Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: The Courier-Journal

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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curious

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#102374
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YIAGO WROTE
But my point stands. What I did in that post, through comedy, was show you the thought process behind Biblical interpretation in the Ancient tradition. You want the Old Testament to predict Jesus? Find a passage in the OT that mentions something - ANYTHING - that even remotely sounds like it could work for Jesus and BAM! You got yourself a prediction.

Well,the following are not prophecies that "remotely sound like it would work for Jesus" they specifically point toward Jesus.And there are many others.
And no,your point does not stand,because the process you used was completely erroneous.

On several occassions,Jesus stood before his adversaries and told them that the Scriptures testified of him.
None dared challenge the validity of his claim

1)"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life.... for in them you hope that you have eternal life, and they testify concerning Me,
2)Deuteronomy 18:15-18 Moses Stated
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said,“Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The Lord said to me:“What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him

Jesus told the Pharisees
If You Believed Moses, You Would Believe Me, for He Wrote of Me
Luke 4:17-21 isaiah;61;1,2

3)17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[a]
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”[b]

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them,“Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

4)Psalm 22:16-18

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

This psalm describes crucifixion and was written about 1000 years before crucifixion was devised
curious

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5) Isaiah 53:1-12
There is no other person in human history,to which the following prophecy applies,other than Jesus
and no one,religious or political leader has ever dared make the claims he made and supported their claims based on that which is written in scriptures

53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors

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#102376
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_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>I write reasonably long answers. What you are asking for isn't anywhere near reasonable. And you are refusing to ask a more specific question. It feels and sounds like you're just trying to be totally dishonest and play "gotcha" again when I refuse to write 8000 pages of stuff that you wouldn't understand anyway. Is that what you are doing? If not, why won't you ask a reasonable question that can be answered in a paragraph.

And besides all that, you probably don't know what a quark or a gluon is, what strangeness is (in this context), what hadronization is, what flavors are, how strong/weak/EM forces work (maybe even how gravity works), and on and on. If you are deficient in understanding of ANY of those things, you just increased the amount of explanation required by 4-5x. This is not ever remotely reasonable, and I doubt I am familiar enough or a good enough teacher to actually give you any understanding of these sorts of things.

Basically, if you're trying to play "gotcha" and aren't actually interested, f*$k off. If you are actually interested, ask a question of reasonable scope or go read a book.
I do understand those terms (except strangeness - I haven't heard that one elated to this topic), so feel free to use them.
I'm just asking you to summarize simply what you think happened though. No need for doctorate level answers for this.

I am amazed at the response I am getting from all of you.

If you want to narrow the scope lets start at the beginning. What do you think happened just before "nothing", to the change, to a small time later. And what caused the changed?

This isn't "gotcha". I want to know what you all think since you think we are morons for believing God had a hand in it.
Why you all are dancing around answering this truly amazes me. Since you throw God out of the picture, I thought you all would have a good solid answer for this since you have claimed there was an infinite amount of evidence for it all.
Instead I have been railed for even asking the question, ridiculed for the way I asked the question, and now have been told to go "blank" off. Really?

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#102377
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Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>I am not a Bible scholar, no. But I enjoy the topic and I have studied it a bit.

I will try to reply to these individually later, if the mood strikes. But right off the bat I'm not impressed. I've seen these lists before and they are not compelling.

For example, the bit about "he will be born to a virgin"...doesn't the Hebrew word translated to "virgin" simply mean "young girl"? Not the same thing, necessarily.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the idea of a virgin birth was not initially part of the Jesus mythology. It was added a bit later. In fact, the first written Gospel was Mark and Mark says nothing of a virgin birth. Most likely the early Christians that wanted to solidify the Jewish lineage found the passage in Isaiah and argued that Jesus must have come from a virgin birth.

It is easy to retrofit this stuff. You are looking for signs and finding them because you want to find them. You ignore evidence to the contrary.

But this is the big schism between Ancient and Modern Bible interpretation. Your view of scripture is that it is perfect, harmonious, and always relevant. That is how you get things like prophecy to make sense to you. But Modern scholars apply actual scholarship to the Bible, looking for real evidence.
You can try to peel the onion back if you want to. I'm ready.

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#102378
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curious wrote:
5) Isaiah 53:1-12
There is no other person in human history,to which the following prophecy applies,other than Jesus
and no one,religious or political leader has ever dared make the claims he made and supported their claims based on that which is written in scriptures
Oh, but what about David Koresh?

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#102379
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_Ummm_ wrote:
Have you ever looked at a snowflake under a microscope? What do you think produces a complex partially or fully symmetrical unique 6 sided crystal? Randomness?
No I haven't.
All I know is that they are produced at higher temperatures in higher elevated clouds. And that the molecular structure is the beginning of that formation, so the shape mimics it.
curious

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May 4, 2013
 

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Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
Matthew is a New Testament book written AFTER JC. It isn't even the first of the Gospels, in terms of when they were written. You can't use that as evidence of prophecy. It would be like me winning the lottery then writing a book claiming that I knew I would win it beforehand. It proves nothing.
Also, the other passage says nothing about crucifixion. It is just a passage about affliction of some figure, traditionally thought represent Israel in general.
See, the Hebrews were writing and interpreting this stuff for a few thousand years before Christians came along. It is pretty god-damned arrogant to then claim that the Jews don't understand their own books.
It is pretty obvious why Christians NEED the OT to justify Jesus. Without it their religion is suddenly 2000 years old instead of 3000 or 4000. Back in the early 1st century CE this was a glaring danger and they knew they had to get the Jews on board, especially since Christ WAS a Jew.
But, as I demonstrated already, you can get Michael Jackson out of the Bible if you want to. It is all a matter of hunting for bits you can take out of context and making them fit what you want them to say.
Show me a verse that says "Jesus Christ is coming".
1)But, as I demonstrated already, you can get Michael Jackson out of the Bible if you want to. It is all a matter of hunting for bits you can take out of context and making them fit what you want them to say.
That is exactly why your comical anlysis becomes inoperative.
Michael Jackson never claimed that Scriptures foretold his coming,as Jesus did,,, for that matter,neither has anyone else.
Jesus specifically,quoted prophecies that pointed to his coming and neither the Pharisees,Scribes or lawyers,who supposedly understood the writings of the old testament ,dared to challenge the accuracy of what He stated....Why didn't they?
They never denied his power,which he stated came from the Father,but,unwilling to believe,rejected his claims and attributed his powers to the devil
That he would be rejected,was foretold in scriptures.
You are a great comedy writer,stick to it and you can become famous.
That is my opinion and is not based on Biblical prophecy

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Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>Matthew is a New Testament book written AFTER JC. It isn't even the first of the Gospels, in terms of when they were written. You can't use that as evidence of prophecy. It would be like me winning the lottery then writing a book claiming that I knew I would win it beforehand. It proves nothing.

Also, the other passage says nothing about crucifixion. It is just a passage about affliction of some figure, traditionally thought represent Israel in general.

See, the Hebrews were writing and interpreting this stuff for a few thousand years before Christians came along. It is pretty god-damned arrogant to then claim that the Jews don't understand their own books.

It is pretty obvious why Christians NEED the OT to justify Jesus. Without it their religion is suddenly 2000 years old instead of 3000 or 4000. Back in the early 1st century CE this was a glaring danger and they knew they had to get the Jews on board, especially since Christ WAS a Jew.

But, as I demonstrated already, you can get Michael Jackson out of the Bible if you want to. It is all a matter of hunting for bits you can take out of context and making them fit what you want them to say.

Show me a verse that says "Jesus Christ is coming".
Genealogy was provided by the Book of Matthew, I'm not even talking about the doctrinal topics in Matthew. Of course it was written after His birth because they were showing us how that prophecy was fulfilled. It's exactly what I would expect to happen, so it certainly can be used to show that prophecy was fulfilled.

No it doesn't say crucifixion because it wasn't invented yet. But they make it clear that it would be a brutal, torturous death. Kinda like the Book of Revelations. He was shown a vision of wars with equipment that was beyond his imagination. He did the best he could to describe it.

No it isn't arrogant. It is seeing that they took metaphorical things as literal, that they did not understand when some things were meant to address eternal topics and not just temporal, and that their traditions became more important than the spiritual meaning of the scriptures.

It isn't a matter of the NT needing the OT. The entire OT is a record of people's dealings with God and prophesies of things to come. The New Testament is the fulfillment of those prophesies, the completion of the most important part of God's plan, prophesy of what will come, and the consequences of our choices and actions on an eternal perspective. Oh and also the expectations that God has for the way we should live our lives and help others.

Not calling Jesus by name in the OT would have been great but we were given plenty of signs to identify Him. The reason He isn't mentioned by name is because only those that were truly in tune with the spiritual meaning of the scriptures would be able to understand the prophesies being fulfilled in front of their eyes. This is the meaning of what Jesus said to them: if you believed Moses then you would believe me because Moses spoke of me.

So really, do you think it would make any difference to your faith if the OT said Jesus Christ is coming? Or if it said Joseph Smith will restore the church?

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>So, in short, a snowflake is the result of natural processes, thus, it is not created. Why can't everything be the result of natural processes then?
So tell me how? Tell me how these natural processes were not put in place by God? How the atmosphere was formed in order to make this snowflake possible?

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#102383
May 4, 2013
 

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curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Those who believe in Evolution can lay claim to the title of Illiterate Monkeys and you are right,Those illiterate monkeys are trying to shove disgusting lies down our chidrens throat.
I have looked at the topic title and at no time have I seen where you discussed those issues.
You have DISCUSSED,TIME AND AGAIN,the topic of God,that you do not believe he exists,that you want evidence that he exists,then you refuse to take the steps necessary to acquire that evidence,and you keep coming back to the subject of God,time and again...
Ant it is not just you.
So,I go back to what I stated earlier.
For someone whose mind is convinced God doea not exist,yet,their mind keeps drawing them back to that which they do not believe in,
seems odd.
Therefore my question,,,,What is your mind trying to tell you?
What is it you and your mind are searching for?
You are certainly not looking for the answer as to whether the bible should be taught in Public Schools,because that is not the issue you have been addressing.
That there is a conflict going on in your mind And it is troubling you,is reflected in the anger conveyed in your responses.
You have never asked my opinion on whether the bible should or should not be taught in public schools.
That I can recollect,no one here has.
The discussions have always revolved around the existence or non existence of GOD....Why is that?
Well you are calling most every scientist on the planet "illiterate monkeys". Well I think your Jesus was illiterate, prove me wrong.

If you lived in a world were the majority believed in Zeus, and you did not believe Zeus existed, yet the people wanted to make laws based upon the claims of Zeus, would you not be talking about it on a regular basis?

Put yourself in our shoes for a minute ever once in a while. The fact you made such a statement shows you have not.

Most of us have been believers at one point in our lives, so we know what "evidence" you claim. But if you listened to us, you would know we think this is just how psychology works. Believers think what their mind does is a god speaking to them. We do not believe this is what is happening. We think they are just thoughts, nothing to do with a god. What you think or believe may cause emotions. This is not a god at work, it is your mind at work reacting to what you have been lead to believe.

If what one feels when they think about their superstitious beliefs were "evidence", then all superstitions have "evidence". But of course what you call evidence is not evidence.

“I Am No One Else”

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#102384
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do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
No I haven't.
All I know is that they are produced at higher temperatures in higher elevated clouds. And that the molecular structure is the beginning of that formation, so the shape mimics it.
The structure is a result of the valence of the atoms, actually, same concept in molecular folding, same thing that allows blood to carry oxygen as well. I often refer to it as the polarity of the atoms, which is improper lingo but I can never spell the correct words correctly so it works.

Basically it boils down to this: You know next to nothing about scientific understanding, the actual facts of how the universe works, so instead of taking the time and putting in the effort to learn them, you buy a made up, non-answer in place of them and decide to believe that. Instead of seeking the truth of the matter, you bought a myth from someone else.

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#102385
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do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
So tell me how? Tell me how these natural processes were not put in place by God? How the atmosphere was formed in order to make this snowflake possible?
Tell us how they were put in place by a god? Better yet, show some evidence they were put in place by a god?

“I Am No One Else”

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#102386
May 4, 2013
 

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do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
So tell me how? Tell me how these natural processes were not put in place by God? How the atmosphere was formed in order to make this snowflake possible?
You asked way more than one question, try narrowing it down to maybe two questions then perhaps I will know how to answer them.

“pervinco per logica”

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#102387
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do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
This isn't "gotcha". I want to know what you all think since you think we are morons for believing God had a hand in it.
Why you all are dancing around answering this truly amazes me. Since you throw God out of the picture, I thought you all would have a good solid answer for this since you have claimed there was an infinite amount of evidence for it all.
Instead I have been railed for even asking the question, ridiculed for the way I asked the question, and now have been told to go "blank" off. Really?
If this isn't "gotcha", then why did you move the goalposts? I answered the previous question and a new one gets introduced. NOBODY claimed an "infinite amount of evidence" concerning your new question, fool. Nobody. Stop putting words in other people's mouths. Try reading. And tell me how many times more 1 is than 0.

To answer your new question, or at least the point I think you are trying to play "gotcha" with, I do not have any real opinion of the events that occurred prior to the point in time that the entire universe consisted of a quark-gluon plasma. The underlying principals are not sufficiently well understood for me to form a real opinion concerning that (though I can see where many theories make sense). Other than the fact that baryogenesis had to occur and that if the universe was expanding as we expect it would necessitating multiple force interaction epochs, again, I do not have a firm opinion on how or the specifics of what occurred during this time period (first 10e-20 sec or so).

From that point forward, it is comparatively quite well understood and, as I stated, I agree with the scientific consensus here. I expect that as experiments continue we will gain a better understanding of force and particle interactions at these energies and be able to determine what happened during those earlier time frames with better confidence. This is very much an ongoing thing, and we have learned a staggering amount in the past decade. Particle accelerators are awesome.

Now, to answer your criticism "Since you throw God out of the picture, I thought you all would have a good solid answer for this"... NO. That's just scummy. The lack of an answer doesn't mean you insert God. The lack of an answer means you DO SCIENCE. You figure it out. You don't slap the God band-aid on your lack of knowledge.

And it's not that we "throw God out of the picture". That's broken/stupid Christian logic where you have faith in something therefore it must be valid for others. It's that there is absolutely ZERO reason to insert God into the picture in the first place. He's not there. Until evidence is present that points to the necessity of an all powerful God mucking about in our physics, he will remain not there.

There are many gaps in my knowledge. There is absolutely no reason to think that God occupies any of them. Just as there is no reason to think that 965.473 quadrillion ultra high density pink space unicorns coalesced into singularities all over the universe, and that's why we have black holes.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

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#102388
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curious wrote:
YIAGO WROTE
Well,the following are not prophecies that "remotely sound like it would work for Jesus" they specifically point toward Jesus.And there are many others.
And no,your point does not stand,because the process you used was completely erroneous.
On several occassions,Jesus stood before his adversaries and told them that the Scriptures testified of him.
None dared challenge the validity of his claim
1)"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life.... for in them you hope that you have eternal life, and they testify concerning Me,
2)Deuteronomy 18:15-18 Moses Stated
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said,“Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
Jesus stands up and proclaims that he was foretold...and that is evidence to you? Psychics constantly make predictions then later claim they came true. Do you also accept their words?

That's a lot of BS.

That bit about Moses is also not pointing to Jesus as far as I can tell. It does not name Jesus in any way. There were prophets before Moses, and after. The point of that verse was that the Israelis heard the voice of God directly and it scared their wee pants off so they asked for God to speak through Moses. It is establishing the idea of prophets speaking for God. A nice trick that the various churches could later use to retain their power.

The Catholics built an empire upon it.

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ScienceProves wrote:
<quoted text>
Because the Romans practiced cremation?
(See: Pompeii)
Am I supposed to know what you are eluding to? If you have a point or an idea, explain it.

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curious wrote:
YIAGO WROTE

4)Psalm 22:16-18
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
This psalm describes crucifixion and was written about 1000 years before crucifixion was devised
According to some Jewish scholars, this passage was mus-translated:

"Notice that the English translation from the original Hebrew does not contain the word “pierced.” The King James version deliberately mistranslated the Hebrew word kaari (&#1499;&#1464;&#1 468;&#1488;&#1458; &#1512;&#1460;&#14 97;) as “pierced,” rather than “like a lion,” whereby drawing the reader to a false conclusion that this Psalm is describing the Crucifixion. The Hebrew word &#1499;&#1464;&#14 68;&#1488;&#1458;& #1512;&#1460;&#1497; does not mean pierced but plainly means “like a lion. The end of Psalm 22:17, therefore, properly reads “like a lion they are at my hands and my feet.” Had King David wished to write the word “pierced,” he would never have used the Hebrew word kaari. Instead, he would have written either daqar or ratza, which are common Hebrew words in the Jewish Scriptures. These common words mean to “stab” or “pierce.” Needless to say, the phrase “they pierced my hands and my feet” is a not-too-ingenious Christian contrivance that appears nowhere in Tanach."

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/luthe...

Weak sauce. Where does it name Jesus?

No where.

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Raina wrote:
<quoted text>They were looking for a messiah that had the appearance of a king to begin with. It all started when Jesus was born. You must know the story with King Herod. The message of the Angel spread quickly. Who would have believed the Messiah was born in a stable? Etc. Etc. "That's how the fight started." Yet OT prophecy foretold that He would "come forth as a root out of dry ground, having no comliness that any should 'desire' Him". He came to His own and they received Him not. You know the story. Today the Jews are still at the wailing wall praying for the Messiah to come. It will all be over with one day and they will still be there at the wall. It was never that they didn't get an answer, they just didn't want that answer. It happened just as prophecy claimed it would. Problem is people do not search the Scriptures. All the answers are there if one bothers to look. The Jews have no idea that they have been freed from the bondage of the Law.
I suppose when you base your religion upon the idea that the king is somehow the main man talking to god, I can see why the Jews would expect such.
They think King David was such a man, they think Moses was such a man, so why would they not expect the Messiah not to be such a man?

Of course it is quite stupid to think kings are the man man talking to god. But you base your beliefs upon this concept also if you believe Jesus was a descendant of king David.

But we know most every king in those days made claim they were the one to listen to about what god wants.

Have you watched "The Bible" series on the history channel yet? The story really illustrates this concept. It is a story of politics and how leaders use god to claim authority over people.
You and your kind just have no figured out this is a propaganda tactic that has zero basis in actual truth of a god.

Some political leaders today are fighting to put the bible into schools as part of this propaganda tactic.

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#102392
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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>The structure is a result of the valence of the atoms, actually, same concept in molecular folding, same thing that allows blood to carry oxygen as well. I often refer to it as the polarity of the atoms, which is improper lingo but I can never spell the correct words correctly so it works.

Basically it boils down to this: You know next to nothing about scientific understanding, the actual facts of how the universe works, so instead of taking the time and putting in the effort to learn them, you buy a made up, non-answer in place of them and decide to believe that. Instead of seeking the truth of the matter, you bought a myth from someone else.
Don't assume I know nothing. Your assumptions about my lack of knowledge in science is an excuse to not answer the question apparently.
curious

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#102393
May 4, 2013
 

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_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, but what about David Koresh?
That which I posted "2 postings" addressed the differences between
the Comedy of Errors approach used by Yiagio and my approach,as stated by scriptures.
The differences between the 2 and their validity,is the issue that you should be addressing,which you did not.
That is not surprising,because when you are confronted with a question that you are unable or unwilling to answer,you merely dismiss them as irrelevant or,for fear that the answer will only serve to erode the basis for youer beliefs,will not answer at all.
Your question regarding David Koresh exemplifies how little you know about Scriptures.
He was a false prophet,and he did not fulfill bible prophecy.
Jesus,clearly spoke on that issue,,,By their fruits you will know them....

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