Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 Full story: The Courier-Journal 134,337

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

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#107657 Jun 29, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
So should those that wish to practice incest be allowed those rights?
I don't know. It's a good question. I think we need to maximize liberties while minimizing harm. I'm not sure where incest fits into that picture. I haven't given it a lot of thought.

But surely that has nothing to do with the gay issue. Please don't do the whole "next they'll be having sex with sheep" bit. It's old and boring.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#107658 Jun 29, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
At one time "the world is flat" was a mainstream idea
That was before science and evidence demonstrated otherwise.

Also, it is not really true that most people thought the world was flat. I mean, I guess you average bumpkin assumed something like that. I don't know. But as early as 600 BCE the Greeks were hypothesizing that the earth was a sphere. If this was 600 BCE and there were public schools then it might be the mainstream view that the earth is probably flat. If that's the case then that's what would be taught.

Science is self-correcting. It does not need to be 100% accurate all the time. It changes. The best you can possibly do as a layperson is go with the current best consensus on a subject and give it your *conditional* trust.

More study, more time, and more criticism create more or less certainty.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107659 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
<quoted text>
I fully understand that all Atheists will attempt to destroy the credibility of the report published by The American Journal of Psychiatry.
According to it's findings,not believing in God is very detrimental to your mental health.
The solution to the problem appears to be to seek God.
Obviously that is a subject Atheists do not want to discuss.
To clear the air,I will post the entire report
So believing in the boogie man is good mental health?
I have yet to see this supposed report, did you post a link?
Does it have logical reasoning behind the claim? If so, just what is the logic here?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107660 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
Suicide rates are lower in religious countries than in secular ones (1, 2). Some of this difference may be due to underreporting in religious countries because of concerns over stigma (3). Yet, some of the difference may be real, although it is not known whether the negative association between religion and suicide is due to its integrative benefits (such as social cohesion, as proposed by Durkheim in 1951 [4]) or to the moral imperatives of religious belief, given its prohibitions against suicidal behavior (1, 5–7). Most previous studies have been epidemiologic and have investigated the association between completed suicide and religion. An inverse relationship between religious commitment and suicidal ideation has also been reported (5, 8–10). However, reports regarding religious affiliation and suicide attempt are sparse. Morphew (11) compared 50 suicide attempters hospitalized after self-poisoning with respect to their religious beliefs and practices. He found no significant differences in terms of Catholic versus Protestant affiliation. Similarly, Malone et al.(12) reported that religious persuasion, defined as Catholic and non-Catholic, did not differ between suicide attempters and nonattempters. Kok (13) compared suicide attempt rates in Chinese, Malay, and Indian women in Singapore and concluded that the comparatively low rate of attempted suicide in Malay women was due to their religion, since Islam strictly forbids suicide.
Studies of religious commitment in general suggest a protective effect as well. In a sample of institutionalized chronically ill elderly, Nelson (14) showed that intensity of religious commitment was negatively associated with suicide gestures. In a cross-national study of 25 countries, Stack (1) concluded that protective effects were not due to any specific religious denomination per se but rather to a strong religious commitment to basic life-preserving values, beliefs, and practices that reduce rates of suicide.
Therefore, we examined factors associated with religious affiliation and nonaffiliation in depressed inpatients, generally considered to be at highest risk for a suicide attempt. We hypothesized that the religious subjects would report more moral objections to suicide as measured with the Reasons for Living Inventory (15). This instrument includes questions that reflect traditional religious beliefs: "I believe only God has the right to end a life," "My religious beliefs forbid it," "I am afraid of going to Hell," and "I consider it morally wrong." We examined the relationship between religious affiliation and social cohesion by examining the amount of time spent with relatives in religiously affiliated versus unaffiliated patients. To our knowledge, this is the first study investigating the relationship between religious affiliation status and suicide attempts in a clinical sample.
Method
I get that the religious might feel suicide is morally wrong and atheists might not, but that does not equate to good mental health overall. It only speaks to one subject of a worldview.
I believe suicide affects those close to us that are left to feel guilty for the reasons of suicide. This makes it immoral in my book.
I feel these logical reasons for morality are not looked at or taught often due to all the focus being upon the superstitious ideas.
My best friends father killed himself and he was very religious. I see the effects it left upon his children and wife. I have no doubt it affected many people adversely. It was a selfish act.

You see, their are logical reasons for morality other than those of some vague superstition about how a god feels about it. I say vague because the bible does not directly mention suicide.

Atheism is growing and is not yet the norm. The atheist society needs to focus on the godless way to good morality. Learn philosophy and develop good worldviews.

Their is no magic bullet. We see both atheists and the devout commit suicide.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107661 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
Suicide rates are lower in religious countries than in secular ones (1, 2). Some of this difference may be due to underreporting in religious countries because of concerns over stigma (3). Yet, some of the difference may be real, although it is not known whether the negative association between religion and suicide is due to its integrative benefits (such as social cohesion, as proposed by Durkheim in 1951 [4]) or to the moral imperatives of religious belief, given its prohibitions against suicidal behavior (1, 5–7). Most previous studies have been epidemiologic and have investigated the association between completed suicide and religion. An inverse relationship between religious commitment and suicidal ideation has also been reported (5, 8–10). However, reports regarding religious affiliation and suicide attempt are sparse. Morphew (11) compared 50 suicide attempters hospitalized after self-poisoning with respect to their religious beliefs and practices. He found no significant differences in terms of Catholic versus Protestant affiliation. Similarly, Malone et al.(12) reported that religious persuasion, defined as Catholic and non-Catholic, did not differ between suicide attempters and nonattempters. Kok (13) compared suicide attempt rates in Chinese, Malay, and Indian women in Singapore and concluded that the comparatively low rate of attempted suicide in Malay women was due to their religion, since Islam strictly forbids suicide.
Studies of religious commitment in general suggest a protective effect as well. In a sample of institutionalized chronically ill elderly, Nelson (14) showed that intensity of religious commitment was negatively associated with suicide gestures. In a cross-national study of 25 countries, Stack (1) concluded that protective effects were not due to any specific religious denomination per se but rather to a strong religious commitment to basic life-preserving values, beliefs, and practices that reduce rates of suicide.
Therefore, we examined factors associated with religious affiliation and nonaffiliation in depressed inpatients, generally considered to be at highest risk for a suicide attempt. We hypothesized that the religious subjects would report more moral objections to suicide as measured with the Reasons for Living Inventory (15). This instrument includes questions that reflect traditional religious beliefs: "I believe only God has the right to end a life," "My religious beliefs forbid it," "I am afraid of going to Hell," and "I consider it morally wrong." We examined the relationship between religious affiliation and social cohesion by examining the amount of time spent with relatives in religiously affiliated versus unaffiliated patients. To our knowledge, this is the first study investigating the relationship between religious affiliation status and suicide attempts in a clinical sample.
Method
According to your post, you should accept Islam as the one true religion, because it directly prohibits suicide.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107662 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
Studies of religious commitment in general suggest a protective effect as well. In a sample of institutionalized chronically ill elderly, Nelson (14) showed that intensity of religious commitment was negatively associated with suicide gestures. In a cross-national study of 25 countries, Stack (1) concluded that protective effects were not due to any specific religious denomination per se but rather to a strong religious commitment to basic life-preserving values, beliefs, and practices that reduce rates of suicide.
The elderly, chronically ill atheists might just be in the realization that their time has come.
Trying to prolong what nature does by modern medical means at some point becomes a senseless act. Many of these people are in severe pain. Pushing them to live in the pain is an immoral act in my opinion. At this point, religion might be impeding upon allowing nature to take its course.

Take the study for what it finds, but the conclusions might not be so black and white. Learn to use science properly.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107663 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
Suicide rates are lower in religious countries than in secular ones (1, 2). Some of this difference may be due to underreporting in religious countries because of concerns over stigma (3). Yet, some of the difference may be real, although it is not known whether the negative association between religion and suicide is due to its integrative benefits (such as social cohesion, as proposed by Durkheim in 1951 [4]) or to the moral imperatives of religious belief, given its prohibitions against suicidal behavior (1, 5–7). Most previous studies have been epidemiologic and have investigated the association between completed suicide and religion. An inverse relationship between religious commitment and suicidal ideation has also been reported (5, 8–10). However, reports regarding religious affiliation and suicide attempt are sparse. Morphew (11) compared 50 suicide attempters hospitalized after self-poisoning with respect to their religious beliefs and practices. He found no significant differences in terms of Catholic versus Protestant affiliation. Similarly, Malone et al.(12) reported that religious persuasion, defined as Catholic and non-Catholic, did not differ between suicide attempters and nonattempters. Kok (13) compared suicide attempt rates in Chinese, Malay, and Indian women in Singapore and concluded that the comparatively low rate of attempted suicide in Malay women was due to their religion, since Islam strictly forbids suicide.
Studies of religious commitment in general suggest a protective effect as well. In a sample of institutionalized chronically ill elderly, Nelson (14) showed that intensity of religious commitment was negatively associated with suicide gestures. In a cross-national study of 25 countries, Stack (1) concluded that protective effects were not due to any specific religious denomination per se but rather to a strong religious commitment to basic life-preserving values, beliefs, and practices that reduce rates of suicide.
Therefore, we examined factors associated with religious affiliation and nonaffiliation in depressed inpatients, generally considered to be at highest risk for a suicide attempt. We hypothesized that the religious subjects would report more moral objections to suicide as measured with the Reasons for Living Inventory (15). This instrument includes questions that reflect traditional religious beliefs: "I believe only God has the right to end a life," "My religious beliefs forbid it," "I am afraid of going to Hell," and "I consider it morally wrong." We examined the relationship between religious affiliation and social cohesion by examining the amount of time spent with relatives in religiously affiliated versus unaffiliated patients. To our knowledge, this is the first study investigating the relationship between religious affiliation status and suicide attempts in a clinical sample.
Method
Just noted this study does not mention atheists at all.
Again, according to your logic, Islam is the best for mental health.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107664 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
Religious commitment promotes social ties and reduces alienation (33). We found weaker family ties in religiously unaffiliated subjects, and family members are reported to be more likely to provide reliable emotional support, nurturance, and reassurance of worth (37). Our finding is consistent with reports about less dense social networks among atheists (38), although whether distancing from one’s family facilitates disaffiliation from the family’s religion or vice versa is not known.
T
I see that four pages into the study, it finally speaks directly of atheists. The religiously non affiliated does not mean atheist, as this should demonstrate. The religiously non affiliated just means the person is not active in a religious community.
As this shows, the community ties is key for support systems. Not that atheists cannot have these, but in our very religious society, atheists are often outcast solely due to their beliefs, thus less total numbers of humans in their society in which to have a relating social tie.

I think as atheism grows, their will be more groups formed for the ideologies that bring atheists together in good healthy support groups.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107665 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
<quoted text>
If there is a God,but there are those who do not believe there is then what Bacon says is very relevant and accurate.
Those who deny God may well be suffering from Cotard's syndrome
The Cotard delusion or Cotard's syndrome, also known as nihilistic or negation delusion, is a rare neuropsychiatric disorder in which a person holds a delusional belief that he or she is dead,and that God does not exist
Read more: http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php...
In this lecture, Cotard described a patient with the pseudonym of Mademoiselle X, who denied the existence of God, the Devil, several parts of her body and denied she needed to eat.
And it may be that you should concern yourself with the detrimental
effect on your mental health caused by your foolish bellief that there is no God.
That problem is self inflicted.
Don't blame Christianity or God....
So you cite some rare disorder to point to why atheism is foolish, or do you call us foolish for some other reason?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107666 Jun 29, 2013
ProvenScience wrote:
<quoted text>
Only if anyone insists on being mired in and harping at stone age mentality level...kind of like not acknowledging the FACT that eating shellfish during a yellow or red tide might not be such a good idea, and wearing wool in 90 degree weather is not too bright either.
All these social whining non issues-wastes of time-not gonna change a thing on HOW or WHAT people think, or how anything operates now anyway.
Just MORE wastes of tax payer dollars that SHOULD spent on things like REAL immigration reform, welfare reform, jobs in a floundering economy, building and maintaining crumbling infrastructures and affordable (not FWEE) healthcare for everyone-NOT just some.
Hail the WHINIEST adminsitration ever-wahwahwah, where duh fwee everthing lines...wahwahwah.
Biggest Buncha backwards, whiney, duhmazz, commie-leaning slackerTics ever. Wahwahwah....
You claim it is a non issue, but if a government did not allow you to marry the adult you loved, it would suddenly be the only issue that seems important.
It is clearly not important to you because it does not affect your life. This shows you are only concerned about yourself.

I see you just avoid the issue at hand and whine about other things to create a diversion.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107667 Jun 29, 2013
Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
Time tells the tale... As I said the slippery slope tilts a bit with each slip.... And it starts already...
Polygamists consider the SCOTUS ruling a trail blazing ruling for consideration of Marriage being between several consenting adults... And when that is found valid then comes net slip followed shortly by the Animal Rights groups to give animals standing in the marital status....
http://www.mrc.org/articles/polygamy-advocate...
The people like yourself said the same thing when black persons were allowed to marry white people.
The slippery slope fears is no reason to deny persons freedoms.
If you cannot find adequate reasons to deny homosexuals to marry, then move on and deal with it.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107668 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course ,the fact that this report was based on a Scientific Study conducted by the American Journal of Psychiatry is rendered meaningless by the simple fact that the report concludes that,because of their unbelief,Suicide and other mental problems are much more prevalent among those non affiliated than those affiliated with religion.
Now,how does an Atheist deal with that issue?
He/She is unable to accept the results and has to go into denial.
Any excuse will be used to attempt to negate the Scientific findings of this report.
These are the same individuals who claim that nothing created something from nothing,which eventually gave birth to the stars ,planets and life as we know it.
They can not explain how it happened......
It was an accident,who knows.
Most certainly could not have been created by a superior intelligence,but,noninteiligen ce is quite capable of creating such a miracle.
Start by showing evidence of a creator and then we will talk about what that creator might be capable of doing.
And claiming nothing created the creator makes no sense.
If no creator was needed to create the creator, then why does it take a creator to create the universe?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107669 Jun 29, 2013
Khubala wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course ,the fact that this report was based on a Scientific Study conducted by the American Journal of Psychiatry is rendered meaningless by the simple fact that the report concludes that,because of their unbelief,Suicide and other mental problems are much more prevalent among those non affiliated than those affiliated with religion.
Now,how does an Atheist deal with that issue?
He/She is unable to accept the results and has to go into denial.
Any excuse will be used to attempt to negate the Scientific findings of this report.
These are the same individuals who claim that nothing created something from nothing,which eventually gave birth to the stars ,planets and life as we know it.
They can not explain how it happened......
It was an accident,who knows.
Most certainly could not have been created by a superior intelligence,but,noninteiligen ce is quite capable of creating such a miracle.
Many atheists are affiliated with religious organizations. In fact the Unitarian church welcomes them and they often go religiously.
Again, you keep pointing to atheists when the study is not pointing to atheists in particular.
Again, the study shows Islam has Christianity beat in the suicide department. So when are you going to drop that foolish religion of yours and convert to Islam?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107670 Jun 29, 2013
Seek Saving Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. I will be praying for your soul.
May God show you his saving grace mixed with HIS saving faith soon.
How he Jesus died JUST for YOU. How he was buried just for YOU. How he arose just for YOU.
Why did he do this for you?
Are you that special to God.........YES......you are!!!
Pick up a bible and begin to examine your self to see where you stand with God today.
Seek salvation while you are able and still alive to call upon him for eternal salvation.
I will lay a bet god ignores this prayer.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107671 Jun 29, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Animals kill each other too, not just for food either. That doesn't mean we should copy that behavior either.
Animals kill for food or to protect food territory.
Looking at the history of the world, humans certainly do this.
Looking at the bible, humans certainly do this and often claim they did it with gods blessing.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#107672 Jun 29, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Start by showing evidence of a creator and then we will talk about what that creator might be capable of doing.
And claiming nothing created the creator makes no sense.
If no creator was needed to create the creator, then why does it take a creator to create the universe?
that was to one of the more allegedly sophisticated fundies, I'd guess. first cause uncaused sounds more educated than the Bible thumpers. but not much more rational. People do not seem to see that both the Bible God and any alleged creator god of our universe are both horrid creatures unworthy of respect or worship - and would be even if they existed. as it is, it is more the believers in them who are unworthy of any respect.

your quick summary was a sufficient answer to all the first cause type assertions. but for the philosophical and the scientific, the whole notions of time and causation are involved also, as well as the question of multiverses. as an agnostic I do not even have to put a toe into those deep waters - I am content not to know and to suspect we cannot know.

I just want to know about what we can do to prevent disasters of global warming and nuclear waste and nuclear bombs in the hands of terrorists and irresponsible heads of state or military leaders. And how to get idiot people in democracies to not elect irresponsible leaders, including members of Congress who head key committees. I am no fan of Menendez, even, or even of Levin, but they are better than the Republicans.

I see nothing we can do regarding the big bang, and do not even approve of wasting money on research that is too full of hubris and curiosity, and is not valuable for the preservation of the planet and life* on it, in relatively tolerable circumstances.*Including polar bears and inhabitants of rain forests, also honey bees and song birds, and pandas.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107673 Jun 29, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
So should those that wish to practice incest be allowed those rights?
Incest is not natural. Homosexual behavior is prevalent in nature, but incest is not. Incest is prevalent in the bible though. In fact, the claim of the bible shows all humans are the product of two relationships of incest, Adam and Eve, and Noah and his family.

Incest is known to result in deformations in offspring. This alone will keep it off the list of what our government will condone.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#107674 Jun 29, 2013
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Animals kill for food or to protect food territory.
Looking at the history of the world, humans certainly do this.
Looking at the bible, humans certainly do this and often claim they did it with gods blessing.
unfortunately some animals kill for other reasons - as in males fighting for the honor of bestowing their dna on too many females. I do not think one can entirely whitewash the animal kingdom - but man is the worst of them. Since I do not believe in conventional notions of free will, I think there are plenty of causes of human misconduct (including murder), including of course the notions of several religious groups - now and in the past. But racism and nationalism and sexism and dismissal of the ill and old as useless, and other evil notions, including political, economic*, and philosophical ideologies, also lead to killings either deliberate or through heartless negligence*(*especially in the case of economic).

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107675 Jun 29, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> that was to one of the more allegedly sophisticated fundies, I'd guess. first cause uncaused sounds more educated than the Bible thumpers. but not much more rational. People do not seem to see that both the Bible God and any alleged creator god of our universe are both horrid creatures unworthy of respect or worship - and would be even if they existed. as it is, it is more the believers in them who are unworthy of any respect.
your quick summary was a sufficient answer to all the first cause type assertions. but for the philosophical and the scientific, the whole notions of time and causation are involved also, as well as the question of multiverses. as an agnostic I do not even have to put a toe into those deep waters - I am content not to know and to suspect we cannot know.
I just want to know about what we can do to prevent disasters of global warming and nuclear waste and nuclear bombs in the hands of terrorists and irresponsible heads of state or military leaders. And how to get idiot people in democracies to not elect irresponsible leaders, including members of Congress who head key committees. I am no fan of Menendez, even, or even of Levin, but they are better than the Republicans.
I see nothing we can do regarding the big bang, and do not even approve of wasting money on research that is too full of hubris and curiosity, and is not valuable for the preservation of the planet and life* on it, in relatively tolerable circumstances.*Including polar bears and inhabitants of rain forests, also honey bees and song birds, and pandas.
I don't claim to know either, but the religious claim to know, yet have zero evidence.

Part of a full life is to enjoy life. If that includes putting some money and effort into understanding non critical studies in science, so be it.
The main thing slowing progress in the global warming issue is the right wingers who are in denial about many sciences. You know, the kind that deny homosexuality is natural.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#107676 Jun 29, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> unfortunately some animals kill for other reasons - as in males fighting for the honor of bestowing their dna on too many females. I do not think one can entirely whitewash the animal kingdom - but man is the worst of them. Since I do not believe in conventional notions of free will, I think there are plenty of causes of human misconduct (including murder), including of course the notions of several religious groups - now and in the past. But racism and nationalism and sexism and dismissal of the ill and old as useless, and other evil notions, including political, economic*, and philosophical ideologies, also lead to killings either deliberate or through heartless negligence*(*especially in the case of economic).
I agree, and I am also of the camp of non-conventional notions about free will.
I think racism and the sort, are offshoots of our instinctive behavior pattern, keeping outsiders from our territory.
Race can distinguish groups, but it does not determine if the group is hostile or friendly.

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