evidence is so important, well I showed how it can lead to evil yet the faithful felt it was good. And the faithful felt it was good because of blind faith in a holy book. The religious seem to have a problem discerning what is right or wrong if their holy book says something on it.
The hijackers did not question the holy books moral reasoning, just as most Christians do not question their holy books moral reasoning. This is all due to faith. So I am showing how faith is not a virtue. You have yet to show why it is a virtue demanded by your god. Example, why would it be bad to have evidence of the afterlife you speak of? You would still be left with the hope of earning it. So I see nothing lost. In fact, if evidence were shown, more would strive to earn this heaven. But the block seems to be the lack of evidence.
Seeing evidence of rewards is good.
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#128026 Apr 9, 2014
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you mean "attempting to reason with" instead of "debating with"?
If someone wants to debate whether Fords are better than Chevys, there are rational and valid points on both sides, There can be religious discussion, but there simply is no such thing as a reasonable "religious debate." It's an oxymoron.
That's a nice way of putting and don't disagree. That is often how it is labeled example "Bill Nye and Ken Ham" as example, and does require a referee, our only referee would be the administrator, and I do see your point.

“Hats Off to God”

Since: Jun 09

3rd Rock

#128027 Apr 9, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
The plant doesn't have to know anything. The plant makes fruit (seeds). Due to mutations, there will be variations among the fruit. The variations with attributes that improve survival will live on. The others will die.
<quoted text>
Demonstrably false. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming.
<quoted text>
Your entire argument is BASED on being ignorant. If you said cars must run on magic because you don't know how a combustion engine works, we'd have the same response. If you said rain must come from the sky gods because you don't know about the water cycle, we'd have the same response.
At what point did the plant realize that a particular mutation worked and stopped changing it's seed design? Even if plant mutation is a continuing thing then why haven't I seen any Maple seeds that don't have the little airplane wing attached? According to your explanation, by now Maple seeds should look like a stealth bomber dropping multiple seeds across the land.

I agree that evidence for evolution exists but I believe the intelligent designer set it all in motion and used it to his advantage.

So are you saying that understanding the complexities of plant design and propagation is as simple as understanding the combustible engine?

When you get through comparing apples to oranges let me know.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#128028 Apr 9, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Where do you live? I am not surrounded by the same examples that you experience. I cannot relate.
Can you clarify your question? Are you asking about the differences between Christians and Jews? Or are you asking about the LDS church and the priesthood authority and Jews?
So the main question I have been asking, you have no idea what I am talking about?
You made some claim that the OT has rules for Jews because they could not live by the priesthood. So the question is, what is so hard about the priesthood that Jews could not live by?
I have asked this question in a variety of ways, yet for some reason, you just do not see it.
I think all humans have basically the same potential. Your statement implies the Jews did not have the potential of later peoples. So this implies they are lesser humans. This is why I said your stance is anti Semitic. It is the sort of idealism that lead to the holocaust.
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#128029 Apr 9, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>

Now go ahead and make fun of my lack of education, not much else you can do.
What do you think about BYU Biology Professor Steven Peck endorsing evolution as fact?
Do you he was just stating his opinions like Joesph Smith and BY? Maybe because his study of evidence convince him that it is a fact? Do you think he has harmed your church by doing so?

“Hats Off to God”

Since: Jun 09

3rd Rock

#128030 Apr 9, 2014
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>You keep telling me faith without evidence is so important, well I showed how it can lead to evil yet the faithful felt it was good. And the faithful felt it was good because of blind faith in a holy book. The religious seem to have a problem discerning what is right or wrong if their holy book says something on it.
The hijackers did not question the holy books moral reasoning, just as most Christians do not question their holy books moral reasoning. This is all due to faith. So I am showing how faith is not a virtue. You have yet to show why it is a virtue demanded by your god. Example, why would it be bad to have evidence of the afterlife you speak of? You would still be left with the hope of earning it. So I see nothing lost. In fact, if evidence were shown, more would strive to earn this heaven. But the block seems to be the lack of evidence.
Seeing evidence of rewards is good.
I believe that all humans have a conscience that lets them know what is right and what is wrong. I agree that some people can be indoctrinated by those around them who have influence over them but anyone should know that it is wrong to take another's life.

You can make a blanket statement all day that faith is the culprit but I think you know better than that. You just don't have much ammunition for your argument.

The evidence I have of the "after life" doesn't and cannot come from something I can see or hold in my hand. It comes from something not of this world. I don't expect you to understand that but if you are ever in a place in your life where you feel there is no hope, put it to the test as I did. All you have to do is sincerely,(with maximum emphasis on "sincerely"), call out to God, I know He will answer you in your hour of need. Then and only then will you know because there is nothing, nor should there be, that I could say to prove it to you.

I know God exists and I am so thankful that I don't have to convince anyone else of that fact in order for me to know it.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128031 Apr 9, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
At what point did the plant realize that a particular mutation worked and stopped changing it's seed design?
It doesn't. An efficient seed design will be successful and continue on.
Lehi wrote:
Even if plant mutation is a continuing thing then why haven't I seen any Maple seeds that don't have the little airplane wing attached?
The maple already has a successful seed. Why would you expect to see something significantly different? Surely not ever maple seed casing you've seen has been exactly identical.
Lehi wrote:
According to your explanation, by now Maple seeds should look like a stealth bomber dropping multiple seeds across the land.
Uh, how?
Lehi wrote:
So are you saying that understanding the complexities of plant design and propagation is as simple as understanding the combustible engine?
Understanding basic natural selection is as easy as understanding combustion engines. It's taught to elementary school children.
Lehi wrote:
When you get through comparing apples to oranges let me know.
I'm not comparing apples to oranges. I'm pointing out that your argument is one from ignorance.
curious

Ocoee, FL

#128032 Apr 9, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Mutation plus natural selection.
<quoted text>
Nothing more amusing than someone being cocky about their own ignorance.
When I throw a ball, it goes down to the ground. How does the ball KNOW to go back to the ground? Is it smart? Scientists tell us about this fancy INVISIBLE "gravity" nonsense. We all know that Jesus sends angels to bring the balls back down to the ground so we don't lose them.
<quoted text>
There's nothing ridiculous about the solution unless your science comprehension level is at a kindergarten level.
Then we are getting back to origins, that is where you are stuck with an ' We don't know"
as your foundation ,which you build on with science fiction,,,,
Mutation plus natural selection does not explain the origins of seeds nor how their genes were able to attain the abilities that you say they have.
Your analogy of using a ball ,dead matter , to try to validate your invalid point, clearly show signs of desperation.The best that can be said for that analogy is that you never bring it up again
Let us not forget that if you plant a ball in the ground , other than having dug a hole and covered the ball up , nothing much happens....I'm wrong , the material that the ball is made from will eventualyy decompose. Most assuredly , when a ball sees somebody coming with a baseball bat, it is not instructed by it's GENES to fly away before it gets whacked...LOL

“Hats Off to God”

Since: Jun 09

3rd Rock

#128033 Apr 9, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
It doesn't. An efficient seed design will be successful and continue on.
<quoted text>
The maple already has a successful seed. Why would you expect to see something significantly different? Surely not ever maple seed casing you've seen has been exactly identical.
<quoted text>
Uh, how?
<quoted text>
Understanding basic natural selection is as easy as understanding combustion engines. It's taught to elementary school children.
<quoted text>
I'm not comparing apples to oranges. I'm pointing out that your argument is one from ignorance.
Since you failed to answer any of my questions with any substance, your ignorance is as great as mine.

Actually your argument is that the Maple seed evolves through mutation, my question is, do those mutations continue today and if so, why don't we see new designs and if not, then how did the tree know when to stop because success in design was achieved?

Hope that's a little simpler for you.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#128034 Apr 9, 2014
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Then we are getting back to origins, that is where you are stuck with an ' We don't know"
as your foundation ,which you build on with science fiction
We're not talking about origins. Why are you trying to change the subject? Because your knowledge of evolution is so embarrassingly poor?
curious wrote:
Mutation plus natural selection does not explain the origins of seeds nor how their genes were able to attain the abilities that you say they have.
Yes, it does. Quite easily.
curious wrote:
Your analogy of using a ball ,dead matter , to try to validate your invalid point, clearly show signs of desperation.
I forgot that you are incapable of understanding analogies. I apologize for the headache it must have given you.
curious wrote:
Let us not forget that if you plant a ball in the ground , other than having dug a hole and covered the ball up , nothing much happens....I'm wrong , the material that the ball is made from will eventualyy decompose. Most assuredly , when a ball sees somebody coming with a baseball bat, it is not instructed by it's GENES to fly away before it gets L
Balls are not living organisms that reproduce with modification. Trees are.
curious

Ocoee, FL

#128035 Apr 9, 2014
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
Sarcasm is not the solution, it is your only defense.
The Bible is not the solution, it is just your comfort.
Evolution is not the solution, it is the mechanism.
When ignorance, the absurd and science fiction are clearly on display, a sarcastic wit needs to draw attention to the problem.
God is my comfort and foundation, the bible simply gives me instructions on how to reach him.
Evolution is a mechanism that can Not explain why there is something instead of nothing.
can not explain the origins or what caused creation ,,OR seeds
Evolution DOES NOT KNOW... And it is on that nonsensical foundation that you heap science fiction on,hoping to make it credible , all because you have no other choice on the matter.
It is absurd,illogical and incomprehensible for one to claim not to know , while on the other hand claiming to know it was not GOD.

BTW Glad to see you backed off on ignoring me,as did witchetty...

If you are ever in England,drop by the Nottingham city asylum and visit Krak tu ,
OHHHHHHHHHH , I forgot , he had his locations mixed up.
He be living in Kentucky all along.....As you know, Pre K is a twit LOL

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