Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 Full story: The Courier-Journal 132,260

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12


#111802 Aug 27, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have a point? If so, I missed it other than to weakly insult.
All reliable evidence points toward religious texts as being complete fabrications and what you "know" is wistful delusion. If you find that insulting, think of how your neurons feel about being forced to fire in such perturbed and cockamamie directions. Did you need me to be more or less concise on that in future posts?
stuck in a lodi

Pikeville, KY

#111803 Aug 27, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Really. I moved in to my house. Got a newspaper because the last home owner subscribed, read it, and told my wife, and then threw it away while saying wow!
That was the extent of my research on this.
Well I could say that I read somewhere that the society of LDS men experience erectile disfunction more that other men of different faith.
stuck in a lodi

Pikeville, KY

#111804 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>And this is a great example of what you "think" you "know". All evidence shows you were not shot in the head TWICE and yet you insist you know otherwise.
Your stories are textbook delusions and false perceptions. We should send you down to the universities for live examples of how the mind can play tricks upon a person.
Next you will be telling is a god spoke to you.
He's already said that ... Remember, He said god told him Obama was the Anti-Christ.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#111805 Aug 27, 2013
Yes and Amen wrote:
<quoted text>Oh no...
My kids usually LEARN by the second time, thus...
I don't have to call them anything!
You on the other hand...
I think you are obtuse on purpose!
Having your background in several religions,
Knowing that many people knows that there is a creator, and
your denial of such, and equating Christians with Muslims...
Tard is about the only word I can use!
Many people "believe" in this supposed creator, just as many people once believed in Zeus, but clearly the majority did not make it true then, so why would it now?
Muslims believe in a creator on an equal manner as Christians.
You are simply calling someone a tard because they do not agree with you. It has nothing to do with learning.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111806 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>That is a great question, I only wish it had an easy answer, but I will try.
The outsiders test is something that must be taken with every religious belief you have. With every religious philosophy you follow. And certainly with every idea that has no physical evidence.
There are several ways to take the test. One is to imagine yourself as a believer of an opposing religion, or opposing philosophical view. In other words, be critical to your own views. Scrutinize them with the same standards you use to oppose other beliefs.

This is why I oppose any "faith". The faith itself seems to be something that demands a person forgo doubting. If you forgo ability to doubt in an absolute manner, their is no way to critically scrutinize your own beliefs.

This is why I like science. Science embraces and demands constant scrutiny of all claims. It is a never ending process that never rests upon it laurels. Seems to me religion does nothing but rest upon its laurels.

I have specifically pointed out many instances where you refused to take the outsiders test. So the examples should have been noted there, but I will give an example now.
I could ask how you refuse to believe Mohammed was a prophet, for example. Do you use the same standards to scrutinize Mohammed and the claims of the Koran as you do the bible and Jesus?
Keep in mind, if you change the standards, you are throwing a giant monkey wrench in the thought experiment.
This is why I keep honing in on the double standards of the bible.

Feel free to ask for elaborations if I have been unclear.

Keep in mind, the outsiders test takes practice. It takes deep thought sometimes. The deeper the thought the more complete the experiment. The test is never really complete, if you follow the rules of science.

I find posting on topix helps me take my own outsiders test. And believe it or not, I do find I am wrong about some things and I change my views accordingly.
I backed away from almost everything I believed at one time and investigated tons of different religions as open minded as I knew how. I sought truth for years. I'm not opposed to challenging my own beliefs and have done so several times. And I don't always find every answer that I seek. Of course my current religion has origins that are newer than most so it is easy to find concerns. Some have quick answers, some have unsettling answers, and some have no straightforward answer. But faith is not science. I don't expect there to be a test with data filled conclusions for everything. The Holy Ghost does exist and one of His main purposes is to bring us peace when we need it. Another purpose is to confirm God's gospel truths. Once I decided to study the doctrine of the LDS church, I did not find what I expected to find. Having my mind made up that it was a cult, I had no intentions of this investigation taking long at all. Instead I found answers that made sense that filled in the gaps that I thought existed in the Biblical interpretations of other denominations. I found that the Spirit was strong when I pressed to learn more. To make a long story short, I still did not want to join the church because of what I had always heard, and because my family thoroughly disapproved.
I do feel like I took what you call an outsiders test. Including researching Islam. So I answer based on what I have learned and experienced. I am firm in my faith, as you should expect by now, so maybe my answers appear that I am closed off to other suggestions. But that is not the case. So though I can't always answer everything that challenges my religion, or sometimes things look bad in the church's history, that doesn't change that the doctrine I believe in has proven itself much closer to what I think God intended, than anything else I have studied.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111807 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, and I can agree the GD word serves no purpose here that is useful in the debate, and thus is pointless to be added. Many of the insulting things you have claimed of me are different though. They are not pointless words. They are really just opposing views. Opposing views often seem harsh. I at least attempt to make a effort to make a point with all my words. Many times I delete the last sentence of a post. If I proofread the post, I find that last sentence gets a bit unnecessary and often is overboard offensive.
I often do not proofread my posts, so I am not claiming some of my sentences are not unnecessarily offensive.
I am sure we could all use some more control and practice deleting the last sentence that is over the top.

Feel free at anytime to question the point of making an offensive statement.
I'm pretty good at picking out insults from a point. Maybe you can elaborate on a point you made that I considered offensive

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111808 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>On the subject of respect, yes it should not be excluded here, but as I pointed out earlier, the nature of debate can get offensive. I see a difference in someone getting offended and respect. Some people get to easily offended. Even if I am trying to respectfully disagree, some people are going to be offended. So in a forum debate such as this, if they cannot handle disagreement, they need not be here or just learn to deal with being offended.

My philosophy in life sees no reality of a person living in an "offense free zone". I feel some people need to be offended. I think some offenses can be productive. An "offense free zone" can be to conducive for brainwashing.

I am sure when I state that your god is a murderer, it is offensive. But I feel it is productive for you to understand what the claims of your god in the bible are, is just cold blooded murder. It is offensive for me to hear of people worshiping such a murderer.

Take the outsiders test and check your god for morals.
Questioning scripture and doctrine seem normal to me if not necessary. Taking it to labels I think becomes personal and is meant for either shock value, or to kindle emotions.

I have attempted to put this example in a different perspective for you, but either you don't understand my answer, or just don't think it is sufficient.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111809 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>What I do not do is kill my child with the idea his life is eternal. That would be immoral for any being to do, period.

I guess we just have different standards of morality. I think murder is bad, and you see it as good in this case.
Is this act an eye for an eye, or turning the other cheek? The standards seem to come in three's here. As in the case of the flood, the babies were murdering no one. I suppose that old god had not yet realized he should ease up and just go by the eye for an eye rule. Oh well, he is only human. Live and learn.
Fully agree, because you aren't God and should not determine if a person should die or not. Now if you decided to build billions of little robots and had them become self-aware and a couple hundred of them liked the idea of the terminator movies and decided to arm themselves and wipe you out, or destroy all your plans for them, I would understand you pulling their power source.

Again, the OT laws were instituted after the people became so wicked that they could not live the higher laws so the lesser, more carnal laws were given, and punishments instituted. God also decided to let them have kings and judges because they could not live the higher laws. He had Moses allow divorce as well because they couldn't live marriage properly.

The NT brought back the higher laws and Jesus taught us to leave the judging of sin to God. So that's why we no longer practice eye for an eye.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111810 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Using the reasoning of an eternal scale, any murder can be justified. Just as in the case with 9/11.
I certainly see your point, but in the case of the flood, God made the judgment. In 9/11, Bin Laden judged.

A friend of mine made a point to me one time that made me think. Since we believe that Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT, he said that he could see how Jesus matured from the OT to the NT. He was a jealous God in the OT, and forgiving in the NT. He has a point too.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111811 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Demanding worship is far different that hoping for respect.
If you kill everyone on the planet, I have zero respect for you. I will condemn you.
If I believe the god of the bible is real, then I would really think he murdered many millions of innocent persons in the flood.
I do not see creating a human as a rational for destroying, torturing, or killing said human.
Sounds like an arrogant parent that tells his child, "I brought you into the world, I can take you out". We put people who act out this in prison for being immoral and a danger to a peaceful society.

A good teacher uses the example of him, or herself to convey the message. The flood story teaches one to murder.

I am glad you do not believe I am condemned for the simple act of disbelief. I really think the bible differs from your opinion as do most Christians.

I am really sad you think murdering millions of innocent children was moral.
I never said it was moral, I said I can understand God's anger.

And I can kinda picture the Far Side comic I saw one time when you say you condemn Him.
It was a picture of God in front of a control panel with a screen that showed a guy walking under a piano being lifted. His finger was about to push a big butting that said "Smite".
I kinda picture Him having to take 10 breaths when some one says what you did. Then going: No, I'm calm. I'm not going to do it.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#111812 Aug 27, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
If we were protected from every bad thing that could ever happen, what would we be like? I would think we would take everything good for granted and just expect it all the time. I think you have to know the bad to appreciate the good.
I think the analogy works very well. I think it closely parallels.
Depends on your definition of god. Christianity defines god as being perfect. There's a lot of logical contradictions in a perfect god that creates imperfect beings, allows them to suffer, and hides his grace behind a veil of mystery. It makes no sense.

And appealing to that "mystery" as if we can't comprehend it is just a way of justifying ANYTHING you want to say about god. It is an evasion of logic. Yet even the most hardcore Christian Fundamentalist still must acknowledge that logic dominates any debate or else you aren't having a debate.

God cannot break the rules of logic, no matter how "perfect".

Anyway, my point is why create flawed creatures that suffer and then sit back out of reach, out of sight, and watch? If that is god, then god is a real bastard isn't he?

Even if you take faith as the answer. Most people do not have faith in your god. Your god is very, very specific. It is a Mormon god. I would argue that is it not the same god worshiped by Baptists or Catholics at all since your theology diverges so radically from the norm.

Yet if you follow your own logic the Mormon god is the real one. And everyone else is mislead.

But on what grounds can you possibly base that assumption except on pure, unrefined, blind faith?

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#111813 Aug 27, 2013
SistaNoneYaBiz wrote:
<quoted text>
And this is how much huMAN kind has advanced (or rather NOT) sometimes.
Lets comapre and contrast your phrase(s) of-
Hell, it is not even fair to criticize Bible authors for being ignorant. They couldn't help it. They were working with the best they had. And they produced an epic set of stories, sometimes dreadful to read and sometimes quite lovely. When understood in context, that is.
And let the SAME thing be said, even though worded somewhat differently, by a Sistuh-and we might have a bunch saying --oh hell no, oh no, that's just utter hubris.
YUP...which proves every time, how even derwood fell short, flawed and merely human, of having "all the answers".
You may be a very nice person and very sincere. But I don't understand half of what you post.

Who is "derwood"?

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#111814 Aug 27, 2013
LOL in a suit wrote:
There is no god.
That is probably true.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111815 Aug 27, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>BTW, poor example here of the cop. If I have been pulled over, then I am likely to be guilty of something. So you are changing the paradigm unfairly.
In the cases here, some theists are being over the top offensive to us, so again, the cop analogy is off.
But I have already acknowledged much language that is offensive is not the way one should go.
So I changed it later. You walk into a restaurant and see a cop having dinner. Go use some profanity in front of him. Tell us what happens.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#111816 Aug 27, 2013
sarah b wrote:
<quoted text>I'm not the smartest person but logically, I feel atheist are the minority but right. We don't know but really if a GOD is so cruel and the people that believe are going to heaven, not trying to be rude but... You curious, so whatever, and the rest are the last people I want to spend eternity with. I know that sounds bad but the things I think are so wrong Christians seem to not care about. You know like everyone in the world, starving children, or the fact that so many people in our own country are hurting. I mean really?, it's the pour single mothers fault our country is messed up but let employees strike against mcds. Then screw them those jobs belong to our kids. Honestly your Jesus would have been a liberal and that fact you don't give a crap about taking care of his land or the starving children in it makes you an ax hole.
I'm not sure where this is coming from or even if I understood all that you said, but it sounds like you are assuming I don't help others around me?

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#111817 Aug 27, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Please support your claim

1887 Edmunds-Tucker Act

"The act disincorporated both the LDS Church and the Perpetual Emigration Fund on the grounds that they fostered polygamy. The act prohibited the practice of polygamy and punished it with a fine of from $500 to $800 and imprisonment of up to five years. It dissolved the corporation of the church and directed the confiscation by the federal government of all church properties valued over a limit of $50,000. The act was enforced by the U.S. Marshal and a host of deputies."

In 1890, 3 years later, the Mormon Church leader amazing had a revelation that they should stop practicing polygamy.

Of course they didn't. But by gosh in 1904 they did.

Now don't get me wrong here. I don't really care if you practice polygamy or not and I don't think the government had much business banning it or seizing church property, personally.

But it is funny how the LDS buckled when sh*t got real in the wallet.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#111818 Aug 27, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
This is rationalization.
With this mentality is along the lines of the different meanings of the words I hate you.
Think about the difference between you saying to your child with a sober tone "I hate you", and a teenage girl in her best valley girl voice "you have pink nail polish too? I hate you" giggle giggle.
Are you saying that when I say "god dammit" I am hurting you like I might hurt a child by saying "I hate you"?

Surely you have heard the phrase a few times. And since I am an atheist it really is a meaningless thing for me to say anyway.

I assure you it is harmless.

Since: Aug 13

Location hidden

#111819 Aug 27, 2013
As an atheist, and a previously homeschooling parent, I personally taught my son about world religions - but from an academic POV. We looked at the anthropological and sociological impacts of faith and religion (which are in fact different animals), as well as the psychological. When my son was at a Catholic HS, his RE teacher was astounded an atheist child had a good grasp of the Bible, and also the Torah and the Qur'an. He was able to debate various points of view when the Bible was discussed in class, and the teacher was impressed that he knew more than many of his Catholic classmates who had been brought up in the Church. To him, it was simply an academic subject - it certainly didn't take belief in God for him to get good grades in this class.

IMO, however, Religious Education as a subject should be totally left out of public schools. Let the families and churches of the students teach their children faith in their own time, not the taxpayers'.

As for religious schools - my son has been bullied in them for being atheist - to the extent that he had to leave two schools due to it apparently being okay to torment and bully a child for not believing in God. And teachers did this, not just children. So anyone who thinks that having religious education in schools makes them better is deluded.
stuck in a lodi

Pikeville, KY

#111820 Aug 27, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
So I changed it later. You walk into a restaurant and see a cop having dinner. Go use some profanity in front of him. Tell us what happens.
I watched this on t.v. quite some time ago that showed a police officer issueing a ticket to a speeder. When the officer handed the ticket to the driver he began cursing and screaming like a nut, ripped up the ticket in front of the officer and threw in on the ground, all the while still cursing. The police officer, at no point, ever raised his voice and calmly told the driver he would also issue him a ticket for litering if he did not pick up every torn piece of paper he just threw on the ground, which of course the driver did. The officer never advised the driver to refrain from cursing at any time. After the driver picked all the torn pieces up, the Cop told him he was free to go and have a nice day! The irate driver drove off.

My point is... this guy was using profanity in almost every word and yet the cop did nothing...So what do you think would happen?
The liberal use of profanity is not breaking any laws that I'm aware of
stuck in a lodi

Pikeville, KY

#111821 Aug 27, 2013

I found it.... here it is... Funny as hell!

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