Bible study rules for public schools ...

Bible study rules for public schools proposed

There are 142516 comments on the The Courier-Journal story from Feb 10, 2010, titled Bible study rules for public schools proposed. In it, The Courier-Journal reports that:

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Courier-Journal.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#99610 Apr 13, 2013
TruthIs wrote:
<quoted text>
Now, should you wish to discuss the sociological aspects of Jefferson's own apparent ideals, the "good founding father T Jefferson" in mine opinion, could've used a bit of polishing in granting true freedom to ALL people.
Of course, that was then, and this now...but really if you consider the scenerio, Jefferson had himself quite a little "cult" of his own going on then, now didn't he.
:-)
Actually, Jefferson did a bit of a political balancing act with this letter. The Danbury Baptist Association felt that Connecticut adopting Congregationalism as the official state religion placed them in a position of discrimination.
Jefferson's first draft of the letter explained that he was prohibited from "even occasional performances of devotion" unlike, he said, the way it is "practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church."

Is there something in this that leads you to believe Jefferson intended "separation of church and state" to denote anything more or less than government neutrality regarding religion?
Where do you jump from that to a Jeffersonian "cult?"

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#99611 Apr 13, 2013
why dont you know wrote:
One of the reasons the first amendment was established was to protect religion from the government. But now it's been turned on it's head and is used to protect government from religion. And there is no separation of church and state. That phrase came from a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist minister and is not found in government documents but is used now as a reason to be hostile to religion. If our founding fathers could be aware of what has happened to their form of government, they would be spinning in their graves and wondering why we haven't thrown off the yoke of this modern version of government.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The Barbary Treaties, Article 11
Nov. 4, 1796

When religious factions attempt to coerce government to their own agendas and usurp the collective will of the people, it is not the religions who are under attack - it is the fabric of representative democracy.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99612 Apr 13, 2013
what wrote:
<quoted text>im not sayin that wouldnt be a miracle cuiz it would be. im sayin your friends are liars. cant say it no clearer than that. funny that no one seen it happen, not even the parents. the put him in a closet and he came out fixed....lmao i said the kid could have just been playin a joke on them too. tehre are many factors and u just accepted it all as truth cuz u are part of the group and u think they wont lie to u but reality is everyone lies. especially the more religious they get, for example, the same cripple that gets healed at each new town as the revival travels across the country. hearsay and all that is not a miracle unless there is some proof when everyone knows that everyone lies.
Haha. This ain't no televangelist show, these were friends of mine, with nothing to prove and nothing to gain. They got no publicity off this. They didn't even want many people knowing because they didn't want their lives ruined by our ridiculous media.
It's funny the accusations that you make on this occurrence.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99613 Apr 13, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>What do you think is "miraculous" about a fleshy and cartilaginous piece of flesh knitting? Do you seriously think the parent was going to tug on the ear to see if he could get it to come back off, or do you suppose he was going to keep it compressed in place for as long as possible?

So "worthy males" of the LDS are able to leash the POWER of GOD to their beck and call... umm.. yeah, okay. Worked well enough for Bishop Willard.
The miracle is that it happened in minutes, not weeks.

Who is Willard?
Yes I hold the priesthood as well. The priesthood is the power and authority to act in God's name. the more in tune with the Spirit an individual is, and the amount of faith one has is pivotal in what that person is able to do. It is the same priesthood power that Christ held and bestowed upon the apostles and sent them out to heal the sick. It is the same power used to create the earth and all that you see.
I have been an instrument in God's hands through the priesthood power in two memorable occasions in which doctors were astonished. One was my mother n law who now is cancer free after she was diagnosed with cancer two different times and was given a year to live. The other was a boy that was mauled by the family dog who almost lost his arm. The doctors had already planned a surgery to amputate the next day, but then cancelled the OR after the improvement made overnight in his condition.
I'm sure you'll call BS on this too so I'm sparing myself from typing a lot of detail. If you are truly open minded, I don't mind sharing, but I don't really want to open up to my own personal stories just to be ridiculed and called a liar. Attacks become personal in that case.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99614 Apr 13, 2013
GWB wrote:
<quoted text>Do you believe the moon and sun are inhabited?
No, nor do we think that Brigham's opinion on that was inspired.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99615 Apr 13, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>Except the black ones. They aren't white and delightsome.

Oh..wait...your Prophet got a revelation or phone call from God in the 70s that said, reluctantly, the dark ones can have the Priesthood too.

Kinda right in line with the victories of the Civil Rights movement. Huh...funny that. Sort of like Joseph Smith getting a revelation from God that it's ok to marry multiple women...after he had already been doing multiple women in secret.

Nice.
Most revelations that the prophets received were when they took the initiative to pray and ask God about these situations. Plural marriage was confusing to them because it was so socially unacceptable in the 1800's. So when reading and correcting translation in the Old Testament, when they ran across the scriptures that say prophets were allowed to have more than one wife and concubines, they wanted to know why this was acceptable. Especially in the case if David who had several and he had no sin other than when he lusted after a married woman. The others weren't an issue. And David's son Solomon had a ton of wives and the only sin came when he started taking on wives of different religions that started veering him astray from his own faith. So the answer came that this practice was acceptable and sometimes necessary to further the work of God but it had to be done in the strictest fashion so as to not get out of hand and become about lust. Joseph was told to start this practice again. He was reluctant for over a year because he knew it would end up being the reason he would have friends turn in him and kill him. He also knew Emma wouldn't be happy about it. Eventually he was told that he must begin it or be removed as prophet.
As far as blacks, Joseph had black friends. Some held the priesthood and participated in temple ordinances. In fact, Missouri hated Mormons so bad because of these black friends. They thought Joseph was an abolitionist and that's why they forcefully, by mobs and murder, drove the LDSaints out of Missouri and put an extermination order on Mormons. Up until about 10 years ago it was still legal to kill a Mormon on the spot. The government finally apologized for that.
So anyway, what I see, is that Brigham seemed pretty racist. Joseph did not seem to be. Brigham said several things that do not seem to be inspired as they do not correlate with the church stance. But we know prophets are not perfect, they just have a calling that holds different responsibilities. Not all they say is inspired. They still have their own opinions.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99616 Apr 13, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>See my previous post to Bearsfan because it is intended to answer this one too.

Here's one of the problems I have with what you're saying.

Let's say you have a friend who falls off a ladder and breaks his neck. He's lying on the ground, dying. You pray for him. Immediately following your prayer he wakes up, rubs his neck, gets up, and walks away.

That would be AMAZING. But guess what? It would not be proof that prayer works. That is not how we evaluate extreme claims. Now, if he was bleeding and you applied pressure to the wound we could say the pressure helped stop the bleeding. We've seen that a million times and we know it works.

Prayer is magic. We have no evidence or experience with magic. So making a claim that magic works, even in the extreme neck breaking example, would not be sufficient to prove it. You would have to produce some kind of viable hypothesis and then do experiments or observations to support the hypothesis.

We have done this several times with prayer. Prayer has no efficacy in controlled studies. So the only way to believe in it is to simply have faith. And faith is NOT reality. It is just faith. Baseless, empty, and irrational.

I know that isn't something you will accept but it is a fact. This is how reality works and this is how we navigate reality. We do not do it by faith, we do it by reason and evidence. Otherwise we would have prayed polio away instead of doing it with science.
Who is we?

I believe that advancements in science come through God. Knowledge and good come through God. I can't separate the two and I see it unnecessary to try to run experiments to test for repeatability in cases of prayer because it all depends on the situation which will always be different. God isn't an element on a chart. Neither is faith. He isn't a tool in a drawer or a chemical that is poured from an Erlenmeyer flask. It amazes me that miracles could be performed right in front of someone and they would try to rationalize how that couldn't have been God so they try to prove how it wasn't God at all.
Let's just say you were an Egyptian that witnessed Moses part the Red Sea to let all the Hebrews escape then release in time to destroy the soldiers that went after them. Would you pull out a barometer and start trying to figure out how the wind had to have done that on its own?

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99617 Apr 13, 2013
GWB wrote:
<quoted text>The talking snake in the garden of eden did have a purpose.
I think serpent was figurative. I have called people I work with a snake too. I don't mean it for real. I'm referring to their sneaky, underhanded ways.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99618 Apr 13, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>Obviously that is not the point. Despite the bronze age story of Prometheus, we know that fire has never been a secret of the gods.
Your point was that religion became obsolete as humans learned more about how life ticks. I just don't agree. Learning more is what we are supposed to do, but knowledge at our level doesn't make God irrelevant. But it's human nature to puff up with pride and feel that way. Kinda like when teens feel they know it all and their parents are our of touch. Then somewhere around 30 we realize they were pretty smart after all.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#99619 Apr 13, 2013
Satanic Priest wrote:
<quoted text>Lets see if I can say this so it is understood.
I do not believe. I think that you do believe. I would fight some one over your right to believe, but I will also fight you over some one elses right not to believe.
There are several people posting here that act like they believe but clearly only believe in elevating themselves.
My point is every one has the same rights and no one shall trample them.
I respect that YOU truly do believe, I really do, at the same time I disagree with you.
Understood, but this hasn't been a conversation about rights as far as I have been involved. We can change to that topic if you want though.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#99620 Apr 13, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
The miracle is that it happened in minutes, not weeks.
Who is Willard?
Yes I hold the priesthood as well. The priesthood is the power and authority to act in God's name. the more in tune with the Spirit an individual is, and the amount of faith one has is pivotal in what that person is able to do. It is the same priesthood power that Christ held and bestowed upon the apostles and sent them out to heal the sick. It is the same power used to create the earth and all that you see.
I have been an instrument in God's hands through the priesthood power in two memorable occasions in which doctors were astonished. One was my mother n law who now is cancer free after she was diagnosed with cancer two different times and was given a year to live. The other was a boy that was mauled by the family dog who almost lost his arm. The doctors had already planned a surgery to amputate the next day, but then cancelled the OR after the improvement made overnight in his condition.
I'm sure you'll call BS on this too so I'm sparing myself from typing a lot of detail. If you are truly open minded, I don't mind sharing, but I don't really want to open up to my own personal stories just to be ridiculed and called a liar. Attacks become personal in that case.
Willard Romney, of course.
I give more credit to the mindset of the Centurian's slave than to the Holy Ghost working though the hands of a pompadour headed faith healer.
I'm not one to sling names without warrant. If someone claims as fact that the Earth was completely submerged 4500 years ago and that it should be taught to children as such, I'll call them worse than liar, as there is definite proof otherwise. A torn ear? Cancer in remission? We can meet at the middle and give misunderstanding and lost in translation the benefit of the doubt without any personal angst from either side. I do not relish sharing personal stories because 1)deservedly or not, ridicule of one's life experiences would be inevitable from certain unsavory individuals and 2)just as with family vacation photos, acquaintances don't really care all that much, anyway.

“See how you are?”

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#99621 Apr 13, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Your point was that religion became obsolete as humans learned more about how life ticks. I just don't agree. Learning more is what we are supposed to do, but knowledge at our level doesn't make God irrelevant. But it's human nature to puff up with pride and feel that way. Kinda like when teens feel they know it all and their parents are our of touch. Then somewhere around 30 we realize they were pretty smart after all.
You are comparing the understanding of one group from the bronze age to the accumulated and applied knowledge of all mankind over an additional 2,000 years. The wisdom of religion is believing that scripture has all of the answers. The wisdom of knowledge is accepting that we will never know everything. Human nature is proof that we have no wisdom - we are all members of an insane species.
The 30 year old looks back to when he was 15 - life was simple and he knew it all....religion is the child, reality is the adult.

“I Luv Carbon Dioxide”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#99622 Apr 14, 2013
We can't talk to secular fundamentalists; they can't reason. Tell the pollsters, sure thing, 100%, but don't waste your time. They have an agenda, so do we. Teach your children to learn the custom and prejudice at school, then teach them how to play the system so they can win. Understand your culture.

Bible study rules, don't yell in class.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#99623 Apr 14, 2013
TruthIs wrote:
<quoted text>
In your example such would be an amazing miracle. In other instances however, the effects of prayer have been given serious regard...for whatever reasons. Besides, what's the harm of it, if people aren't blindly reliant when and if other options may benefit for the well being, especially if it's not harming, but rather instead, helping? To insult people over anything, just for the sake of arrogance and promotion solely of ones own persepctive, is just rude and vile.
----------
Spirituality and Prayer-How is it promoted for use?
Some proponents of spirituality in the context of health claim that prayer can decrease the negative effects of disease, speed recovery, and increase the effectiveness of medical treatments. Faith and religious beliefs are also thought to improve coping and provide comfort during illness. Attendance at religious events and services is sometimes linked with improvement of various health conditions such as heart disease, hypertension, stroke, colitis, cancers, and overall health status. Scientific evidence is mixed.
Certain religious groups claim prayer can cure any disease. These groups often rely entirely on prayer in place of conventional medicine. This belief is based on a spiritual rather than a biological explanation of how disease develops. There have been some reported cases of tumor regression occurring after prayer.(See our document, Faith Healing for more information.)
Many people believe the spiritual dimension is important when a person is coping with serious illness. The ability to find meaning in life can be helpful when dealing with cancer, even though it cannot cure the disease. Spirituality may also help us accept illness and death, both for ourselves and for those we love.
Referenced contributors to numerous to mention. The American Cancer Society. 12/7/2012. Web. Retrieved 4/13/2013.
Here's a partial list of children who died because their parents believed in prayer and not medicine:

http://www.masskids.org/index.php...

The list is far from complete. I know of several cases from the last couple of years.

THAT is the harm in prayer.

Prayer, when studied properly, shows no efficacy. Praying has a placebo affect just like meditation, but intercessory prayer - praying for someone else - has no effect on that person's actual illness.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm...

" Seeking to assess the effect of third-party prayer on patient outcomes, investigators found no evidence for divine intervention. They did, however, detect a possible proof for the power of negative thinking.

The three-year Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), published in the April 4 American Heart Journal, was the largest-ever attempt to apply scientific methods to measure the influence of prayer on the well-being of another. It examined 1,800 patients undergoing heart-bypass surgery. On the eve of the operations, church groups began two weeks of praying for one set of patients. Each recipient had a praying contingent of about 70, none of whom knew the patient personally. The study found no differences in survival or complication rates compared with those who did not receive prayers. The only statistically significant blip appeared in a subgroup of patients who were prayed for and knew it. They experienced a higher rate of postsurgical heart arrhythmias (59 versus 52 percent of unaware subjects)."

So in this large study the people who knew they were being prayed for actually did a little worse. A possible explanation is that they *expected* something more miraculous to happen and were basically let down since prayer is magic and magic is not real.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#99624 Apr 14, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyone can describe the simplest activity the way you did and make it sound ridiculous.
Ex
So you mean to tell me you drink this white liquid and it travels trough magical tubes in your body and it comes out a different hole as a solid and it's no longer white?
God is not human the way we understand humanity, but He has a body of flesh and bone. It is a glorified body. But we are His children and have the opportunity to have the same type of body. We were born as spirits before this existence and came here to receive our body and have our faith tested. Our spirit and body will separate at death but because the atonement of Jesus Christ happened, we will be resurrected as He was. Our spirit will reunite with our body and it will be glorified as well. Not so much as a hair lost. Amputees will regain their limbs back with this eternal body.
As hokey as this may sound to you, let me ask you a question. I have fielded many of yours very respectfully. I hope you can open your mind and do the same for me.
If you died, and you were no longer in your body, but cognizant that you were awake and aware as a spirit and surrounded by others in the same state. What would your thoughts be then?
Q described the kind of God you are talking about and how silly it sounds. What you used as a counter example is not even close to that level of science fiction. Also, we have actual daily experience with eating and drinking and pooping. NOBODY has daily experience with a flesh-and-blood wizard that can create people out of dirt.

Outside of playing D&D, that is.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#99625 Apr 14, 2013
Oxymoron wrote:
Good Speech by Glen Beck
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
I call BS. There is no such thing as a "good speech by Glen Beck". The sentence itself has an inherent logical error.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#99626 Apr 14, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Most revelations that the prophets received were when they took the initiative to pray and ask God about these situations. Plural marriage was confusing to them because it was so socially unacceptable in the 1800's. So when reading and correcting translation in the Old Testament, when they ran across the scriptures that say prophets were allowed to have more than one wife and concubines, they wanted to know why this was acceptable. Especially in the case if David who had several and he had no sin other than when he lusted after a married woman. The others weren't an issue. And David's son Solomon had a ton of wives and the only sin came when he started taking on wives of different religions that started veering him astray from his own faith. So the answer came that this practice was acceptable and sometimes necessary to further the work of God but it had to be done in the strictest fashion so as to not get out of hand and become about lust. Joseph was told to start this practice again. He was reluctant for over a year because he knew it would end up being the reason he would have friends turn in him and kill him. He also knew Emma wouldn't be happy about it. Eventually he was told that he must begin it or be removed as prophet.
As far as blacks, Joseph had black friends. Some held the priesthood and participated in temple ordinances. In fact, Missouri hated Mormons so bad because of these black friends. They thought Joseph was an abolitionist and that's why they forcefully, by mobs and murder, drove the LDSaints out of Missouri and put an extermination order on Mormons. Up until about 10 years ago it was still legal to kill a Mormon on the spot. The government finally apologized for that.
So anyway, what I see, is that Brigham seemed pretty racist. Joseph did not seem to be. Brigham said several things that do not seem to be inspired as they do not correlate with the church stance. But we know prophets are not perfect, they just have a calling that holds different responsibilities. Not all they say is inspired. They still have their own opinions.
This is one of the reasons I find religion so nutty. You are doing mental backflips to try to rationalize your church's decisions when it should be a really simple thing to answer.

It doesn't matter if Smith had black friends. The LDS explicitly rejected blacks from the Priesthood - a position that ANY man could have if he was head of a household, correct? So it isn't like they were barred from this one, rare post. They were barred from a post held by virtually every adult male of white skin.

And it was that way for over a hundred years.

That is institutional racism to the max. And it took a secular movement (Civil Rights) to force them to change the rule.

It's complete bullsh*t to say they had to ask God first. God, if he was real, could have stopped that nonsense from day one.

I don't actually care about polygamy. But I find it funny that Smith was already doing the deed before God told him it was OK. He was a huckster after all. I kinda admire him for that, actually. What a card shark.

“There is no god”

Since: Jul 12

War, WV

#99627 Apr 14, 2013
Oxymoron wrote:
Good Speech by Glen Beck
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
There s no such thing

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#99628 Apr 14, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Who is we?
I believe that advancements in science come through God. Knowledge and good come through God. I can't separate the two and I see it unnecessary to try to run experiments to test for repeatability in cases of prayer because it all depends on the situation which will always be different. God isn't an element on a chart. Neither is faith. He isn't a tool in a drawer or a chemical that is poured from an Erlenmeyer flask. It amazes me that miracles could be performed right in front of someone and they would try to rationalize how that couldn't have been God so they try to prove how it wasn't God at all.
Let's just say you were an Egyptian that witnessed Moses part the Red Sea to let all the Hebrews escape then release in time to destroy the soldiers that went after them. Would you pull out a barometer and start trying to figure out how the wind had to have done that on its own?
And that's why you should not make claims about reality that cannot be tested or verified. I don't care what you believe personally, I care about what you claim is true about my reality. I live in the same world you live in. Your rules, if true, would include me. I require evidence to support them, and then I will evaluate them using science and reason.

Faith is not a factor.

Regarding Moses:

Well, the Hebrews were not actually held in Egypt so that entire Bible story is not literally true. Moses never parted any seas. If I witnessed such a thing with my own eyes I might be floored by such a miracle. But I would not expect other people to just accept my story because they think I'm an honest guy. That isn't how we evaluate these things.

Take your prayer story for example. I didn't read the original post but I picked up the details here and there. You have friends whose son had an ear injury that was pretty severe and it healed up in minutes? Is that correct?

If you were a skeptical person you would not accept hat story at face value. Your friend's reputation is irrelevant. He is asking you to accept an event that all good sense and experience cannot support. So your friend, if he wants it to be accepted, is in the position of having a burden of proof. He needs to provide quite a bit of evidence. And we need to see more cases like this that have been documented and confirmed.

Then, and only then, can we begin to say something is going on. Then we get busy figuring it out. We don't call it a miracle and go to church.

Science and faith are not compatible. They are two mutually exclusive ideas. To say that God directs science puts a burden of proof on your shoulders. You need to support that claim about my world with astonishing evidence.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#99629 Apr 14, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
We can't talk to secular fundamentalists; they can't reason. Tell the pollsters, sure thing, 100%, but don't waste your time. They have an agenda, so do we. Teach your children to learn the custom and prejudice at school, then teach them how to play the system so they can win. Understand your culture.
Bible study rules, don't yell in class.
Wrong, the only moral lesson students should learn in school is to question authority, which is contradictory to your religious nonsense.

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