Bible study rules for public schools ...

Bible study rules for public schools proposed

There are 143198 comments on the The Courier-Journal story from Feb 10, 2010, titled Bible study rules for public schools proposed. In it, The Courier-Journal reports that:

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Courier-Journal.

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#127723 Apr 6, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
This doesn't contradict. This just means that there will be no more new laws after Christ.
Yes. No more new laws would seem to,indicate that the existing laws will still apply.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#127724 Apr 6, 2014
Amber wrote:
A man or woman justified by faith, who then is led by the Spirit is not under the law but is in obedience to Christ (not law or under man or woman or just anyones interpretation of the law).
If a man or woman has not turned away from sin, then he or she is under the law not justified by faith in need of redemption.
Romans
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I have been with Christ the Lord in the Spirit, just as all those who are saved and chosen in the 7 churches in the book of Revelation in the Bible. I know Christ the Lord as the Lamb of God as I have seen him this way as a Lamb, I have seen him as the Bright Morning Star and heard him say "I Am".
I have heard him from on high, and I have heard him while suffering affliction by mans hand. I have heard God while just walking along the way, and have seen God while suffering affliction by mans hand. I have seen God as the Father of lights too and heard his voice along with my neighbors saying, "I AM.
I do not worship under men but through the Holy Spirit where my Spirit is free in Jesus to go to the Father. Because Jesus sacrificed himself for all our sins on the cross, we who believe are set free from the law through faith.
John "I myself am the way and the truth and the life. No one approaches the Father except through me."
John "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth".
John "If you dwell within the revelation I have brought, you are indeed my disciples; you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
John "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live".
John Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Amber wrote:
A man or woman justified by faith, who then is led by the Spirit is not under the law but is in obedience to Christ (not law or under man or woman or just anyones interpretation of the law).
If a man or woman has not turned away from sin, then he or she is under the law not justified by faith in need of redemption.
Did you define sin earlier. I may have missed it.

I would like to be obedient because that's what I do.

That's not true at all, is it?

It's a good thing that I don't know what sin is.
Amber

Lexington, KY

#127725 Apr 6, 2014
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Did you define sin earlier. I may have missed it.
I would like to be obedient because that's what I do.
That's not true at all, is it?
It's a good thing that I don't know what sin is.
Being obedient to Christ not to man and Christ came to save sinners, all have sinned.

The Bible describes sin as the breaking, or transgression, of God's law (1 John 3:4). It is also defined as disobedience or rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7), as well as independence from God. The original translation means "to miss the mark" of God's holy standard of righteousness.

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#127726 Apr 6, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
God was not the author of this confusion. Satan is. God gave us the things necessary for salvation. But there must be opposition in all things. Satan wants us all to be as miserable as he is. God gave us free will. Men make mistakes. Satan capitalizes on all our weaknesses.
Jesus saying he'd return "soon" has certainly caused confusion. That statement could have been put across a lot clearer and more effectively than it was.

As for free will - what do we mean by this?

Perhaps I'll find a definition in the major works on Christianity.

Here's a link to the Catechism Of The Catholic Church:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX....

Its 803 pages long and free will doesn't even appear in the index. Clearly free will doesn't figure highly for the vast majority of the world's Christians.

Have you heard of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia?

No? Well, here it is..

http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/

There are four volumes to it covering a total of just under 4,500 pages. All-in-all, a pretty comprehensive work. There must be a reference to free will in there, eh?

Well...you'll see references for wimples, Moab, power of keys, eunuch, gopher wood, cubit, prayer, etc. You won't find any reference to free will.

What's this all about, eh? Two major and comprehensive works and no mention whatsoever of free will.

Perhaps it's because there's nothing in the Bible that says God gave us free will. That's right, in the whole Bible the subject of God-given free will is conspicuous by its absence.

Contrast that with the fact that there are scriptures that speak against quite clearly against free will:

We all know about the incidents where God intervened by hardening people's hearts (Pharaoh & King of Heshbon).

Romans 9:18 tells us how "God chooses to make some people refuse to listen".

Romans 11:32 - "God consigns all men to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them".

Isaiah 63:17 - "Why, Lord, dost thou cause us to stray from thy ways?".

Ephesians 1:11 - Tells us how we were chosen in advance by God and that everything works out in accordance with his plan.

There are other scriptures but it gets tedious hearing pretty much the same thing over and over again. It seems to me that despite what Christians say, according to the Bible, the much-vaunted concept free will doesn't really have a place in God's world.

There are five to six different occasions where God sells the Israelites into slavery (usually for 40 years).

Jeremiah 15:14 tells us that if God so chooses, he will once again sell people into slavery.

So it's do what God wants (worship him) and be rewarded or disobey him and be sold into slavery. So much for choice and free will, huh?

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#127727 Apr 6, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
We use the KJV Bible. We also have another record of people on a different continent that also testifies that Jesus is the Christ. It is a history of this people as well as a record of Christ's visit to them after His resurrection.
It is what we consider to be the stick of Joseph (of Egypt).
The stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph will become one:Ezek. 37:15–19;
The stick of Judah is the Bible. We believe the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon. The scriptures say these two will become one in the hand of the Messiah
Then we have the Muslims whose holy book was dictated to the prophet Mohammed by none other than the angel Gabriel.

Not forgetting the numerous other holy books that men claim were inspired or written by the creator(s) of our universe. Their *truths* are no better/worse than yours.

Since: Apr 08

Nottingham, UK

#127729 Apr 6, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course. We are told in the NT that faith without works is dead. We are judged by our works as well as the thoughts in our minds and the deepest desires of our hearts. It's the whole package we are expected to devote to Him.
Fair enough

In the unlikely event that we are going to be judged by some kind of cosmic mega-being, then any god worthy of the title would approve of people who did good deeds, regardless of what they believe (or not).

I don't believe in the hell that so many followers of the Abrahamic religions hold dear to their hearts, but if it exists, it's there for hypocrites who think their deathbed confessions wipe away all their worldly sins, just because they make the right noises every Friday (Islam), Saturday (Judaism) or Sunday (Christianity).

I somehow doubt that, if there is a God, he's going to judge the billion atheists and agnostics on this planet as uniformly evil, because morality is not defined by a single religion. There is an extremely commonly held falsehood among many Christians that all non-believers are amoral or even immoral, which is nonsense. I consider myself a fairly morally upstanding person, an agnostic/secular humanist in fact, but I simply choose not to punctuate my life with silly rituals and belief in a bloke in a toga in the clouds. No god, rational and all-seeing, would judge me for being evil just because I didn't want to go to church on Sunday.

If there is a god, which I sincerely doubt, then it's our actions and not our lip-service that it will judge us on.
d pantz

United States

#127730 Apr 6, 2014
I don't know how its done in KY but in OH we used to just let a group of kids have bible study after or before school. They would pray around the flag pole ( why to the flag IDK but whatever) and meet and try to get other kids to join them. It really didn't bother but a few people until some one tried to hang signs in the hallway for "Satan's bake sale". See, the bible kids never asked permission to post signs advertising bible study, so technically, they broke the same rule. None of them got suspended but the "Satan's bake sale" kids got suspended. Either tolerate it all or have none of it. Maybe just cover it for like 5 minutes in social studies class as part of cultures.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#127731 Apr 6, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
I certainly wish they had cameras or iPhones back then, but eyewitness accounts are about the best you get back then.
The funny thing is, those same people who doubt the witnesses that claim that they fear retaliation by God Himself if they do not testify of these things, are the same ones that believe eyewitnesses of anything negative against leaders of the church.
Not true for good skeptics. We evaluate the evidence vs. the claim. For example, the claim that church leaders with vested interests and human faults may be wrong is not a huge stretch. It is perfectly reasonable as long as we get some good supporting evidence. But the claim that an angel from heaven lead a man to golden tablets which he translated with magic rocks...

That's a BIG claim. You're gonna need a metric ton of evidence. And you do not have it.

That's how evidence works. It's not a simple matter of "He said he saw a unicorn and his buddy agreed."

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#127732 Apr 6, 2014
Khatru wrote:
<quoted text>
Not once have I claimed to be an Atheist.
Atheists will say they know that no god exists - the opposite of your position where you claim that you know that a god does exist.
Two extreme positions. Everything in between is agnostic.
Yet still you lie and state that I claim to be an atheist.
One of my earliest posts on this thread from October last year can be found here
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/campbellsvill...
<quoted text>
That's not an accurate portrayal of atheism. Atheism is this and ONLY this:

I do not accept the claim that a god or gods exist.

And that's all.

We are all agnostic simply because we don't have that kind of knowledge. But if you do not actively believe in god you are in fact an atheist. The technical term would be agnostic atheism (I don't know but I don't believe).

It seems like the only reason people resist the word "atheist" is that it has built up a lot of cultural baggage.

Now it is true that *some* atheists make a positive argument: I believe god does not exist. That's a very different position than what atheism actually entails. And it may actually be the cast that most atheists feel this way. But when we use the term in debates we are making a single claim that we do not accept the god hypothesis.

Friggin' philosophy. Gotta love it!

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#127733 Apr 6, 2014
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Y. Long time
Unfortunately it does seem that many choose to live by some of the easy to follow laws and slack off on others. Keep the Sabbath holy for example. I always had a problem going out to eat after church. We were causing someone else to have to work. Didn't seem right.
I do understand that many laws from the OT were fulfilled and no longer in effect. This is the higher law I have been speaking of. Stoning for example, Jesus proved His point with asking the one among them that had no sin to cast the first stone. He taught us forgiveness instead. Glad I live in the times that I can choose to follow His teachings and only answer for myself when I fall short.
I don't think there is an enumerated list of which of the hundreds of ancient laws are no longer in effect. Any church that makes claims about which laws they are not obligated to follow are necessarily playing in theology and there's no objective yardstick by which to measure the veracity of their claims.

And that is what I mean when I say that Christians do not really live by the Bible. You gave an excellent example with the Sabbath. As far as I can tell the proscription against working on the Sabbath is still in effect. But completely shutting down for a day each week is problematic to society. And it conflicts with our personal desires, such as going out to eat after Church.

Christians live their lives based on what works socially not what the Bible says. Only when a Biblical doctrine aligns nicely with some social convention that they like will they make claims that it comes from the Bible.

You see the same thing happen with regards to law and morality. Christians will point to the Ten Commandments when we talk about murder being illegal. But this moral and legal position did not come from the Bible. If it did then humans would probably not have made it long enough for people to write it down. Bans on murder are clearly carried over from pre-written history, not the desert Jews of a few thousand years ago.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#127734 Apr 6, 2014
Khatru wrote:
<quoted text>
Seems to me that a prophet like this could make 100 guesses at something and get 99 of them wrong. This would enable believers to credit that one, single correct guess as a revelation from their god.
Bingo bango! Nicely stated. We might call this the Sylvia Browne Effect. Works for hucksters all over the planet.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#127735 Apr 6, 2014
d pantz wrote:
I don't know how its done in KY but in OH we used to just let a group of kids have bible study after or before school. They would pray around the flag pole ( why to the flag IDK but whatever) and meet and try to get other kids to join them. It really didn't bother but a few people until some one tried to hang signs in the hallway for "Satan's bake sale". See, the bible kids never asked permission to post signs advertising bible study, so technically, they broke the same rule. None of them got suspended but the "Satan's bake sale" kids got suspended. Either tolerate it all or have none of it. Maybe just cover it for like 5 minutes in social studies class as part of cultures.
Wow, that sucks. Kinda reminds me of the current Satan statue fiasco.

Yeah, I think comparative religion is perfectly suitable to public school in something like a social studies type class. But if you did it right then parents would lose their sh*t over it. Because comparative religious study doesn't tend to produce obedient religious devotees. This is why all fields of study devoted to human psychology and cultural studies have the highest degree of atheism among experts. The more you know about how people actually tick the harder it is to believe in magic.
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#127736 Apr 6, 2014
Known Fract wrote:
Better still what was either of them doing in either military sense Jesus very clearly said, "Those who live by the sword will die by the sword".
Or do you just pick and choose what you want to believe what Jesus said?
I'm not a Mormon, how do you know Jesus said that, were you their to witness it. How many JW's are police officers, if so, do they live by the sword and get a paycheck for doing so?
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#127737 Apr 6, 2014
Known Fract wrote:
Or do you believe the Catholic's famous saying," we kill them all and let God sort them out."
Who are you replying to, Known Fract?

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#127738 Apr 6, 2014
SevenTee wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not wish any disrespect to your Faith.
The Bible clearly states that anything outside of the Bible is false doctrine there is no other Gospel.
Galatians 1:8
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Jesus Christ was the FINAL prophet anyone who comes after Christ claiming truth is a false prophet. This is not my opinion it is Biblical scripture.
Again, I mean no disrespect to Mormons.
Your logic is dazzling. Saul wrote half of the books you worship (including Galatians) and he came after Jesus. The Gospels wouldn't even be edited and compiled for another 300 years to MAKE your Bible.
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#127739 Apr 6, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>

BY was just a man speaking his thoughts, but it certainly isn't and wasn't the doctrine of the Mormon faith.

If you want to do harm to the Mormon Church why not find something they are doing wrong today? That way we won't have to rely on "he said, she said" stuff from 180 years ago that no one can accurately verify since no one is alive that was there.
If we forget history we are bound to repeat it.

Joseph Smith taught Garden of Eden is in Missouri? Joseph Smith teach anything else that may have been his own thoughts and not in the book of Mormon that I need to know about?

Do Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?
We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is. While not an important or foundational doctrine, Joseph Smith established a settlement in Daviess County, Missouri, and taught that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in that area.
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#127740 Apr 6, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
We do believe Adam is the father of mankind, which makes sense, and we also believe he had a role in the creation of the world, that Adam is Michael.

If you want to do harm to the Mormon Church why not find something they are doing wrong today? That way we won't have to rely on "he said, she said" stuff from 180 years ago that no one can accurately verify since no one is alive that was there.
You forgot out Eve, is she just chopped liver? Is Eve our heavenly mother?

“Hats Off to God”

Since: Jun 09

3rd Rock

#127745 Apr 6, 2014
spaceship wrote:
<quoted text>
If we forget history we are bound to repeat it.
Joseph Smith taught Garden of Eden is in Missouri? Joseph Smith teach anything else that may have been his own thoughts and not in the book of Mormon that I need to know about?
Do Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?
We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is. While not an important or foundational doctrine, Joseph Smith established a settlement in Daviess County, Missouri, and taught that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in that area.
The Garden of Eden existed during the antedeluvian period of earth's history so anyone's guess is as good as the other. Arer you familiar with the term, pangea?
spaceship wrote:
<quoted text>
You forgot out Eve, is she just chopped liver? Is Eve our heavenly mother?
You will have to ask God that when you see Him. You won't find anything from the Journal of Discourses that the church will claim as official for many obvious reasons.
Bible study

Wilmington, DE

#127746 Apr 6, 2014
Zechariah 7:11

11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

Jeremiah 5:23

23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.

Jeremiah 7:24

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
spaceship

Roseville, CA

#127747 Apr 6, 2014
Lehi wrote:
<quoted text>
The Garden of Eden existed during the antedeluvian period of earth's history so anyone's guess is as good as the other. Arer you familiar with the term, pangea?
<quoted text>
You will have to ask God that when you see Him. You won't find anything from the Journal of Discourses that the church will claim as official for many obvious reasons.
Then the prophet Joseph Smith told a lie, why did he make it up? He succeeded in building a religion much like the prophet of Seventh Day Adventist church. Of course other christian religions change their beliefs to fit into a modern society when proven not scientifically correct or found to be too silly to make a claim.

Du whut I think said awhile ago that Mormons now accept the teaching of evolution in schools. Do you see any conflict with the book of Mormon and the bible with the teaching of evolution in schools?

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