Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 Full story: The Courier-Journal 131,393

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

Full Story
GWB

Roseville, CA

#98872 Apr 7, 2013
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Well,you have said a mouthful,based on your feelings and emotions.
I have given my reasons for my faith,which you automatically discarded and without any basis in fact,you claim that my faith is based on fear of being tortured by God and wanting eternal life.
I never said that I could prove the exitence of God,What I said is that GOD proved his existence to me by answering specific prayers that only he and I knew about.
Now,there is natural evidence that God exists,the Universe,stars,our planet,inhabited by the most sophisticated machine( life form known to man....the human species,among others.
But,many reject this evidence and attribute this immense creation
to some accidental explosion that they can not explain based on facts and then theorize how life came into existence through an evolutionary proces. The problem with that is that,they cannot EXPLAIN how life came into being,because they don't know it occurred
They can not explain how nonliving nonintelligent matter was able to spontaneously come to lihe and create the human species,amomg others.
Does science try to prove the existence of God?Science will never prove the existence of God by using man constructed criteria.
The natural can not prove the supernatural.
Not to be repetitve,God has clearly stated how one may come to know him; If you seek me diligently,you will find me.
To unbelievers that is foolishness,but not to those who believe,have tested his word and found it to be true
What is wisdom to God ,is foolishness to the Godless
What is wisdom to the Godless,is foolishness to GOD
Therefore, Intheir search for widom and knowledge,the Godless have attained unto foolishness.
I don't know that man will someday,be able to grow limbs on amputees,could it happen,yes.This would come about as the result of an intelligent being figuring out the process on how this could be achieved...
It would not come about as a result of nonliving nonintelligent matter spontaneously creating that limb.Or would you believe that is possible? and if so,explain how.
Your faith cannot prove that God exists, that is why i discarded it. Contradictory teachings of the bible by other faiths do not help your arguments for the existence of a God. I will pray to win the super lotto to test if a God of luck exists, then i can say God did it.
curious

Ocoee, FL

#98873 Apr 7, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>
You seem fixated on the origin of life. You criticize science for being unable to explain it, but the same question is just as applicable to your own beliefs.
I'll ask again...where did your god come from? Explain that to me.
I am not fixated on the origins of life.The Bible already provides ME with that information.
What I am fixated with is,the unability of renowned Scientists to
explain how life came into being and expect me to believe that nonintelligent and nonliving matter, spontaneously created life and then evovlved into the human species.
As I stated before,in 1982 NASA confirmed that the elements contained in dirt were also found in the human body.
Previous to that finding,unbelievers mocked the idea that humans were formed out of the dust of the ground.
But now,Sientists agree that man was made from that same nonliving
matter that The Bible had informed us of,thousands of years ago.
What Science can not provide us with is,evidence as to how this nonliving matter came to life,whereas,the bible does.
Your question about "Where did God Come from" meaning,Who Created God? Will hopefully be explained by th folloing article which was published by CARM.

This question is logically problematic. If everything needs a creator, than no matter what exists, it must have been created. Furthermore, to be created means that someone or something had to create it. But then, who created the creator and so on? Logically, this would mean there would be an infinite regression of creators (prior causes), and we would never be able to find the first uncaused cause, since by definition (the question says that "everything needs a creator") there wouldn't be any uncaused cause. This would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal. But, if it exists that there is an eternal regression of creators, then who created the infinite regression of creators? Remember, the question presupposes that all things need a creator -- even the eternal sequence of creators -- which becomes logically absurd. Furthermore, if there is an eternal regression of creators that are eternal, then the question is not answered. In fact, it cannot be answered, since its weakness is that "all things need a creator." Of course, this only begs the question in that how did the process begin? Therefore, the question only raises the same problem it asks, and it is a question that, by its own design, cannot be answered. Therefore, it is invalid.
Continued
curious

Ocoee, FL

#98874 Apr 7, 2013
The question is better phrased as a statement: "Everything that has come into existence was brought into existence by something else." This is a more logical statement and is not wrought with the difficulties of the initial question. In the revised statement, "Everything that has come into existence" implies that the thing that "has come into existence" did not already exist. If it did not already exist but then came into existence, then something had to bring it into existence, because something that does not exist cannot bring itself into existence (a logical absolute). This pushes the regression of creators back to what we would call the theoretical "uncaused cause" since there cannot be an infinite regression of creators as discussed above; and since an infinite number of creators would mean there was an infinite number of creations and created things, including things that cannot be destroyed since they would constitute things that exist. If that is so, then the universe would have had an infinite number of created things in it, and it would be full. But it is not full. Therefore, there has not been an infinite regression of creations.

By definition, the Christian God never came into existence; that is, He is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). He was always in existence and He is the one who created space, time, and matter. This means that the Christian God is the uncaused cause, and is the ultimate creator. This eliminates the infinite regression problem.

Some may ask, "But who created God?" The answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is the one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#98875 Apr 7, 2013
Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
As for Capitalism versus Socialism... Capitalism gives us Electricity, Cars, Vaccines, abundance of food, TV's, Radios and all the tools to fix my motorcycle.... Socialism give you totalitarian rule and mass graves....
Woah, hold on there Sport. I never said a dad blasted thing about "socialism". Big pet peeve of mine is when people jump from a criticism about Free Market Capitalism to Socialism. I think what we have and what we want is a blend of these ideas, certainly not Stalin or Mao or any of that nonsense.
curious

Ocoee, FL

#98876 Apr 7, 2013
GWB wrote:
<quoted text>
Your faith cannot prove that God exists, that is why i discarded it. Contradictory teachings of the bible by other faiths do not help your arguments for the existence of a God. I will pray to win the super lotto to test if a God of luck exists, then i can say God did it.
Again,you err.
I never said that my faith would prove that God Exits.
My personal experiences are real and through those personal experiences I have come to believe in God.
God proved his existence to me
Since YOU did not experience what I did,I can understand the reason for your unbelief, Faith can not be transferred from one person to another.
I know what I experienced,you don't know what I experienced,therefore,your inability to understand...
That does not mean that you are not intelligent,it does not mean that my intelligence is superior to yours....
Anyway,I know that what I experienced is real,I lived it and the fact that someone may have a different opinion or theory about my experience,will not serve to invalidate what I believe is true.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98877 Apr 7, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>This is very rational. It is rare that a religious person comes on a forum such as this (in which many atheists are also posting) and concedes such an important point.

Here is a follow up to what you said:

If we don't know the final answer, does that mean we cannot find ways of getting close to being right? If so, it would mean that all pursuit of knowledge is futile and meaningless. I think that looking around at all the incredible things we've accomplished through careful study, investigation, and trial and error shows that pursuit of knowledge is important. It changes lives. And life is really the only thing we have for sure.

So if we can have knowledge (we virtually wiped out polio...we CAN have knowledge), then there is going to be an optimal pathway to that knowledge. What is the optimal pathway?

Religion did not get rid of polio. It didn't invent the wheel, hand soap, or the Space Shuttle. Reason did all of that. Reason leads to science.

I argue that science *appears* to be the best pathway to finding truth.

This of course has nothing to do with your freedom to believe what you want to believe. I would fight and die for that freedom. I'm just pointing out my view of the world and supporting my view with evidence.

(And lest anyone should pop in and point out that many scientists are also religious...I don't care. Their religion wasn't what led to their scientific discoveries. It was the methodology of science, the application of reason and value of evidence. Newton was a devout Christian but nothing in the theology of Christianity helped him figure out his laws of motion.)
Good point.
Personally, I don't think the two are exclusive. I think that God is the author of our scientific laws (such as gravity) and He operates within those laws normally. We don't fully understand how all these laws work but (to quote from Joe Dirt), it just does. His hand isn't in everything we do directly, but He normally works through other people.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with learning as much as possible while on this earth, on as many useful topics as possible. But I don't see knowledge of science as proof that we don't need God, I see it as proof that a highly intelligent being is behind its conception.
For example, since I am Mormon, I believe that the church that Christ originally set up, is now restored. I do not see it a coincidence that this massive knowledge, and technological boom happened shortly after His church was restored. Inventions like the printing press made it possible to publish the ancient record that was unearthed and translated. The automobile, computers, Internet, etc make it possible to spread God's gospel all over the world in less than a second.
If the gospel would have come forth in the 1200's for example, it would be impossible for the entire world to listen to God's prophet and apostles speak to us, live on TV or internet (which is happening today at what we call General Conference).

These technologies boomed quickly after His church was restored. I say quickly because of the comparison of now vs. all recorded history. It's an exponential curve that takes off in the 1800's. His church was restored in 1830.
So anyway, I know fully well you will not agree, and that's ok, I just wanted to say that because of my beliefs, I see things a little differently, but still agree that science is fascinating and should be explored in almost all facets. I just do not think the goal should be to disprove a creator, nor to prove one.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98880 Apr 7, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>I guess I don't understand your point. Nor do I understand the distinction you're trying to make between "religion" and "view".
While I agree with you that there is only one reality, and there can be only one thing that happens after we die, I disagree with the irrelevance you've placed on the beliefs that we have while alive. You make decisions based on your beliefs, or at least are affected by your beliefs (the fact that we're having this conversation is proof). Some of those decisions could affect other people's lives (e.g., who you vote for, passing a bill to establish a state religion,...etc.). It's not trivial, nor irrelevant.

And it's more than just atheism vs theism. It, to me, is the silliness of Pascal's Wager. If you agree with Pascal and hold the position that it is better to believe than not, how are you to choose the correct god (let alone religion/denomination)? There is no more evidence for any brand of faith than the other.
Sorry to confuse. I was just being very general. I absolutely think it is imperative to seek out the truth. And when I say view instead of religion, it is because most atheists do not consider their beliefs a religion, though their beliefs (or lack of) come with a certain expectation of what will happen in the afterlife. That's why I said view. I could have said opinion, belief, expectations, whatever word you like.

My faith absolutely shaped my life and my decisions. I didn't mean to be so general that you thought my religion, or anyone's, is trivial. I believe it is the main purpose of life.

So how does one find the true church? If that was your question to me, the answer to me will be different than that of a Hindu, for example. My belief is that the truth can be found through the Holy Ghost. Jesus said seek and you shall find. The apostle James said if any of you lack wisdom, to ask of God.
I believe you have to work for it, but He will answer through the Holy Ghost.
webster

Sheridan, AR

#98881 Apr 7, 2013
curious wrote:
<quoted text>
Again,you err.
I never said that my faith would prove that God Exits.
My personal experiences are real and through those personal experiences I have come to believe in God.
God proved his existence to me
Since YOU did not experience what I did,I can understand the reason for your unbelief, Faith can not be transferred from one person to another.
I know what I experienced,you don't know what I experienced,therefore,your inability to understand...
That does not mean that you are not intelligent,it does not mean that my intelligence is superior to yours....
Anyway,I know that what I experienced is real,I lived it and the fact that someone may have a different opinion or theory about my experience,will not serve to invalidate what I believe is true.
...I promise you that others have experienced what you have experienced and didn't belive god had anything to do with it...there's nothing that you've been through, that another human hasn't gone through before, I assure you.
webster

Sheridan, AR

#98882 Apr 7, 2013
...UNLESS, you've been on Ripley's Believe IT OR Not!...not that shit is R-E-A-L...
Known Fact

Cocoa Beach, FL

#98883 Apr 7, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
Young Earth Creationists believe the Earth is 6000 years old, give or take. They arrived at this number by adding up the "begats" in the Jewish Bible.
Science comes up with dates from thousands or billions of years ago by a whole series of dating techniques. They measure the decay rates of radioactive isotopes, check the composition of a rock or fossil, then do the math on how long ago that rock or fossil must have come into being. Here's a link to a page that explains a lot of dating methods.
http://darwiniana.org/datingmethods.htm
And here's a list of various methods used:
Superposition
Stratigraphy
Dendrochronology
Radiocarbon C14
Radiometric Dating Methods
Obsidian Hydration Dating
Paleomagnetic/Archaeomagnetic
Luminescence Dating Methods
Amino Acid Racemization
Fission-track Dating
Ice Cores
Varves
Pollens
Corals
Cation Ratio
Fluorine Dating
Patination
Oxidizable Carbon Ratio
Electron Spin Resonance
Cosmic-ray Exposure Dating
And if you cross check these different lines of evidence they tend to confirm each other. In other words, using one method might get you a date of 1.2 billion years. Another method might get you 1.4. Another might get you 1.25. See the pattern? So when it comes to these really ancient dates the best you can do is get relatively close.
I mean seriously. If this isn't enough evidence for the accuracy of scientific dating methods then you are not a person who is capable of accepting evidence.
True Bible knowledge knows the Earth is more than 6,000 years old. The Bible does not state how old the earth is! The account starts in the Bible book of Genesis by saying "In the begenning God created the heavens and the earth." Then it goes forward to preparing the earth for habitation...plant life, animal life then Humans! Humans have been on earth near 6,000 years and the fossil record supports that fact! The Bible is not at odds with Scientific fact but it does not support the fairy tale of evolution. Some try to pass off Evolution as scientific fact but nothing could be farther from the truth!
curious

Ocoee, FL

#98884 Apr 7, 2013
Satanic Priest wrote:
<quoted text>You lie like a christian. Evolution has not been refuted.
So your brain chemistry gives you a "high" when you get a religious fever now that is proof of your god ROTFLMFAO at you. You are a special kind of stupid arn't you. Here, let me misspell a word to make you feel better, dog
Evolution has been refuted by many scientists and scholars. That there are other scientists and scholars that still maintain a belief in evolution,is also true.
Obviously,I did not make myself very clear,or at least,not clear enough to your limited understanding.
Your limited unmderstanding is further confirmed,by trying to
tell me what it was that I experienced,since your opinion is based on something you know absolutely nothing about,thereby making you the least qualified to voice an opinion.
Moreover,since you need resort to insults,in order to justify your factless theory , let me leave you with this thought.
If Evolution is true,then one can conclude that YOUR intellect could evolve into a more sophisticared intellect,in which case,YOU would probably evolve back to YOUR origins,nonintelligent matter.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#98885 Apr 7, 2013
Revelation 1:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Known Fact

Cocoa Beach, FL

#98886 Apr 7, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry to confuse. I was just being very general. I absolutely think it is imperative to seek out the truth. And when I say view instead of religion, it is because most atheists do not consider their beliefs a religion, though their beliefs (or lack of) come with a certain expectation of what will happen in the afterlife. That's why I said view. I could have said opinion, belief, expectations, whatever word you like.
My faith absolutely shaped my life and my decisions. I didn't mean to be so general that you thought my religion, or anyone's, is trivial. I believe it is the main purpose of life.
So how does one find the true church? If that was your question to me, the answer to me will be different than that of a Hindu, for example. My belief is that the truth can be found through the Holy Ghost. Jesus said seek and you shall find. The apostle James said if any of you lack wisdom, to ask of God.
I believe you have to work for it, but He will answer through the Holy Ghost.
ARE YOU A GENUINE CHRISTIAN?
It is vital for each person who claims to be a Christian to answer this question positively. Why? Because God’s approval depends thereon. Christianity is not merely a belief or a label, but a way of life. Does your way of life reflect Christ’s example? Does your religious practice match the Biblical quality of the early Christians?
The apostle Paul invites us:“Put yourselves to the proof, to see whether you are holding the Faith. Test yourselves.”(2 Corinthians 13:5, The Twentieth Century New Testament) To this end, we invite you to check the following short list, while looking up the cited scriptures in your own Bible.
1. Do you participate in national or political loyalties that cause divisions among professed Christians?—1 Corinthians 1:10; John 18:36; James 1:27.
2. How do you define Christian love?—1 Corinthians 13:4-8.
3. Do you, in practice, endeavor to show true neighbor love? How?—Matthew 22:39; John 13:34, 35.
4. Are you kind, tenderly compassionate and forgiving toward others?—Ephesians 4:31; Romans 12:10.
5. In your daily life, do you avoid lying, stealing, cheating and the use of obscene and abusive language?—Ephesians 5:3-5; 4:25-31.
6. Are you inclined to think that sexual morality is of minor importance?—Mark 7:20-23.
7. Do you tend to excesses in eating and drinking?—Proverbs 23:20, 21; Ephesians 5:18.
8. Do you try to communicate true Christian faith to others by word and deed?—Romans 10:9, 10; 1 Corinthians 9:16.
At what conclusion do you arrive? Do true Christians really exist today? Do you know of any who earnestly try to live like Christ and at the same time make a real effort to communicate their Christian belief and way of life to their neighbors? Does your own religion in fact teach and practice genuine Christianity? Or is this just an attractive label or impressive signature?
If you do not already know them personally, we suggest you take a closer look at Jehovah’s Witnesses in your vicinity and see if they are conscientiously endeavoring to measure up to the Bible standards considered above. If you do not know where they are located, we will be glad to help you to get in touch with them.—Isaiah 43:10-12; Acts 11:26.
www.jw.org

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98887 Apr 7, 2013
curious wrote:
The question is better phrased as a statement: "Everything that has come into existence was brought into existence by something else." This is a more logical statement and is not wrought with the difficulties of the initial question. In the revised statement, "Everything that has come into existence" implies that the thing that "has come into existence" did not already exist. If it did not already exist but then came into existence, then something had to bring it into existence, because something that does not exist cannot bring itself into existence (a logical absolute). This pushes the regression of creators back to what we would call the theoretical "uncaused cause" since there cannot be an infinite regression of creators as discussed above; and since an infinite number of creators would mean there was an infinite number of creations and created things, including things that cannot be destroyed since they would constitute things that exist. If that is so, then the universe would have had an infinite number of created things in it, and it would be full. But it is not full. Therefore, there has not been an infinite regression of creations.
By definition, the Christian God never came into existence; that is, He is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). He was always in existence and He is the one who created space, time, and matter. This means that the Christian God is the uncaused cause, and is the ultimate creator. This eliminates the infinite regression problem.
Some may ask, "But who created God?" The answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is the one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.
That has to be the longest-winded rephrasing of "Because the bible told me my god is eternal" I've ever seen. I pulled a sympathetic muscle watching the gymnastics you just went through.

So, after all that we're right back where we started. You reject science, and ignore all of it's supporting evidence in favor of your magic book that has no evidence supporting it because science doesn't yet have all the answers (and maybe never will).

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98888 Apr 7, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry to confuse. I was just being very general. I absolutely think it is imperative to seek out the truth. And when I say view instead of religion, it is because most atheists do not consider their beliefs a religion, though their beliefs (or lack of) come with a certain expectation of what will happen in the afterlife. That's why I said view. I could have said opinion, belief, expectations, whatever word you like.
My faith absolutely shaped my life and my decisions. I didn't mean to be so general that you thought my religion, or anyone's, is trivial. I believe it is the main purpose of life.
I see, probably my fault for butting into a conversation without having read the previous posts.

Now, I'm confused about something else:
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
So how does one find the true church? If that was your question to me, the answer to me will be different than that of a Hindu, for example. My belief is that the truth can be found through the Holy Ghost. Jesus said seek and you shall find. The apostle James said if any of you lack wisdom, to ask of God.
I believe you have to work for it, but He will answer through the Holy Ghost.
How do you "know" that the Hindu isn't right? Or are you contending that all religions are valid.
curious

Ocoee, FL

#98889 Apr 7, 2013
-NEPHILIM- wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry but could you give me an example of "gentle manly terms"?
Upon going back and reading what I posted,I can well understand your confusion...My apologies
Gentlemanly terms does not adequately convey what I was trying to express.
here is the point I was trying to make.
Yiago and I were coming to terms in order to discuss his beliefs on Evolution and my belief I God.
I did not want this discussion to end up with insults being flung around as has happened with others,who resort to insults.
Guess the right term would be,Gentlemanly manner
Hope that clears it up...Next time I get on the computer gotta make sure I have that 2nd cup of coffee
Known Fact

Cocoa Beach, FL

#98890 Apr 7, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>
I see, probably my fault for butting into a conversation without having read the previous posts.
Now, I'm confused about something else:
<quoted text>
How do you "know" that the Hindu isn't right? Or are you contending that all religions are valid.
There can only be ONE TRUE RELIGION! It's like 2+2=4, you can give billions of wrong answers to that simple addition but it would still be 4. John 8:31,32...“If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, 32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.”

It's ust that simple!
Known Fact

Cocoa Beach, FL

#98891 Apr 7, 2013
IT IS THAT SIMPLE believe it or not!
Known Fact

Cocoa Beach, FL

#98892 Apr 7, 2013
Jesus said at: John 8:31,32 ...“If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, 32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.”
IT'S THAT SIMPLE believe it or not!
Known Fact

Cocoa Beach, FL

#98893 Apr 7, 2013
If you would like help in learning the TRUTH contact Jehovah's Witnesses in your area or go on line to www.jw.org

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